35 replies to this topic

[Kalimaster]

I would like to get other players opinions on this topic, including those of the Com Guard. Now please keep this thread civil---okay. Now the reason for this is because of an individual I reported for blasting my Mech. This team mate opened fire on my Mech because he wanted to give me something to shoot at when I was using LRM's in a match on Forest Colony.

My question, or should I say proposal would be to level a 10 million C-Bill fine to any non-accidental friendly Mech kill upon reporting and investigation. This would effect a players ability to use C-Bills, and continued killing of friendly Mechs would thus drain any C-Bill funds said player would have, including putting accounts into negative figures.

[Metus regem]

Kalimaster, on 18 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I would like to get other players opinions on this topic, including those of the Com Guard. Now please keep this thread civil---okay. Now the reason for this is because of an individual I reported for blasting my Mech. This team mate opened fire on my Mech because he wanted to give me something to shoot at when I was using LRM's in a match on Forest Colony.

My question, or should I say proposal would be to level a 10 million C-Bill fine to any non-accidental friendly Mech kill upon reporting and investigation. This would effect a players ability to use C-Bills, and continued killing of friendly Mechs would thus drain any C-Bill funds said player would have, including putting accounts into negative figures.

Died to a TK did ya?

But to look into this with some thought, how do you tell the difference between intentional and unintentional TK? I mean the only TK I have ever done, was a total accident, a Kit Fox moved into the fire lane I had created with a Dakka Wolf, and was dead before I knew what happened, he then proceeded to call me a TK'er for the rest of the match.

Now I know, you are going to say, have PGI look at the match in question, the thing is, it's hard to tell if it was intentional or not, on top of that, they are going to have your word vs. theirs.

Now we come to the fine you want, 10 million c-bills is a lot, to those with out a long history of killing mechs.... I usually float around 10m c-bills, in cash on hand, that fine would effectively kill the game for me.

[Corbenik]

I dont think I like it, because once in awhile when im in my Dakkawolf some idiot light jumps in front of me just as i had Pressed the trigger and all that Lbukkake20 hits him and he dies in one hit, I dont think i should be penalized for being deadly and some Hyena tries to eat some of my prey .

[D34DMetal]

It's a good idea, but the BIG problem with this proposal is how the game goes about distinguishing between accidental friendly fire, and unabashed team killing.

[KraftySOT]

There is one. Its 10k cbills.

I wish it was 50k, and theyd never ban you for non excessive TKing.

Id happily throw down cbills to be able to kill some of the knuckleheads ive been a team with.

Its like AWOXing, but much more fun.

[terrycloth]

Usually, the teamkilling trolls work like this:
They log in (usually in a dire wolf) and immediately kill someone.
Sometimes they kill a second person.
Then someone on the team kills them.

It's not hard to spot the troll, but all three are intentional TKs, and if you don't let people fire back at them without risking a 10 million cbill penalty, the match is completely ruined because people have no choice but to run around getting killed and not firing back, instead of just mostly ruined by having one team down 2-3 assaults.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Kalimaster, on 18 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I would like to get other players opinions on this topic, including those of the Com Guard. Now please keep this thread civil---okay. Now the reason for this is because of an individual I reported for blasting my Mech. This team mate opened fire on my Mech because he wanted to give me something to shoot at when I was using LRM's in a match on Forest Colony.

My question, or should I say proposal would be to level a 10 million C-Bill fine to any non-accidental friendly Mech kill upon reporting and investigation. This would effect a players ability to use C-Bills, and continued killing of friendly Mechs would thus drain any C-Bill funds said player would have, including putting accounts into negative figures.

And how do you propose that we differentiate between accidental and purposeful? It's a long list of if's, and's, and but's.
The most robust system would be to create a team damage buffer.
You go over a certain team damage range, and any kills thereafter are heavily penalized.
You kill a team mate while your under the buffer, and you are OK.

Is the simplest, easiest way. You can also penalize damage on an incremental per point of damage basis. Such as 1 point of team damage after the buffer will also yield 1 point of xp loss. (this is to initially show to all players (both old and new) that team damage is bad)

[RoboPatton]

IMO - instead of a "X penalty on investigation", that should just be a ban-- temporary or permanent.

Instead I would propose that every team DAMAGE had a financial penalty. Far more damage is dealt to my back via mindless friendlies than all of the purposeful tker's I have EVER encountered. Probably by a very large number.

I'd like to see each point of friendly damage = -1000 credits in addition to the big penalty for TK. Too much? Well stop alpha'ing my rear CT you SOB!

[RussianWolf]

serial TKers use trial mechs and are ready to start alt accounts as needed already.

So how would this make a difference?

[Accused]

It should be around 150,000 cbills, enough to wipe out any earnings from the match, difference made up out of pocket.

Accidents happen, but not too much okay.

[Burktross]

Accused, on 18 March 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

It should be around 150,000 cbills, enough to wipe out any earnings from the match, difference made up out of pocket.

Accidents happen, but not too much okay.

Yes, I don't want to lose literally all of my money because a locust wandered infront of my Cataphract's low hanging arms.

[Xetelian]

Accused, on 18 March 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

It should be around 150,000 cbills, enough to wipe out any earnings from the match, difference made up out of pocket.

Accidents happen, but not too much okay.

I shouldn't have to lose all rewards for a match because someone got careless or someone started TKing another or myself and I finish them off first.


TK comes in more than one flavor.
As an aggravating accident.
As a purposeful attack.
As the prevention of being TK'd.

I'm sure there are many more and raising the TK amounts wont stop serial TKers. TKers don't need Cbills, they aren't interested obviously in buying mechs.

Edited by Xetelian, 18 March 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Water Bear]

MoonUnitBeta, on 18 March 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

And how do you propose that we differentiate between accidental and purposeful? It's a long list of if's, and's, and but's.

You know...it would be an interesting exercise in machine learning to try to train a program to determine that function. You're basically saying that you think a decision tree is the way to go.

You'd be surprised how good some programs have become at much more complicated tasks than this.

Unfortunately the kind of data needed to really train such a program isn't available publicly. For instance, I would bet that you need the amount of damage done as a starter, as well as when it happened and how many players were alive, etc. A score screen just wouldn't have any truly useful information in it.

Dear PGI: I have a couple of hand written machine learning algorithms on my hard drive right now. Send your boy some data...

[Gruinhardt]

Kalimaster, on 18 March 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I would like to get other players opinions on this topic, including those of the Com Guard. Now please keep this thread civil---okay. Now the reason for this is because of an individual I reported for blasting my Mech. This team mate opened fire on my Mech because he wanted to give me something to shoot at when I was using LRM's in a match on Forest Colony.

My question, or should I say proposal would be to level a 10 million C-Bill fine to any non-accidental friendly Mech kill upon reporting and investigation. This would effect a players ability to use C-Bills, and continued killing of friendly Mechs would thus drain any C-Bill funds said player would have, including putting accounts into negative figures.

A 10 million C-Bill fine means nothing to a TK'er knowing they will be reported and banned. A 10 million fine would only create more problems. Players fearing a fine for defending themselves, TK'er goes on to kill.

[Aiden Skye]

How would you define non accidental?

- Do you know how many times I've shot my team because they decided it was a good idea to walk in-front of me while my weapons were already going?

- Do you know how many times i've been shot in the back by somebody testing their weapons? Should I just turn the other cheek?

- Do you know how many rogue TK'rs I've encountered that just decided it was a good idea to go on a blue rampage? should they not be stopped form destroying the whole team?

- What is to stop people from creating endless new accounts just to drop in trial mechs and TK?

- I've had plenty accidental TK's cuz someone decided to run into for the kill and face hug....when I'm in thermal it's hard to tell who's in the front and who's in the rear.

Your solution solves nothing. Too many variables. Besides, I think team-killers represent a very small sliver of the player base.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Water Bear, on 18 March 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

You know...it would be an interesting exercise in machine learning to try to train a program to determine that function. You're basically saying that you think a decision tree is the way to go.

You'd be surprised how good some programs have become at much more complicated tasks than this.

Unfortunately the kind of data needed to really train such a program isn't available publicly. For instance, I would bet that you need the amount of damage done as a starter, as well as when it happened and how many players were alive, etc. A score screen just wouldn't have any truly useful information in it.

Dear PGI: I have a couple of hand written machine learning algorithms on my hard drive right now. Send your boy some data...

I’m not challenging the plausibility of what can be done, it’s just that I don’t think we need to reinvent the wheel to give somebody a penalty that happens intentionally on a very seldom basis.

I wouldn’t mind some robustness, however.
Which is why I think once you exceed 30points of team damage (which I think is -very- reasonable, as some tournaments ago team damage was able to be calculated, and the average then never exceeded 10) then you open yourself up to on-going penalties with damage, and severe penalties for kills. 30 damage is good because most mech components take 30 damage before they’re destroyed.

What this does is encourage you to keep your damage below that buffer, and save the event for when there truly is a disastrous accident. If you scrape a friend and pop his cherry CT, you don’t have to worry if you’re in that buffer. If you’re outside of that buffer, you kill a friend by accident, then that is your own fault for not first controlling your bad FF behaviours.

I don’t think a fully automated system needs to be set in place (if that’s what your suggesting) where it compares a list of factors like in-combat status, who was moving, which direction they moved, who was zoomed in, who fired, when they fire, what they saw when they fired, if they had a target insight when they fired, an arbitrary reaction delay of 0.194 seconds, and then have it calculate the entire event and then spit out a decision about whether or not it thinks it was an accident or intentional. Lol that’s a little over kill, and not necessary.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 18 March 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Teamkills are usually accidents and if they aren't you should be reporting the guy anyway. I don't see the issue here.

[Trashhead]

I just leave this here:
https://eu.wargaming...am-killing-work
(This is how "World of Tanks" deal with team killers.)

[Macksheen]

The people who do it intentionally are usually just hopping to alt accounts and using trial mechs, so a monetary penalty won't affect them in the least.

[Strykewolf]

Had one engage a friendly Catapult. CW/Sulfurous, defending a kurita world. Stepped into the LOS and he engaged me. So I returned the favor. He ceased for a bit. Then began engaging team mates, from behind while we were defending the gate that was the attack route for the other team.

Other team mates took care of it. By then, we were thoroughly disrupted and unable to hold the line; allowing the enemy team to reach the dropzone. Then he began spawn camping us as we came back into the match. At times, driving the friendly from cover into the enemy fire. Again, mostly attacking from the rear.

He caused a lot of damage and, killed a few friendlies before we got fed up, and ignored the enemy to finish him off.

Hard enough in a pug vs an organized team without some ******** on our team pulling that kind of crap.

And yeah, support should be hearing from a few folks about that match.