264 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Quicksilver, I know what they are whining about, they've STATED it clearly multiple times, they do NOT want to have ANY negatives to their chosen toys. They toss out bs about 'but what about THESE Mechs, they aren't competitive, why can't you make them better and NOT nerf the god tier!' or bs about how ALL Mechs need to be more even on their usefulness, like Mcgral did. And that's all it is, pure bs trying to defend their position that THEIR toys need to be left alone, do something to something ELSE, preferably a negative to the OTHER side. Seriously, are you NOT reading what's being posted?

I ignore most of the single posts or those who have no logical reasoning behind them, at the same time you assume the vocal minority speaks for all clanners everywhere and that anyone against this nerf is pro-clanner. This is what I find to be BS, not all of us think because of top performers that blanket nerfs are called for. In fact, this has been sort of a tradition when it comes to PGI because often the outliers have caused blankets nerf that remove all but those outliers from any sort of competition. I'm also taking into consideration, that clan players aren't a bunch of whiners because THE EXACT SAME THING would happen were the roles reversed. Actually, I remember the IS beating Clan tech originally because of how powerful Poptarts were when clans were introduced (pre-JJ and I believe pre-PPC nerf).

Yes, they want their toys to be left alone because some of them really are terrible at the moment. Outside the SDR-5V/5K, the Mist Lynx really is terrible, about on par with the Mando going from my stats (granted my W/L ratio in the Mist Lynx was higher, so that may have tainted that a little). They are both sad little mechs. So yes, blanket nerfs are bad unless these bad mechs are given some sort of compensation. Since power is also relative, you could always buff the opposite end of the equation (that is buff IS mechs in general), either way this hurts the poor performs in the Clans and the quirks are gonna have to be a lot better than what we got to incentivize their usage.

I will also point you to this, just because someone is "whining" about a perceived problem, doesn't make them wrong about the problems existence simply because they are "whining"...figured I'd put that out there.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 March 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Mist Lynx is terribad, sorry.


It didn't need to be, if it were an IS mech, it could be a better Death's Kneel, but because it's a Clam mech, it's terribad. Simple as that. Underengined, poor hardpoints, hardwired equipment that hurt it more than benefit it.


Fridge is in a similar place, with a ducking huge engine, which is completely unnecessary. It's a worse Jenner, at best. The coming of the D arm will make it less terrible, to only be Bad instead of Terribad.

Mr Gargles is also going to be improved after the paywall is up, to be a worse Nova instead of....well, just plain Bad.



Just as the IS has terrible mechs, so do the Clams. More than 4 viable robots would be nice. Viable doesn't mean easy mode, it means it's not hard mode.


But, sorry, I forgot.

CLAMS OP PLZ BLANKET NERF!11!

I've seen a number of players who enjoy those Mechs, some of them even do amazingly well in them, so your opinion on them is just that, YOUR OPINION, not a factual statement of reality. I know people that can't use a Dire to get a single kill no matter WHAT they use on it, but they jump in a Nova and they can't be stopped. By YOUR logic, the Dire is a terribad Mech and the Nova is a god tier.

I'm not advocating to nerf the Clans just BECAUSE! The side torso destruction with the loss of the XL crits in a Clan Mech SHOULD have a penalty, why is that so hard to understand? This WILL impact the IS you realize, and it may well prelude the addition of actual engine criticals across the board, which I for one would love to see, and I'm far from alone in that. We asked for it before this game was in alpha testing, we were told it would be added in the future during closed beta, and guess what? It's the future... You only see this as a nerf, totally without any reason for happening other than no skilled whiners from the Underhive complaining about how OP the Clans are, you cannot possibly fathom this having some other reason because you don't actually want balance, you want to keep your advantage.

Balance means give and take for both sides, not just 1 side. I fully expect there to be changes to quirks if this ST XL loss change is actually implemented, they will need to seriously dequirk a lot of the IS Mechs, and that's a good thing in my opinion, and I play as IS in CW.

Personally, as I've stated before, I EXPECT the Clan toys to be OP, I'm perfectly fine with that as a player who'll be FACING that OP faction, I've done it before in previous MW titles where it was possible. I enjoy the challenge of facing and defeating a superior opponent, so does the rest of SRM, we're always IS, we much prefer the challenge of a superior opponent instead of taking candy from babies, but we're weird like that. We feel that an undeserved win is pointless. But we're not designing MWO, and the majority of the playerbase does NOT like to face superior opponents who's superiority is based soley on equipment instead of skill, so PGI has to take some liberties with the game's core of BTech in order to achieve balance while still keeping that superior equipment. That's the reality of MWO, has been since this game was announced almost 4 years ago now, something so many people ignored and are just NOW seeing. Clans are OP, pure and simple, by design originally, and making a game based on BTech where you have IS vs Clan, that's going to be an issue. You can't design it for the purists, you won't make any money. You have to design it to appeal to the masses, which means far more balance than people who want to be Clan really want to see, after all it's a PvP game, can't have 1 side being so OP, it won't fly. Critics will pan the game, players will refuse to play IS, screaming, crying, gnashing of teeth, dogs and cats living together in peace, total chaos!

Quicksilver, I know a few people who love the Mechs people claim are terribad, they do quite well in them as well so I have to think it's more a matter of perception than reality. Buddy of mine can't use a Dire to get a single kill, but he does awesome in a Nova. I'm of the opinion that the Summoner is a POS, but my CO in SRM swears by the Summoner, and he gets amazing results out of it, again, perception and reality.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Viable, for the most part, means not a chore to pilot, because of speed, hitboxes, weapons, etc...

So Maddog and Warhawk wouldn't fit within this rather broad definition?


Locusts (6 chassis)
Firestarters (5)
Jenner (4)
Panther (3)
Huggin, Raven 3L (2)
BJ-1X, Arrow (2)
Centurions (5)
Enforcer 4R (1)
Hunchback (6)
Griffin (4)
Shadow Hawk (6)
Wolverine (3)
Dragon 1N (1)
Jeager (4)
Thunderbolt (4)
Illya (1)
Battlemaster (6)
Stalker (6)
Banshee (4)
Atlas DDC, Atlas S (2)
King Crab (3)

So, that's (I think my math was right ) 78. 78/157 (I recounted twice, I think 163 is the number, and I left out the Hopper and Zues...). If you add the maddog and warhawk to the pile of 'viable' based on your definition, that puts the IS and Clans pretty frackin close(49% to 46%) of each other.
Naturally, there is wiggle room and debates to be on what might fight from the IS side into that definition, though I feel I was being somewhat generous by including the whole range of some chassis. A reasonable argument could also be made for the Nova to fit into this broad definition you have put forth, though I'm not pushing that.

Now, if you think the Maddog and Warhawk don't fall into your definition (which seems you don't because you keep pushing only 4 mechs as 'viable' ), then, I suppose there is no discussion to be had.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 18 March 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Ghogiel, on 18 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Gauss in a TBR is a very good thing. If it weren't then the 2 common gaussvomit builds wouldn't be as popular as they are. It has basically superceded the laservomits in popularity.

I have a gauss/laservomit build in every clan chassis that i could make it in....They do much better especially vs IS LL quirked to god level.

SMN
TBR
DWF
ADR (yes, GAUSS ADDER!)

[KraftySOT]

Im not up on the last hour or twos whine fest...but are you guys saying there are more than 10 or so total viable mechs?

'Cause thats not right.

[Revis Volek]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 18 March 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

So Maddog and Warhawk wouldn't fit within this rather broad definition?


Locusts (6 chassis)
Firestarters (5)
Jenner (4)
Panther (3)
Huggin, Raven 3L (2)
BJ-1X, Arrow (2)
Centurions (5)
Enforcer 4R (1)
Hunchback (6)
Griffin (4)
Shadow Hawk (6)
Wolverine (3)
Dragon 1N (1)
Jeager (4)
Thunderbolt (4)
Illya (1)
Battlemaster (6)
Stalker (6)
Banshee (4)
Atlas DDC, Atlas S (2)
King Crab (3)

So, that's (I think my math was right ) 78. 78/157 (I recounted twice, I think 163 is the number, and I left out the Hopper and Zues...). If you add the maddog and warhawk to the pile of 'viable' based on your definition, that puts the IS and Clans pretty frackin close(49% to 46%) of each other.
Naturally, there is wiggle room and debates to be on what might fight from the IS side into that definition, though I feel I was being somewhat generous by including the whole range of some chassis. A reasonable argument could also be made for the Nova to fit into this broad definition you have put forth, though I'm not pushing that.

Now, if you think the Maddog and Warhawk don't fall into your definition (which seems you don't because you keep pushing only 4 mechs as 'viable' ), then, I suppose there is no discussion to be had.

WHk does not fit into Viable, he is a NICHE mech as well as the MDD. They do not have the capabilities of their counterparts.

[KraftySOT]

The Splatdog is niche?

What are you guys smoking?

Can I have some?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Quicksilver, I know a few people who love the Mechs people claim are terribad, they do quite well in them as well so I have to think it's more a matter of perception than reality. Buddy of mine can't use a Dire to get a single kill, but he does awesome in a Nova. I'm of the opinion that the Summoner is a POS, but my CO in SRM swears by the Summoner, and he gets amazing results out of it, again, perception and reality.

That's still anecdotal evidence, and adds about as much to the thread as giving me a screenshot of a game where you got 1000+ damage in a Mist Lynx. Most comp players you will find have love for a terrible mech as well, but they still recognize that it needs help.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

DarthRevis, on 18 March 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

WHk does not fit into Viable, he is a NICHE mech as well as the MDD. They do not have the capabilities of their counterparts.

You think that these two mechs do not fit into this:

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Viable, for the most part, means not a chore to pilot, because of speed, hitboxes, weapons, etc...

...definition of Viable? If that's the case, I can drop quite a few IS mechs off from my list.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 18 March 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KraftySOT, on 18 March 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

The Splatdog is niche?

What are you guys smoking?

Can I have some?

The Mad Dog is the worst of the Clan heavies atm, it is relegated to boating SRMs or SSRMs and it isn't near as tanky or as good as the Timby brawlers. It is the Nova of the heavies in a way.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 March 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

No Mcgral, I don't expect to see more than 3 or 4 competition Mechs for either faction, no matter how many Mechs we end up for each faction. This WILL always be the way it is for the top competition players, if you think otherwise, you've obviously not played many games of any sort at the top levels. The BEST are just that, the best, for whatever the reason, they perform best over all other choices, be it by a small percentage margin or by an overwhelming margin, they top everything else. We're given a limited tonnage for our drop decks, so it WILL always be 3 or 4 top Mechs, if that many.

As for the non-top tier Mechs, they are NOT terribad, they just are not top tier, HUGE effing difference and you damn well know it, or if you do NOT know it, you should not be saying a thing about balance. Just because YOU personally can't use anything but the god tier Mechs doesn't mean everyone has that problem. I see people running around in non-god tier Mechs every single drop in the non-CW drops, pug and team. I see them in CW as well, both with teams and pugs. I only see players dropping in god tier ONLY Mechs with certain large units, and that's a VERY small percentage of the player base, and they won't use anything that's not the BEST OF THE BEST, and you know it. And it CHANGES for the IS every 2 damn weeks.

Quicksilver, I know what they are whining about, they've STATED it clearly multiple times, they do NOT want to have ANY negatives to their chosen toys. They toss out bs about 'but what about THESE Mechs, they aren't competitive, why can't you make them better and NOT nerf the god tier!' or bs about how ALL Mechs need to be more even on their usefulness, like Mcgral did. And that's all it is, pure bs trying to defend their position that THEIR toys need to be left alone, do something to something ELSE, preferably a negative to the OTHER side. Seriously, are you NOT reading what's being posted?

Lily, that's funny, really, it's funny. Nice emotionally based argument there, since PGI has been real clear that they DO check the stats, hence the 240 Clan vs 250 IS drop deck change, evidently the NUMBERS show the Clans are a bit OP. For once PGI is taking small steps to correct an issue, instead of their typical super over reactionary 'fixes' to issues. Too bad their stats are based on totally bs numbers huh?

I know competition play, you can try that argument all you want Lily, but it holds NO water here, there is NO competition scene in MWO right now. Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional, this game has a barely functional netcode, HSR is hit and miss, hitreg is so hit and miss it's not even funny, and it'll change during a drop. Balance across the board is totally non-existent due to the simple fact that the backbone of ANY online game, the netcode, isn't stable or working properly. What the hell kind of competitive scene can you possibly have when the ENTIRE balance of power shifts every 2 weeks due to changes in 'balance' that aren't based on anything solid? Good gods, do you people realize how many weapons, quirks and other things will have to be TOTALLY redone once HSR is working solidly and hitreg is 90% accurate for the majority of the playerbase? Don't try to tell me about competition play, you obviously don't have an effing clue if you think THIS is what it is.

so its emotional when i see facepalming loadouts on my opponents that i would not use because they are juts bad builds? no its not.

and your logic still flawed, so we do nee changes now, because balance, yet we should accept not to get the right balance, because thats not the scope. you contradict yourself in your own post.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

You expect more than 4 of 13 robots to be viable.

More than 4 are viable. If you want to define viable as 'top tier competition worthy,' of which only 4 clans are, then for the IS you literally only have 1 viable mech. A Firestarter. And that's not even really about it being top tier, a FS9 isn't going to sway a competitive match between two top tier teams. There's just a lack of options.

In the medium, heavy, and assault category, clans all have better mechs.

[KraftySOT]

Tier 1: Stalker STK-4N | Banshee BNC-3E
Heavies


Tier 1: None

Mediums

Tier 1: None

Tier 1: Firestarter FS9-S | Raven RVN-2X | Firestarter FS9-A

Now id say the Dragon 1N isnt the worst thing in the world, but i just dont like its DPS. The Grid Iron isnt that terrible either, but again. DPS.

What were we talking about again? The fumes in here are making me light headed. Are you sure thats weed?

WM Quicksilver, on 18 March 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

The Mad Dog is the worst of the Clan heavies atm.

Only because its deficient of ECM, and being a Timberwolf.

Otherwise its ridiculously solid in the Splat role. Though. You should just bring MOAR DOOMCROW in CW. But theyre not at all bad, or niche.

Theres a plethora of people who rock them simply because you get tired of MOAR DOOMCROW.

Of course the Clan has to deal with Lights, Tier 1, not a damn thing.

Adiuvo, on 18 March 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

More than 4 are viable. If you want to define viable as 'top tier competition worthy,' of which only 4 clans are, then for the IS you literally only have 1 viable mech. A Firestarter. And that's not even really about it being top tier, a FS9 isn't going to sway a competitive match between two top tier teams. There's just a lack of options.

In the medium, heavy, and assault category, clans all have better mechs.

Psst, you have two Firestarters, A Wubshee and a Stalker who thinks its a Supernova.

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 18 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've seen a number of players who enjoy those Mechs, some of them even do amazingly well in them, so your opinion on them is just that, YOUR OPINION, not a factual statement of reality. I know people that can't use a Dire to get a single kill no matter WHAT they use on it, but they jump in a Nova and they can't be stopped. By YOUR logic, the Dire is a terribad Mech and the Nova is a god tier.

Again contradiction. so you say its fine that the bad clanmechs get also nerfed because you know some doing well in them?
In that case with this logic we would not need any clan nerfs, because I also know people doing well in IS mechs, actually doing far better in IS mechs than anyone does in clanmechs. ave you seen the Lord doing the amazing CW score in dragons? thats what a IS mech can do. But many IS palyers just fail doing this. would they be able to pull 80% of that we would need buffs for clanners. That is a fact.

your logic once again flawed and you can not keep your logic up across 3 postst without contradicting yourself.


And just because someone does well in a bad mech does not mean the mech is good, most of these pilots know how much better the other mechs are.


So how about you show the clanmechs able to throw this out

http://mwomercs.com/...92-match-score/

lern 2 play your mechs IS. because the truth is the majority of them and even many experienced can not do this properly. Thats why the S"statistics" show bad numbers, thats why clanners get nerfed. Not because the mechs are better.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 March 2015 - 12:46 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And well the quirked 2X, is just the most annoying thing on earth if youre in a heavy or assault.

I see them take down assaults in a salvo or two. People put XLs in the dumbest things.

[KraftySOT]

And its not a "nerf"

Technically youve been running this entire time with far less of a penalty than you should have. Now granted, they went all "we ruined your pay for play mechs as soon as they went to errybody" on your clam gundams, but its something that pre-exists MWO as a Thing™ and if youre endeavoring to slowly add more and more systems and devices from Battletech, this was inevitable, just like the current penalty is now.

The degree of that penalty, should directly represent the spirit of the ruleset thats exist long before there was an MWO.

From Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries...you freaking children...

[color=#333333]XL engines weigh HALF as much as regular engines but take up 3 slots in each side torso (2 for clan). After 3 engine hits, your mech is destroyed! Since 3 engine slots are in each side torso, losing 1 side torso can kill you! Clan mechs with XL engines are slightly safer. They can lose a side torso and still function, barely. Every engine hit increases your heat level a few points! With 2 engine hits, you could overheat just by walking around, if you only have 10 single heat sinks and you're on a hot world. This is why after a bad exchange with another mech, you just can't seem to fire as fast without overheating even though you have fewer weapons left...[/color]

Edited by KraftySOT, 18 March 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 March 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

The Mad Dog is the worst of the Clan heavies atm, it is relegated to boating SRMs or SSRMs and it isn't near as tanky or as good as the Timby brawlers. It is the Nova of the heavies in a way.

I'm pretty sure the Summoner is the worst of the Clan Heavies. *shrug*

[KraftySOT]

Say it with me now.


Nineteen. Ninety. Six.

Two Thousand. Fifteen.

[KraftySOT]

Lily from animove, on 18 March 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Have you seen the Lord doing the amazing CW score in dragons?

Have you ever played with 11 other really good players? Because youre missing something key here.

When the rest of your team is a professional **** ball, you can do an insane amount of damage. He could do that in a Highlander with nothing but a small laser and streak srm2 as well.

Thats a horrible, horrible example. The things someone CAN do with a Mech doesnt make that mech good or mean anyone else outside of those circumstances can either.

I can round up a bunch of goons and take 12 Gauss spiders and do an insane amount of damage too, trolling a bunch of clan pugs.

That doesnt make the Gauss Spider a tier one uber awesome meta mech. Which is the same thing as "viable". Because theres absolutely no reason you should ever drop in anything thats automatically at a disadvantage.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 18 March 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Psst, you have two Firestarters, A Wubshee and a Stalker who thinks its a Supernova.

The A is a gimmick, and the Banshee and Stalker aren't top tier competition worthy. They're both heavily outclassed by a Daishi.

Also don't say 'you.' I don't care about the distinction between clan and IS lore wise when it comes to game balance or picking what I drive.

Edited by Adiuvo, 18 March 2015 - 12:54 PM.