Clan Mechs need to have equal opportunities in Mechlab before they get any blanket nerf. PGI's decision to lock equipment changes in the Clan Mechlab has made each mech wildly different in DPS out-put and you know PGI is nerfing based on all Clan Mechs being a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf and not a Summoner or Nova which are very hard to compete with or even make a functional build.
I rate the Timber Wolf as equal to the Jagermech or Thunderbolt and the King Crab as greatly superior to the Dire Wolf so each faction has stand-out mechs.
Also, because of DHS 1.4, Clan Energy weapons hit a heat cap very fast and Inner Sphere have to load 3xERPPCs to hit theirs, if they are not Cool Quirked of course. So while Clan ER lasers are lighter they require much heavier heat sinking. Like you can run 4 ER mediums with 12-14 DHS with some over heating, but add two more and not even 23 DHS will make the mech run without shutting down on the third or fourth shot. Just pointing out that looking at the DPS is meaningless without adding the heat and weight and smaller payloads Clan mechs have to work with.
To do a blanket nerf like the proposed ST nerf without ruining the bad mechs further the Clan Mechlab would have to allow FF Armor and Endo Internal switch-outs. This would put all Clan mechs on equal footing for the most part. Otherwise you have a lot of under performing Clan mechs, mechs that are much worse than almost any IS mech, actually getting hit by nerfs instead of buffs.
1
Enough With The Clan Blanket Nerfs.
Started by Aiden Skye, Mar 17 2015 07:54 PM
124 replies to this topic
#42
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:04 AM
I am for nerfing anything that's Overpowered.
when ever it's clan or IS.
but now Clan is nowhere compare to the Powerhouse of IS.
IS have more firepower, quicker burst and armor.
clans have aahhhh aaaa target computer and ahh that's it.
IS mechs need a nerf or Clan need a buff.
when ever it's clan or IS.
but now Clan is nowhere compare to the Powerhouse of IS.
IS have more firepower, quicker burst and armor.
clans have aahhhh aaaa target computer and ahh that's it.
IS mechs need a nerf or Clan need a buff.
#43
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:10 AM
Where is this Clan Blanket and how do I equip it?
#44
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:26 AM
I have all of the clan mechs, and I play mostly IS these days. I still do pretty well in both, only time I am scared of Clan is either I am a medium going up against a direwolf then again who wouldn't be? OR playing a light mech without engine upgrade and get chased around by Stormcrow, and this was because I dont have enough cbill to buy the xl engines
P.S. Clan is not that oped. The only big difference is just weapon range and speed. Those lasers are pretty damn hot to fire in close range fights. I found Clan mechs get neutered quite frequently in a close range fight, either due to arm loss or complete torso loss. ST mounted space for clan isnt that great, the one with good ST layout tend to be the better mechs
P.P.S. During the hero event, I took on 3 mechs with my Ilya at the same time, and I destroyed a direwolf +3 mechs in the end. Direwolf fell during the part of the fight when I was engaged with 3 mechs at the bottom of the canyon. We went from a guarantee loss to a win. (it was 6v3 situation, my allies are pretty much dead and I was about 80%) Direwolf was lightly damaged, and so were the other IS mechs. It really depends on how you play.
P.S. Clan is not that oped. The only big difference is just weapon range and speed. Those lasers are pretty damn hot to fire in close range fights. I found Clan mechs get neutered quite frequently in a close range fight, either due to arm loss or complete torso loss. ST mounted space for clan isnt that great, the one with good ST layout tend to be the better mechs
P.P.S. During the hero event, I took on 3 mechs with my Ilya at the same time, and I destroyed a direwolf +3 mechs in the end. Direwolf fell during the part of the fight when I was engaged with 3 mechs at the bottom of the canyon. We went from a guarantee loss to a win. (it was 6v3 situation, my allies are pretty much dead and I was about 80%) Direwolf was lightly damaged, and so were the other IS mechs. It really depends on how you play.
Edited by HellAvenger, 18 March 2015 - 09:50 AM.
#45
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:42 AM
Clans have plenty of inherent advantages across all mechs. Theoretically, blanket nerfs should work. So why aren't they working in practice?
Clan Inherent Advantages:
1. XL Engines without the ST vulnerability (diminished but not neutralized by the new speed hit)
2. Lighter, smaller, longer range weaponry
3. Smaller Endosteel and FF upgrades
4. Smaller Double Heatsinks
5. Free CASE
6. The existence of Targeting Computers
Clan Nerfs:
1. Less pinpoint ability for all weapons (mostly due to longer durations) besides ERPPC, CGauss, MGs, Flamers, SRMs, and LBX
2. Inability to carry heavy weapons with lower arm actuators
**I am not including, for better or for worse, anything having to do with mechbuilding. These are only the advantages and nerfs that affect actual combat.
That seems pretty darn fair on paper! So where did it go wrong? Why is PGI unable to properly balance the SCrow, TWolf, HBR, and DWolf with their IS competitors without putting the other clan mechs at a disadvantage?
#1. Omni capability. Thanks to PGI's insistence on basing clan mechs on their lore, the TWolf and SCrow are completely impossible to limit hardpoint-wise without violating some of their traditional configs. Others are more easily limited, but those are precisely the mechs that don't need it. TWolf in particular has access to numerous hardpoints of all three types on both the arms and torso as well as JJs, and also has no fixed equipment to limit its available weight. The fact that most clan mechs do not possess this flexibility means that TWolf is already superior to most of them.
#2. Weight. This doesn't come into play in CW, but in PUGs where tonnages are grouped by weight class, it certainly helps that the SCrow, TWolf, and DWolf are all at the top of their respective classes. The other clan mechs, without the ability to fine tune their engine sizes and weight upgrades, are automatically at a disadvantage because they can't use as much tonnage.
#3. It's no mistake that the best clan weapons in the game are the ones that PGI was unable to separate from their IS counterparts. The cERML+cLPL combo is pretty much a ghost heat-less version of a LL-boat. The cSRMs are smaller and lighter than their IS counterparts with no drawbacks. The CGauss is just patiently waiting for the right mech able to dual- or triple-mount it to become the most OP weapon on the field. The rest of the weapons are crap in comparison.
Put #1, #2, and #3 together and what do you get? A whole bunch of cERML+LPL+cSRM SCrows and TWolves running around wrecking everybody in seconds while every clan mech not blessed with the ability to cram a half-dozen of those weapons on it without penalty is feeling the full brunt of the clan nerfs meant for the SCrow and TWolf. It's like using a horse tranquilizer on a dog--it's simply too much. We need to either have all horses or all dogs and use a tranquilizer to match.
Solutions:
#1. Get a little bit more freaking creative with the clan weapon nerfs besides the blanket-most nerf of "pinpoint reduction." It works well for the lasers and the LRMs but that's it. Want to properly nerf a cAC or cSRM? Increase its reload time. Want to properly nerf a cUAC? Alter its mechanic so it can only "ultra mode" once before being subjected to a full reload time (ACs and SRMs are not poptart weapons--reload time matters a lot for them). Want to properly nerf CGauss? Decrease its velocity. What do you end up with in the end? A bunch of weapons that are not only properly balanced with IS counterparts, but also with each other.
#2. Increase pulse laser cooldown time so that its total recycle matches up with the beam lasers of its own caliber, not with the caliber below it. Higher damage and better pinpoint in exchange for lower range and higher weight is a good trade on its own. No need to throw higher rate of fire in as a bonus (keep that an AC-only trick). That will help to throw off the cERML+LPL combo-ers somewhat.
#3. Make "Long Range" more important by increasing the rate at which weapon damage trails off beyond it (maybe make max range 1.5x of long range, rather than 2x). There should be a range, short of something absolutely ridiculous, at which cERLL should be able to strike isERLL boats unopposed (at 1.5x, that range would begin at 1110m with max range module. Currently it's not until nearly 1500m and where except on Alpine do you get open shots on people at 1500m?).
#4. Finally, to help bring the SCrow and TWolf down to the level of their comrades, I would say that some of their torso omni parts should come with fixed weapons, just like some come with fixed jump jets and Endo/FF slots. That would help limit the available space and tonnage one could devote to boating weapons on those chassis, giving a leg up in that department to other, lesser used chassis like the Nova and Summoner.
Clan Inherent Advantages:
1. XL Engines without the ST vulnerability (diminished but not neutralized by the new speed hit)
2. Lighter, smaller, longer range weaponry
3. Smaller Endosteel and FF upgrades
4. Smaller Double Heatsinks
5. Free CASE
6. The existence of Targeting Computers
Clan Nerfs:
1. Less pinpoint ability for all weapons (mostly due to longer durations) besides ERPPC, CGauss, MGs, Flamers, SRMs, and LBX
2. Inability to carry heavy weapons with lower arm actuators
**I am not including, for better or for worse, anything having to do with mechbuilding. These are only the advantages and nerfs that affect actual combat.
That seems pretty darn fair on paper! So where did it go wrong? Why is PGI unable to properly balance the SCrow, TWolf, HBR, and DWolf with their IS competitors without putting the other clan mechs at a disadvantage?
#1. Omni capability. Thanks to PGI's insistence on basing clan mechs on their lore, the TWolf and SCrow are completely impossible to limit hardpoint-wise without violating some of their traditional configs. Others are more easily limited, but those are precisely the mechs that don't need it. TWolf in particular has access to numerous hardpoints of all three types on both the arms and torso as well as JJs, and also has no fixed equipment to limit its available weight. The fact that most clan mechs do not possess this flexibility means that TWolf is already superior to most of them.
#2. Weight. This doesn't come into play in CW, but in PUGs where tonnages are grouped by weight class, it certainly helps that the SCrow, TWolf, and DWolf are all at the top of their respective classes. The other clan mechs, without the ability to fine tune their engine sizes and weight upgrades, are automatically at a disadvantage because they can't use as much tonnage.
#3. It's no mistake that the best clan weapons in the game are the ones that PGI was unable to separate from their IS counterparts. The cERML+cLPL combo is pretty much a ghost heat-less version of a LL-boat. The cSRMs are smaller and lighter than their IS counterparts with no drawbacks. The CGauss is just patiently waiting for the right mech able to dual- or triple-mount it to become the most OP weapon on the field. The rest of the weapons are crap in comparison.
Put #1, #2, and #3 together and what do you get? A whole bunch of cERML+LPL+cSRM SCrows and TWolves running around wrecking everybody in seconds while every clan mech not blessed with the ability to cram a half-dozen of those weapons on it without penalty is feeling the full brunt of the clan nerfs meant for the SCrow and TWolf. It's like using a horse tranquilizer on a dog--it's simply too much. We need to either have all horses or all dogs and use a tranquilizer to match.
Solutions:
#1. Get a little bit more freaking creative with the clan weapon nerfs besides the blanket-most nerf of "pinpoint reduction." It works well for the lasers and the LRMs but that's it. Want to properly nerf a cAC or cSRM? Increase its reload time. Want to properly nerf a cUAC? Alter its mechanic so it can only "ultra mode" once before being subjected to a full reload time (ACs and SRMs are not poptart weapons--reload time matters a lot for them). Want to properly nerf CGauss? Decrease its velocity. What do you end up with in the end? A bunch of weapons that are not only properly balanced with IS counterparts, but also with each other.
#2. Increase pulse laser cooldown time so that its total recycle matches up with the beam lasers of its own caliber, not with the caliber below it. Higher damage and better pinpoint in exchange for lower range and higher weight is a good trade on its own. No need to throw higher rate of fire in as a bonus (keep that an AC-only trick). That will help to throw off the cERML+LPL combo-ers somewhat.
#3. Make "Long Range" more important by increasing the rate at which weapon damage trails off beyond it (maybe make max range 1.5x of long range, rather than 2x). There should be a range, short of something absolutely ridiculous, at which cERLL should be able to strike isERLL boats unopposed (at 1.5x, that range would begin at 1110m with max range module. Currently it's not until nearly 1500m and where except on Alpine do you get open shots on people at 1500m?).
#4. Finally, to help bring the SCrow and TWolf down to the level of their comrades, I would say that some of their torso omni parts should come with fixed weapons, just like some come with fixed jump jets and Endo/FF slots. That would help limit the available space and tonnage one could devote to boating weapons on those chassis, giving a leg up in that department to other, lesser used chassis like the Nova and Summoner.
#46
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:44 AM
I've said it a zillion times already...
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
#47
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- Fury
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:51 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:
I've said it a zillion times already...
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
I am the opposite. why? Clan weapon is already hot enough, 20% loss in heatsink from engine internal heat sinks = combat capability drops significantly
Edited by HellAvenger, 18 March 2015 - 09:54 AM.
#48
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:55 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:
I've said it a zillion times already...
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
I'd rather have the Clan XL penalty be 10% speed loss and 40-50% internal heatsink loss than the Russ idea of 20% speed loss and 20% internal heatsink loss.
*Shudder*....I don't want 4 SHS on a Mist Lynx.....don't do that....
#49
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- Little Helper
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:58 AM
Clans can brawl just fine. Their small pulse lasers and er small lasers are cool and deadly and have the range of IS brawling weapons. Their SRMs are half weight.
They *don't* because long-range laser vomit is more effective, because there is no map or mode where you can guarantee being able to get into brawling range safely. The game always ends up being decided by mid-range and long-range exchanges, with brawling just for cleanup or to take advantage of someone screwing up.
They *don't* because long-range laser vomit is more effective, because there is no map or mode where you can guarantee being able to get into brawling range safely. The game always ends up being decided by mid-range and long-range exchanges, with brawling just for cleanup or to take advantage of someone screwing up.
#50
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:59 AM
Mcgral18, on 18 March 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:
*Shudder*....I don't want 4 SHS on a Mist Lynx.....don't do that....
The idea is that you can at least somewhat build around the engine heatsink loss by making a cooler build and/or not using a "sword and board" type build. If your guns are somewhat split between both sides, the loss of some weapons can somewhat cancel out the heatsink loss...it mostly just hits sword and board asymmetrical builds as a result.
The lower speed loss is also a bit more generous for the sub-par models (the 20% speed loss that some people want would make an Adder run at 87 kph after Speed Tweak...).
Edited by FupDup, 18 March 2015 - 10:01 AM.
#51
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:02 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:
The idea is that you can at least somewhat build around the engine heatsink loss by making a cooler build and/or not using a "sword and board" type build. If your guns are somewhat split between both sides, the loss of some weapons can somewhat cancel out the heatsink loss...it mostly just hits sword and board asymmetrical builds as a result.
The lower speed loss is also a bit more generous for the sub-par models (the 20% speed loss that some people want would make an Adder run at 87 kph after Speed Tweak...).
The lower speed loss is also a bit more generous for the sub-par models (the 20% speed loss that some people want would make an Adder run at 87 kph after Speed Tweak...).
I have a crazy idea, how about some pub queue testing to see where the numbers are now...? Why not do that before we butcher crap even more without any idea what is really going on from any angle at all...
What if they truly need no blanket nerf...? Then what?
(not aimed at you with animosity Fup, just pointing out a view point no one has espoused yet).
Edited by Gyrok, 18 March 2015 - 10:03 AM.
#52
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:02 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:
The idea is that you can at least somewhat build around the engine heatsink loss by making a cooler build and/or not using a "sword and board" type build. If your guns are somewhat split between both sides, the loss of some weapons can somewhat cancel out the heatsink loss...it mostly just hits sword and board asymmetrical builds as a result.
The lower speed loss is also a bit more generous for the sub-par models (the 20% speed loss that some people want would make an Adder run at 87 kph after Speed Tweak...).
The lower speed loss is also a bit more generous for the sub-par models (the 20% speed loss that some people want would make an Adder run at 87 kph after Speed Tweak...).
I doubt this change would solve the "Look Ma, No Arms" treatment on the Mist Lynx.
Edit:
Still, I think the Clan XL was warranted ONLY after the bad Clan Mechs got actual buffs... not "placeholder buffs" that they actually got.
Edited by Deathlike, 18 March 2015 - 10:03 AM.
#53
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:05 AM
Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:
I doubt this change would solve the "Look Ma, No Arms" treatment on the Mist Lynx.
Edit:
Still, I think the Clan XL was warranted ONLY after the bad Clan Mechs got actual buffs... not "placeholder buffs" that they actually got.
So are you saying you like Russ' idea of 20% speed loss more than my idea? That's basically what this is about.
(Russ wants 20% speed loss and 20% heatsink loss).
#54
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:09 AM
All "IS is weaker than Clamz plz nerf nerf nerf!" is irrelevant. Is has quirks, thats it, balance has been achieved.
(well, technically Clans have quirks too but I just feel like I should slap myself if I acknowledge 1% shorter laser duration as quirk)
(well, technically Clans have quirks too but I just feel like I should slap myself if I acknowledge 1% shorter laser duration as quirk)
#55
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:09 AM
I like the idea of 20/20. Don't be afraid tho, their mechs will still be at least as fast as almost every std-equipped IS mech. 
Then we can maybe actually look if there is something that to be done with nova or summoner without breaking anything.
Strongest mechs of it's classes? Firestarter, Stromcrow, Madcat, Daishi. I wonder what the 3 latter mechs have in common...
Then we can maybe actually look if there is something that to be done with nova or summoner without breaking anything.
Mordin Ashe, on 18 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:
All "IS is weaker than Clamz plz nerf nerf nerf!" is irrelevant. Is has quirks, thats it, balance has been achieved.
Strongest mechs of it's classes? Firestarter, Stromcrow, Madcat, Daishi. I wonder what the 3 latter mechs have in common...
Edited by Averen, 18 March 2015 - 10:11 AM.
#56
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:20 AM
Averen, on 18 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:
I like the idea of 20/20. Don't be afraid tho, their mechs will still be at least as fast as almost every std-equipped IS mech.
Then we can maybe actually look if there is something that to be done with nova or summoner without breaking anything.
Strongest mechs of it's classes? Firestarter, Stromcrow, Madcat, Daishi. I wonder what the 3 latter mechs have in common...
Then we can maybe actually look if there is something that to be done with nova or summoner without breaking anything.
Strongest mechs of it's classes? Firestarter, Stromcrow, Madcat, Daishi. I wonder what the 3 latter mechs have in common...
The Nova and Summoner need help though. More so on the Nova than the Summoner. I'd wish they'd start lower on the engine penalties and then see what happens. But otherwise, I agree with Gyrok. We need a more recent test than the one where it was 64% wins in favor of the Clans.
As far as your list goes, I'd include the King Crab and Dire Wolf as equals. Aside from a couple of joke builds on either side, both compare quite well, though the King Crab is better for brawling due to better torso twist.
#57
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:21 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:
So are you saying you like Russ' idea of 20% speed loss more than my idea? That's basically what this is about.
(Russ wants 20% speed loss and 20% heatsink loss).
(Russ wants 20% speed loss and 20% heatsink loss).
Technically, yes. In fact, I think I advocated for that very number.
I don't like your idea because 50% heatsink loss is extraordinarily significant.
I would be more amenable @ 30% or 33% if you want 10% speed loss. 50% heat loss is like running SHS... and noone wants that. Remember the DHS falloff happens at 17-18 DHS where the extra 15% heat from Coolrun (double elited) stops making it "above truedub" levels.
The Mist Lynx is essentially going to double down on said suggestion, with a sub-250 engine.
Most hot builds already use 20+ DHS... including the infamous Timberwolf Laservomit.
Remember that in a side torso loss, that you'll generally lose DHS in the process anyways... like the Wubhawk.
I suggest you rethink that idea, because it's the Wubhawk would be the golden boy of that bad idea.
Edited by Deathlike, 18 March 2015 - 10:22 AM.
#58
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:25 AM
Deathlike, on 18 March 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:
Technically, yes. In fact, I think I advocated for that very number.
I don't like your idea because 50% heatsink loss is extraordinarily significant.
I would be more amenable @ 30% or 33% if you want 10% speed loss. 50% heat loss is like running SHS... and noone wants that. Remember the DHS falloff happens at 17-18 DHS where the extra 15% heat from Coolrun (double elited) stops making it "above truedub" levels.
The Mist Lynx is essentially going to double down on said suggestion, with a sub-250 engine.
Most hot builds already use 20+ DHS... including the infamous Timberwolf Laservomit.
Remember that in a side torso loss, that you'll generally lose DHS in the process anyways... like the Wubhawk.
I suggest you rethink that idea, because it's the Wubhawk would be the golden boy of that bad idea.
Keep in mind that 20% speed loss puts a speed tweaked Adder or Cute Fox at 87 kph. Just something to think about...
#59
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:27 AM
FupDup, on 18 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:
Keep in mind that 20% speed loss puts a speed tweaked Adder or Cute Fox at 87 kph. Just something to think about...
I don't care.
Those are "Light mechs in Medium bodies".
You still play them like mediums anyways. It's not that much different.
Edit:
If you wanted to "fix that", even copying the lame Summoner +5% Speed increase would help mitigate that effect... as having Clan Lights slower than the Doomcrow is a mocking reminder of their uselessness.
Edited by Deathlike, 18 March 2015 - 10:28 AM.
#60
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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:33 AM
Verkhne, on 18 March 2015 - 05:55 AM, said:
I wonder if PGI is purposely keeping most clan chassis bad. This will potentially have two benefits for them: 1) overplay of good chassis will allow their eventual nerf, 2) the current wave 3 may have boosted sales as they may be "salvation" mechs.
Wave 3 isn't boosting my wallet open. Given the whining and crying going on, and the continuing nerfs to clan tech-you'd have to be loopy to spring another $120 lol.
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