264 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

I'm all for the idea. As long as stock configs on IS mechs are mandatory.

[KraftySOT]

This is also why democracy is a cesspit of stagnation, corruption, and stupidity.

Despite something being the right thing to do, everyone sees it as a personal issue, and if slighted, must extract some sort of 'vengeance' from the other party in retribution, namely in the way of nerfing something they have, that isnt actually broken.

No one actually cares about balance, or the rules, or the franchise.

They just care about their robot, and their ability to grind the rail. Their ability to pad stats that no one else can see.

[Fate 6]

GeneralArmchair, on 17 March 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

Hmm, speed reduction still sounds a hell of a lot better than death. I think you're still getting a great deal.

Interclan balance still gets murdered by this change though. In fact, it makes the worst of the clans even worse while only minorly affecting the best of the clans because the Storm Crow and Timber Wolf have the best ST hitboxes of the clan mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

That's a Faulty Generalization Krafty, but the message is spot on.

[BARBAR0SSA]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

The IS mechs dont have the firepower of Timberwolves and Stormcrows without packing IS XL's
and dont have the durability unless they use STDs, which gimps firepower.

So no.

These 2 mechs are the source of a stupid amount of balance issues, so them losing 10kph isnt going to kill them

Nerf 2 Overpowered mechs or nerf all Clan mechs. HMMMMM....

Just a few awesome IS models off the top of my head (with comparable damage) they aren't all just trash you know some quirks make them worthy of being

STD Stalker 4N 54 Alpha with LL/ERLL, 3/3 firing you are a dps machine and can easily leg a timber before it even gets a second alpha off

STD Banshee 3E 3 PPC + 2 AC5 = 45 PPFLD fire and turn yeah it's 60 KPH but you're with 11 other mechs protecting you as well and that's most of CW is a nice hit and focus 1 target.

Thunderbolt 5SS, 42 Point alpha for low heat, with super fast laser burn time should almost be considered PPFLD. Extra structure quirks, no weak location holding all weapons. Runs STD engine ~80KPH

(This is XL but worthy of mention due to DPS) Dragon 1N...only does 10 dmg per shot but it does over 20 Damage per second (1.66s cooldown with 62% AC5 cooldown) a few of them together....mmm leg wrecking goodness. That's pretty much like the UAC DWF in terms of DPS.

(XL as well but worthy of mention since it's directly comparable to the ice ferret tonnage wise) BJ-1DC the weakest of the bunch but it does a great job as a brawler putting 45 damage on 1 location without spreading it out all over and some nice cool down quirks means you can be wrecking a bit of face then turn to your shield arm

Edited by shad0w4life, 17 March 2015 - 08:37 AM.

[RussianWolf]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 March 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm all for the idea. As long as stock configs on IS mechs are mandatory.

And Stock configs on clan mechs would also be mandatory. You would be able to switch pods, but the load out of the pods would be fixed.

[Lily from animove]

Hyper99, on 17 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Your marbles are out of order. IMO, the one reason clan/IS is so imbalanced is due to the clan XL engine. It is the single reason clan mechs are so hard to take down. It's like ALL clans are running standard engines without any of the weight drawbacks but all the health benefits. I agree a speed reduction is a question idea, however, it would certainly make things better balanced. Maybe start with 10% cooling, 10% speed. But it's got to be something....anything.

you know this is untrue for many clanmechs, at least I hope you know. Clan mechs are not hard to take down at all, their CT's are usually quite big and not hard to hit. Otheriwse if you don't know then it may explain why they seem to be hard to be taken down for you.

Voivode, on 17 March 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

I have a large stable of mechs including both Clan and IS. When I run my IS mechs, I don't really feel jealous of any of the Clan equipment, it all comes with its upside and downside compared to IS tech.

The exception to that? Clan XL engines. Oh man I wish I could slap one of those in so many of my IS mechs. Those engines are hands down the best piece of equipment Clans get.

Would you also use these clan XL engines if you can only choose a fixed one size? if your FS9 would only be able to run 112kph? and has to sacrifice a whole ton for a flamer? Ah yeha and on top of that, only 4E like the adder has.
Would you also choose it if your hunchback is then not allowed to use ES/FF together with the Xl and had much more heat on it's lasers?

suddenly the clan Xl is not that appealing anymore when iot comes with further restrictions.



You all know what? for a single month I woudl liek to see completely unlocked tech. where IS and clanners can have the entirely free construction rules as the IS has, and both sides can use both Xl engines and both weapons. You would all be very surprised how many things would be different and how many stuff would actually still be IS tech.

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

So, when this comes in, can my Mist Lynx get an isXL engine with the limitations removed?

Drop the BAP, drop one JJ, then crank everything into engine.

It can mount a 250 XL, which means 10 TrueDubs. It also means 162 Kph without Speed Tweak.

That's with 4 tons of pod space left. 177 Kph with 4 cSPLs sounds pretty glorious, if you ask me. 5 JJs means it only flies slightly worse.



That is how gimped Clam lights are. I'd gladly take the "inferior" isXL if it meant I could use that gundam and not the hardlocked 175.

That is what a laod of players does not understand, they all like dogs follow their alpha doggy making woof woof, clans OP woof woof.

KraftySOT, on 17 March 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

This is also why democracy is a cesspit of stagnation, corruption, and stupidity.

Despite something being the right thing to do, everyone sees it as a personal issue, and if slighted, must extract some sort of 'vengeance' from the other party in retribution, namely in the way of nerfing something they have, that isnt actually broken.

No one actually cares about balance, or the rules, or the franchise.

They just care about their robot, and their ability to grind the rail. Their ability to pad stats that no one else can see.

I care about balance, you obviously not, or if you do, you probably do not know what horrible effects this change on the balance will have for a majority of clanmechs. The holy trinity will be even more chosen then than before. Because they get affected only a bit, but those dead mechs are then just even more dead.

This idea od a change is bad for balance, and it's not about protecting any robots. It's about balance which gets screwed because PGI is not willing to nerf the few clanmechs being too strong.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Blanket nerfs won't help is vs clan balance.

It's going to shoehorn more ppl to run crows and timby's, and there will still be the same out cry to nerf clans, when that isn't the problem. Then clanners are going to get real bored and quit or switch.

They spent how many years balancing IS vs IS? Still couldn't do it, but you'd think they could apply some of that logic to clans.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

That's a Faulty Generalization Krafty, but the message is spot on.

Name one Democracy that isnt full of bloat, career politicians, and stagnation. Im not saying its a bad paradigm. Stagnation means no one agrees on anything. There was no stagnation when the NDSAP took power in Germany. Stagnation is ok. Take for instance the ongoing evenly split Clan vs IS balance stagnation and tiny increment balance adjustments. Its because balance is actually pretty good.

On the other hand, its also a failure of design. Ideally you should have the mechanisms in place to keep improving, even when special interests gets involved. Say "The comp crowd" or "the whales" or "the Oil lobby".

Too many cooks in the kitchen. And all the cooks are self interested and pragmatic.

People dont think about whats right for everyone, they think about whats right for themselves. When you allow many voices to influence decisions, you get whats right for the influential, not necessarily whats right for everyone. Because people dont care about that. Again not that im saying less people making decisions leads to whats right for everyone either. But you do see almost every time someone has to make a concession whether it be right or wrong, they demand a concession from someone else, regardless of if its right or wrong, simply because theyre self interested and feel slighted.

Edited by KraftySOT, 17 March 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

RussianWolf, on 17 March 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

And Stock configs on clan mechs would also be mandatory. You would be able to switch pods, but the load out of the pods would be fixed.

Yep.

[Kain Demos]

KraftySOT, on 17 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Name one Democracy that isnt full of bloat, career politicians, and stagnation. Im not saying its a bad paradigm. Stagnation means no one agrees on anything. There was no stagnation when the NDSAP took power in Germany. Stagnation is ok. Take for instance the ongoing evenly split Clan vs IS balance stagnation and tiny increment balance adjustments. Its because balance is actually pretty good.

On the other hand, its also a failure of design. Ideally you should have the mechanisms in place to keep improving, even when special interests gets involved. Say "The comp crowd" or "the whales" or "the Oil lobby".

Too many cooks in the kitchen. And all the cooks are self interested and pragmatic.

People dont think about whats right for everyone, they think about whats right for themselves. When you allow many voices to influence decisions, you get whats right for the influential, not necessarily whats right for everyone. Because people dont care about that. Again not that im saying less people making decisions leads to whats right for everyone either.

Your Liao tag suits you.

[KraftySOT]

Kain Thul, on 17 March 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Your Liao tag suits you.

The Central Committee of Expanding Bureaucracy would like to thank you for your patronage. Would you please fill out these three forms completely, to receive this thank you.

[Lily from animove]

RussianWolf, on 17 March 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

And Stock configs on clan mechs would also be mandatory. You would be able to switch pods, but the load out of the pods would be fixed.

While I think the mech customisation is an awesome and fun part of the game, I guess it's probbaly not too bad sicne things went too mad with all the min max stuff and the way to big heatscale. dualgauswolfves with 8 CERML's wtf? why? Behemoths have been created that never should have existed.

maybe restrict mech construcion rules only to:
be allowed to downgrade weapons by lower tonnaged ones.
Add equipment and upgrades and ammo.

So people can put in case, DHS, SHS, tc's or more ammo. but the min maxing went out of hand destroying too much true customisation for the favor of some "stong and only worthy loadouts"

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

While I think the mech customisation is an awesome and fun part of the game, I guess it's probbaly not too bad sicne things went too mad with all the min max stuff and the way to big heatscale. dualgauswolfves with 8 CERML's wtf? why? Behemoths have been created that never should have existed.

maybe restrict mech construcion rules only to:
be allowed to downgrade weapons by lower tonnaged ones.
Add equipment and upgrades and ammo.

So people can put in case, DHS, SHS, tc's or more ammo. but the min maxing went out of hand destroying too much true customisation for the favor of some "stong and only worthy loadouts"

See I have no issue with any of this as I usually run all my mechs stock for a good while anyway. I'm just starting on mastering my Wave 1 and 2 mechs, the Wave 2s I haven't touched at all yet (Only modded a couple of my wave 1s like the Nova prime (switched some of those mediums to smalls). So to me, these nerfs will not be noticed as much.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 17 March 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Name one Democracy that isnt full of bloat, career politicians, and stagnation. Im not saying its a bad paradigm. Stagnation means no one agrees on anything. There was no stagnation when the NDSAP took power in Germany. Stagnation is ok. Take for instance the ongoing evenly split Clan vs IS balance stagnation and tiny increment balance adjustments. Its because balance is actually pretty good.

On the other hand, its also a failure of design. Ideally you should have the mechanisms in place to keep improving, even when special interests gets involved. Say "The comp crowd" or "the whales" or "the Oil lobby".

Too many cooks in the kitchen. And all the cooks are self interested and pragmatic.

People dont think about whats right for everyone, they think about whats right for themselves. When you allow many voices to influence decisions, you get whats right for the influential, not necessarily whats right for everyone. Because people dont care about that. Again not that im saying less people making decisions leads to whats right for everyone either. But you do see almost every time someone has to make a concession whether it be right or wrong, they demand a concession from someone else, regardless of if its right or wrong, simply because theyre self interested and feel slighted.

But nobody cares about Balance is a faulty generalization.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

you know this is untrue for many clanmechs, at least I hope you know. Clan mechs are not hard to take down at all, their CT's are usually quite big and not hard to hit. Otheriwse if you don't know then it may explain why they seem to be hard to be taken down for you.

Point taken. Some of the clan mechs are easier to take down sure. But, so are some of the IS mechs. The point is that there are a select few clan mechs that can take a beating from 5 mechs, and last a minute. You won't see ANY IS XL engined mech do that. Period.

[Tesunie]

KraftySOT, on 17 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Clan mechs should be -2 MPs (-40kph) and +10 heat every 10 seconds when they get their 2 engine crits destroyed losing a ST.

If that kills you from overheating. So be it.

Don't forget that you still have (in most cases) those 20 internal heat sinks (10 DHS that do 2 dissipation). Producing 10 heat would just negate 10 dissipation from your engine sinks. In theory, you should never overheat just from the heat caused by a side torso destruction.

As far as losing 40KPH, I think I'd rather see a percentage instead of a set 40KPH penalty. This way, mechs like the Direwolf wouldn't be almost immobile (just about as bad or worse than losing a leg?). I'd rather see it so that the "average" mech speed (90 KPH?) would lose around 40 KPH. I would also like to see, if this was placed in, that the top speed lost would not affect your max speed when you lose a leg. (AKA: If you lose a leg and a side torso, you move at whichever individual speed is slower: The speed of losing a leg compared to your normal max cap, or the speed reduction from losing a side torso.)

[FupDup]

I'd rather have a 10% speed loss and ~50% engine heatsink loss than 20% speed loss and 20% engine heatsink loss.


(-10% basically removes Speed Tweak)


Also, the Speed Retention module should cancel out the penalty. Maybe it would be useful then...

Edited by FupDup, 17 March 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 March 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

But nobody cares about Balance is a faulty generalization.

Very true. Ill amend my state to "Almost no one cares about balance".

I cant say you or Bishop for instance dont care in an altruistic franchise loving manner.

[Flaming oblivion]

God damn you PGI you suck


Now if I lose a torso in my already vastly superior mech weapon wise slot wise range wise etc, I will lose a barely noticeable amount of speed , but still be alive to keep doing damage.

This is unacceptable as IS xl mechs when they lose a torso flat out die

I must keep my clan mech ridiculously op.

/end sarcasm.

Little bit more info mathematically the best mech per weight class

Light - Firestarter

medium - Stormcrow

Heavy- This ones hard its pretty tight between the timby and HBR but I think the timby edges it overall.

assault- Dire wolf

Notice something ?

And this nerf wont remove the clans from superiority in 3 of the 4 weight classes.

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 17 March 2015 - 10:13 AM.