264 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

If your Timberwolf goes 100kph, this change would drop your top speed to 80kph. Mind you, this is due to having an entire side torso and the engine hardware in it being destroyed, effectively taking 2/3rds of your total engine offline. 20% of your top speed is lost with the destruction of an entire side of the Mech's torso and 2/3rds of it's engine...20%.....

I mean, it's not like we're talking about making a KitFox drop from 106kph to 40kph here, we're talking dropping from 106kph to 84.8kph after the entire side torso has been blown off. I know, that's just...

I wonder if any of the people QQing so hard will have the decency to be embarrassed now...not giving any odds on that though.

We are also talking of a heat dissipation nerf. and the speed penalty will mostlikely even be more than using a STD engine of the weight as the XL.

No IS player would even start using an IS mech at 106kph, yet the clanmechs be able to even go below? guess what every decent clanpilot would prefer going 130kph+ and die form ST loss instead of this abomination not able to do something proper its just plain pointless to run around like this. Then maybe going STD would even make mroe sense than having a slightly better top speed with speed loss + heat penalty.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified

this is the base adder prime, I would then prefer to take out the XL, and put in a STD 195 + an external DHS more.

simply because 106,9 XL vs 99.3STD will grant me being a zombie decay (yay zombie flamer) but I stay free of the horrible downsides of losing a ST which happens very easily to a light sized like the adder with just 106kph + tweak Those lousy 7.6 kph are not woth to go XL and the two extra DHS will also not make that much of a difference at all.

So lets guess the speed penalty would be 10% thats losing 10.6 speed on the adder, ending with 96,3 kps. (given its only 10% an not even 20%)

So I would the definately prefer downsizing to a STD engine in my adder knowing to have a cosntant speed and knowing how the mech behaves in every situation (speed and heatwise).

or I would slam in some S(P)ls and go with very big XL engine. (even if ST would mean death)

But this current "somewhere inbetween" speed is a a bad trap of nonsense.

[Richard Warts]

Quirks > nerfs.

Clans did not need this nerf.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

We are also talking of a heat dissipation nerf. and the speed penalty will mostlikely even be more than using a STD engine of the weight as the XL.

No IS player would even start using an IS mech at 106kph, yet the clanmechs be able to even go below? guess what every decent clanpilot would prefer going 130kph+ and die form ST loss instead of this abomination not able to do something proper its just plain pointless to run around like this. Then maybe going STD would even make mroe sense than having a slightly better top speed with speed loss + heat penalty.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified

this is the base adder prime, I would then prefer to take out the XL, and put in a STD 195 + an external DHS more.

simply because 106,9 XL vs 99.3STD will grant me being a zombie decay (yay zombie flamer) but I stay free of the horrible downsides of losing a ST which happens very easily to a light sized like the adder with just 106kph + tweak Those lousy 7.6 kph are not woth to go XL and the two extra DHS will also not make that much of a difference at all.

So lets guess the speed penalty would be 10% thats losing 10.6 speed on the adder, ending with 96,3 kps. (given its only 10% an not even 20%)

So I would the definately prefer downsizing to a STD engine in my adder knowing to have a cosntant speed and knowing how the mech behaves in every situation (speed and heatwise).

or I would slam in some S(P)ls and go with very big XL engine. (even if ST would mean death)

But this current "somewhere inbetween" speed is a a bad trap of nonsense.

This is why I didn't give any odds...

You picked Clan, you knew what that meant before you started getting Clan Mechs, we ALL were told about the engines on OmniMechs, it's not something that was sprung on us suddenly or anything like that. I know people who got their Wave 1 pre-orders refunded for non-swapping engines only, despite that being straight out of the BTech rules from day 1 with the Clans and they KNEW it, still ticked them off so they got their money back.

You don't like having an actual penalty associated with having superior tech? Wow, color me shocked!

Could you at least serve some crackers and cheese?

*edit*
You really should pay more attention, that heat loss penalty, it's been in for a bit already, THAT'S how horrible it is, you didn't even realize it was there already.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 17 March 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

You really should pay more attention, that heat loss penalty, it's been in for a bit already, THAT'S how horrible it is, you didn't even realize it was there already.

Because the heat loss isn't going to make up for losing half (or more of the weapons on board the mech). The only clan mech I've ever noticed it in was a Hellbringer, and they tend to have everything on one side.

[SJ Kidzin Wirth]

It's bit off topic but still balance. So like new Zeus came out right? 810m on large lasers just from quirks. Less heat, less duration then Clan ones. Great, balanced, fair etc.

[Lily from animove]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

This is why I didn't give any odds...

You picked Clan, you knew what that meant before you started getting Clan Mechs, we ALL were told about the engines on OmniMechs, it's not something that was sprung on us suddenly or anything like that. I know people who got their Wave 1 pre-orders refunded for non-swapping engines only, despite that being straight out of the BTech rules from day 1 with the Clans and they KNEW it, still ticked them off so they got their money back.

You don't like having an actual penalty associated with having superior tech? Wow, color me shocked!

Could you at least serve some crackers and cheese?

*edit*
You really should pay more attention, that heat loss penalty, it's been in for a bit already, THAT'S how horrible it is, you didn't even realize it was there already.

No one picked clans, we are mostly free to change.
All this rubbish change will do is turning some of the last hardcore fans from some underused bad clanmechs to go even more for SCR and TBR. thats counterbalance at all.
And probably many even go bakc to IS, suddenly rocking the house with the IS mechs being better than clanmechs. Agaian counterbalance in this.

I know the heat penalty is already there, but when I could use a STD instead a XL I could avoid the entire heat penalty to take place bcecause a blown off ST is not going to trigger any penalty. Thats an opportunatey the clans don't even have to begin with. Getting used to different heat behaviors in a mech is if you try to max its potential a lot harder. So using STD is a way better thing to master a mech because now two different heatbehaviors trigger for many different map heats on top. which basically doubled the knowledge about heat you have to gather and consider a lot, because terra therma, then in the caldera, cold map, ....... . truly maxing a mech is a bit more than just running and gunning in a one button config. It's knowing exacty when can i shoot how often withot having to waste time by looking at the heatscale.
But many Is players are not even capable to undertsand how to use the hardpoint locations correctly, so I doubt they ever nderstand these deeper stuff.

Kidzin, on 17 March 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

It's bit off topic but still balance. So like new Zeus came out right? 810m on large lasers just from quirks. Less heat, less duration then Clan ones. Great, balanced, fair etc.

this is the next thing, when IS has quirks esceeding the clans so far, that they run more heat efficient even with clans having 2crit dubs and lighter LL's how is that nerf still needed? And further how does one think will the clans bad mechs ever survive this nerf? They simple don't except they will get massive quirks, which then is just again getting nerfed to getting buffed. insetad of directly nerfing the clanmechs that are the balance issue.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Richard Warts]

Kidzin, on 17 March 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

It's bit off topic but still balance. So like new Zeus came out right? 810m on large lasers just from quirks. Less heat, less duration then Clan ones. Great, balanced, fair etc.

Exactly,

Quirks > nerfs. Instead of making other mechs lousier, make the terrible ones better. Once that is all said and done if balance is still an issue make tweaks to the quirks to correct this.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Dunno i would actally not do this.

perfectly filled:



wouldn't increase or decrease my engine size here.

because going lower, to a 370 means I lose an internal DHS that i cna not equip somewhere else.due to crits being filled. and going up? also not much sense. the difference is marinally.

I would if the JJ's are unlocked, use another DHS in this build and put a BAP in. or keep a single JJ for some weird map locations to hop over pepples that make me stuck (which we unfortunately do have). Or just up the leg armor. So yes one or two mor tons free would still find use, btu I would not want to lose the engine internal 5th DHS which you get from below 375 engines.

So in my opinion, this is already the perfectly sized engine for the TBR.

That's because you are running a pure energy boat, if you run the Gauss Vomit version, you gain 1 ton and have 2 crits to spare. Were the other ballistics or LRMs better, that optimization would be an improvement as well since it is a little ridiculous that the Clans only viable weapons outside of the Gauss are all low tonnage and decently hot weapons.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Lily from animove]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

That's because you are running a pure energy boat, if you run the Gauss Vomit version, you gain 1 ton. Were the other ballistics or LRMs better, that optimization would be an improvement.

no one runs lrms today, and gauss in the timber are also not really a good thing, other laodouts are just better.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

no one runs lrms today, and gauss in the timber are also not really a good thing, other laodouts are just better.

Due to lack or wieght from that big ass engine.......

[Richard Warts]

One mistake I notice A LOT of players make on both sides is that they will try to take on their opponent at their opponents optimal range rather than at their own. Consistently making the same mistake over and over again. Rather than learn from this they whine in the game or on the forums stirring up an outcry for a nerf. While there have been many instances of nerfs in the past being necessary up until now the game had finally come to a pretty good balance between Clan and IS tech.

This nerf could potentially lead to future ones down the road except it will be IS next on the chopping block. Unintended consequences of penalties like this one could for example cause already conservative in playstyle pugs to hide more in match than they already do...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

gauss in the timber are also not really a good thing

Only if you don't have the timing down, it is better overall than the laser vomit Timby imo, people way too often undervalue a heat neutral weapon in a hot loadout. ERML + Gauss is one of the best combinations for Clan mechs in general, especially once they fix the gauss explosion ignoring CASE bug.

I also imply LRMs are bad because if they were better (just like Clan ACs), the gain of 1 ton for 2 crits would be a nice addition. Energy only builds require more crit space than ballistics/missiles past a certain threshold of energy weapons, it is why the Hellstar is impressive because it would've been easier to build it with 2 ERPPC and 2 Gauss than 4 ERPPC.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 02:56 PM.

[Yokaiko]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Only if you don't have the timing down, it is better overall than the laser vomit Timby imo, people way too often undervalue a heat neutral weapon in a hot loadout. ERML + Gauss is one of the best combinations for Clan mechs in general, especially once they fix the gauss explosion ignoring CASE bug.

That is kind of a killer there. Its the main reason I haven't used C-gauss in forever.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lily from animove, it's funny, but you had a Clan Wolf tag just a little bit ago....hmmm. See, I guess you weren't locked in there, as you said, you are free to change factions and unless you actually PLAY as a Clan player, you will change factions, often going to whichever side has the most perceived power, little thing that some players do, we've got entire teams that do it in MWO, switching from Clan to IS back to Clan in CW, depending on how the 'balance' is working after any given patch. I'm sure you've seen it too....

This is a balance issue, it should have always been in the game, Clan Tech is superior, yes, but it needs to have some balancing acts done because this IS a PvP game and most of the players don't have a clue about BTech nor do they give a surat's furry rear end about it, they want BALANCE! Balance means, naturally, that THEY get the advantage while the enemy doesn't, so balance between the sides will always been off according to the sides. This is something that will effect the IS later on, and it will probably end up with some of the higher power quirks the IS gets right now being toned down, at least I hope so, some of them are just effing STUPIDLY high. And I'm an IS faction player!

[Lily from animove]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Only if you don't have the timing down, it is better overall than the laser vomit Timby imo, people way too often undervalue a heat neutral weapon in a hot loadout. ERML + Gauss is one of the best combinations for Clan mechs in general, especially once they fix the gauss explosion ignoring CASE bug.

I also imply LRMs are bad because if they were better (just like Clan ACs), the gain of 1 ton for 2 crits would be a nice addition. Energy only builds require more crit space than ballistics/missiles past a certain threshold of energy weapons, it is why the Hellstar is impressive because it would've been easier to build it with 2 ERPPC and 2 Gauss than 4 ERPPC.

gauss may be heat neutral, but its very heavy and consumes ammo as well (and crit slost). which means the remaining energy weapons will suffer cooling due to the lack of DHS available. so while the gauss is heat neutral, the entire synergy of the laodout suffers. and going slower with the tbr is another risk of beign hitable too easily, in peeking maneuvers.the dire is a good example how due to lost of cristlots and weight, gauss cna work very well together with many energyweapons. But on timberlevel these both loadouts compete with eachother in synergy effects.

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Lily from animove, it's funny, but you had a Clan Wolf tag just a little bit ago....hmmm. See, I guess you weren't locked in there, as you said, you are free to change factions and unless you actually PLAY as a Clan player, you will change factions, often going to whichever side has the most perceived power, little thing that some players do, we've got entire teams that do it in MWO, switching from Clan to IS back to Clan in CW, depending on how the 'balance' is working after any given patch. I'm sure you've seen it too....

This is a balance issue, it should have always been in the game, Clan Tech is superior, yes, but it needs to have some balancing acts done because this IS a PvP game and most of the players don't have a clue about BTech nor do they give a surat's furry rear end about it, they want BALANCE! Balance means, naturally, that THEY get the advantage while the enemy doesn't, so balance between the sides will always been off according to the sides. This is something that will effect the IS later on, and it will probably end up with some of the higher power quirks the IS gets right now being toned down, at least I hope so, some of them are just effing STUPIDLY high. And I'm an IS faction player!

some clanmechs were the worst even before IS buffs happened, and some is mechs have already as you mentioned gotten "stupidly" high buffs. What d you think after that engine nerf will you have to do to bring those bad clanmechs even into slightly competitive areas? this will require more stupidly quiks even.

yes my clan wolf tag si gone i have not choosen loyalists, because I would join clan hells horses if they ever get available.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Kristov Kerensky, on 17 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

This is a balance issue, it should have always been in the game, Clan Tech is superior, yes, but it needs to have some balancing acts done because this IS a PvP game and most of the players don't have a clue about BTech nor do they give a surat's furry rear end about it, they want BALANCE!

That is why I prefer IS over clan.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

gauss may be heat neutral, but its very heavy and consumes ammo as well (and crit slost). which means the remaining energy weapons will suffer cooling due to the lack of DHS available. so while the gauss is heat neutral, the entire synergy of the laodout suffers. and going slower with the tbr is another risk of beign hitable too easily, in peeking maneuvers.the dire is a good example how due to lost of cristlots and weight, gauss cna work very well together with many energyweapons. But on timberlevel these both loadouts compete with eachother in synergy effects.

Laser Vomit Timby (2 LPL-4 ERML)
DHS: 24 (-3.96 HPS)
Alpha: 54
HPS: 10.38

Gauss Vomit Timby (5 ERML-Gauss)
DHS: 20 (-3.4 HPS)
Alpha: 50
HPS: 7.46

Those LPLs combined are 12 tons, and require even more DHS to actually be made efficient. Gauss on the other hand is 12 + however much ammo you need (3 tons for non-CW matches). So you lose about 1/8 your ability to cool but also drop your heat generation by 1/4.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 03:15 PM.

[Lily from animove]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 March 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Laser Vomit Timby (2 LPL-4 ERML)
DHS: 24 (-3.96 HPS)
Alpha: 54
HPS: 10.38

Gauss Vomit Timby (5 ERML-Gauss)
DHS: 20 (-3.4 HPS)
Alpha: 50
HPS: 7.46

Those LPLs combined are 12 tons, and require even more DHS to actually be made efficient. Gauss on the other hand is 12 + however much ammo you need (3 tons for non-CW matches). So you lose about 1/8 your ability to cool but also drop your heat generation by 1/4.

yes but I have weapons that perfectly synchronise with my CERML due to the lack of "projectile flight time" on top I can in a suprise action instantly fire all weapons, while you will not always keep your gauss charged, so you need longer to retailiate a ambush. The vomit wolf is more CW capable, because of not having to rely on ammo, and lasers don't blow off (which case does not prevent to spread). because your 20DHS 5 CERML Wofl is quite low on ammo tbh. So there are a lot more negative effects ontop of that in the gauss build except heat.
Further more, 1/8 less cooling means also less heattreshold, decreasing the heat treshold means having less "heat ressource" to turn into damage by energyweapons.and less heat ressource to generate by them.
And your gauss build is asymetrical, which makes it more situational.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 March 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Mikros04]

I play IS so of course I like this adjustment. I'm also all for letting clanners have more flexibility with their engines, but that's because I'd rather face a clan mech with a standard engine, fewer weapons and fewer heatsinks. Against a fresh mech I'm still going to be aiming for the CT regardless. I best most clanners would be switching back to that XL almost immediately.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

yes but I have weapons that perfectly synchronise with my CERML due to the lack of "projectile flight time" on top I can in a suprise action instantly fire all weapons, while you will not always keep your gauss charged, so you need longer to retailiate a ambush. , and lasers don't blow off (which case does not prevent to spread).

You do realize it takes less time to charge up gauss than it does for the ERML to burn its full duration right? You can also time it so that when you peek, you are firing your Gauss immediately and lay into them with lasers. Projectile flight time for the Gauss is 2000m, which is tied for fastest projectile with the AC2, it isn't hard to aim with, even with lasers.

CASE is supposed to stop Gauss explosions, but is currently bugged and a fix is expected soon, so that is a different issue.

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

The vomit wolf is more CW capable, because of not having to rely on ammo

As for CW, yes, it doesn't work the best for it, but that is more to do with the design flaws of CW than the design of the mech.

Lily from animove, on 17 March 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Further more, 1/8 less cooling means also less heattreshold, decreasing the heat treshold means having less "heat ressource" to turn into damage by energyweapons.and less heat ressource to generate by them.
And your gauss build is asymetrical, which makes it more situational.

You aren't generating as much heat per alpha though, so that lower threshold doesn't mean anything since I can still alpha more than the laser vomit. If you asymmetrical builds are a bad thing, you may want to look at what is used by the more competitive teams.

Look, both are good mechs, but the Gauss vomit build is definitely not a bad build like you seem to suggest and is actually a fairly common combination as far as clan mechs go.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 17 March 2015 - 03:40 PM.