60 replies to this topic

[0bsidion]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Ok, so I see the Shadowcat, and I had to clean myself up. Several times.


Only one concern though. Dem Hardpoints. I figure since you are probably still working on those mechs, there might be time to make a crucial adjustment.

The shadowcat A has 3 hardpoints total...2 energy, one missile.

Perhaps we could bump those single Energy arm hardpoints into 2x Energy hardpoints. (It is not as though this is without precedent.. the SCR-Prime has 1 energy weapon in each arm in TT, and 2 E-HP in each arm here...)

What do ya say?

(As of right now, it's going to be a tough mech to use...ECM, JJs, and MASC are all nice things.. but when you have Ice Ferret weapons, it does not mean much.)

For some reason it didn't register until now that it's got those bloody 6 locked JJs, but it's still in a better position than the Nova from a pod space standpoint. I know they locked the JJs to address the Timberwolf S, but yet again PGI's sweeping nerfs hurt the other mechs far more than the TW. They really should have just done it to the TW S pods, but anyway, I digress.

All that aside, you're right, this mech probably won't be the best choice if you want to boat energy. The only thing it's really going to be able to boat will be MGs, and while a 7 MG SC might be one of those funny troll builds you pull out for a laugh, its probably going to wear thin pretty soon.

It isn't designed to be an endurance fighter. The profile, the hard point locations, and the fact it is only 45 tons, all say to me long ranged skirmisher, or perhaps a hit & run skirmisher. For hit and run, you can pack 2 MPLs and 3 SRM 6s with plenty of ammo, and unload close to a 52 damage alpha into an unsuspecting mech's flank and dart away to cool down. That's nothing to sneeze at. But if you need endurance, you'll have to chain fire those 6s. The hit and run ability is really going to hinge on if/how MASC gets implemented though.

[Widowmaker1981]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Considering that community warfare is the end-game content, it should be the concern of PGI.

If you are having trouble imagining it, grab an Adder (it has about 16 tons of Podspace when near full armor.)
Now put a TC 1 in to bring the "Shadowcat" down to the 15 tons it going to have when you put the armor near max. (306 or so for the Ice ferret, and since they have the same armor profile, I imagine that is what the SCat will have)

So you have 15 tons free with your 10 basic heatsinks.
Now switch the Torsos to A variant (if they are not already) and make one arm a prime arm.

15 tons (one being taken by a TC1 for fill-in), 10 basic heatsinks, 3 Energy hardpoints.
Add a CAP to symbolize your SCat's ECM,

Then fill the remaining 3 energy hardpoints and 14 tons with 2 LPLs and a ERML, or DHS.. take it into Training Grounds, and pretend you are in a Shadow cat.

This is a stupid way of testing it, since the adder doesnt have 10 truedubs.

The SCat will have 16 tons at full armour, can just about make 17 if you strip the left arm plus a little more. So you can either do LPL in each arm + ECM + 3DHS (advantage of fully actuated LPLs)
or
LPL in RA and RT + ECM + 4DHS (shield side, better convergence/corner peeking, touch cooler)

You can test how hot either build will be fairly accurately (apart from not knowing what (if any) heat reduction quirks it might get) by taking a SCR, adding 3 or 4 heatsinks and 2 LPLs and going into testing grounds. You can test it with a hellbringer too, or a Nova, or a Maddog, even an Ice Fridge if you strip most of the armour... just not an Adder or Kitfox.

And no, it shouldnt have been given 2E arms, probably. Id love it if it had, but 5xERML+20DHS+ECM+JJ+107kph would have been a little too brutal i think.

[DasaDevil]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Yeah, the 3 ERLL is one of the ones I'm planning on using as of now... but that's really about it. (And even then, that isn't going to handle heat very well.. or light mechs.)

Heat is a negligible issue with long range mechs. As far as light mechs go, we shouldn't really be singled out either way xD always have a wingman with ya, if only to have the ability to remove the enemy mech quickly, even if it isn't doing damage.

[Livewyr]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

This is a stupid way of testing it, since the adder doesnt have 10 truedubs.

The SCat will have 16 tons at full armour, can just about make 17 if you strip the left arm plus a little more. So you can either do LPL in each arm + ECM + 3DHS (advantage of fully actuated LPLs)
or
LPL in RA and RT + ECM + 4DHS (shield side, better convergence/corner peeking, touch cooler)

You can test how hot either build will be fairly accurately (apart from not knowing what (if any) heat reduction quirks it might get) by taking a SCR, adding 3 or 4 heatsinks and 2 LPLs and going into testing grounds. You can test it with a hellbringer too, or a Nova, or a Maddog, even an Ice Fridge if you strip most of the armour... just not an Adder or Kitfox.

And no, it shouldnt have been given 2E arms, probably. Id love it if it had, but 5xERML+20DHS+ECM+JJ+107kph would have been a little too brutal i think.

You raise a valid point with the Trudubs (I'm a little surprised PGI hasn't fixed that yet)

I'm feeling a bit better about the SHC, but I'm still hesitant regarding it being an alternative to the SCR in CW.

(Granted: I'm bringing 4xSHC to CWars regardless... because I drove a SHC throughout MW4, and will drive it throughout MWO.. I'd just like it to arrive in better shape than the Ice Ferret.)

[Widowmaker1981]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

You raise a valid point with the Trudubs (I'm a little surprised PGI hasn't fixed that yet)

I'm feeling a bit better about the SHC, but I'm still hesitant regarding it being an alternative to the SCR in CW.

(Granted: I'm bringing 4xSHC to CWars regardless... because I drove a SHC throughout MW4, and will drive it throughout MWO.. I'd just like it to arrive in better shape than the Ice Ferret.)

I just tested it, and the heat is very reasonable..
2xLPL + 3DHS alphas 6 times (just)
2xLPL + 4DHS alphas 7 times with a 1/2 second pause before the 7th
2xLPL+1xERML + 2xDHS is a bit toasty, but manageable, can get 4 alphas out.
Tested on forest colony

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, as a fast ECM platform, I'd take a 2xLPL over a 2xLPL kitfox any day. Hardpoint locations first and foremost, (slightly) more armor, very likely (given physical form in artwork) better hitboxes - particularly legs. Given you can run ~44% Smurfy cooling rating, that's cooler than almost all the builds I run normally anyways... and that's using an Adder, which is losing out on 1.2SHS effectiveness because of the lack of 2 TruDubs.

Ultimately, the 45t range is effectively just a big light - much like Cicadas. In this case, you're moving as fast, carrying comparable armament, but with more armor.


I'd also consider a 2LL/6MG build (though it'd lose ECM) - 2LL sniping + 6MG for late match carving and as a light deterrent. While MG's are somewhat lol-worthy, packing 6 of them onto a 45t 107kph jump capable platform can do some serious damage, particularly late in the match.

[Greenjulius]

One of my first builds will be 3xMPL, 2xSRM4/6. That's solid mid-range firepower (24 damage per shot with 3xMPL) covered by ECM. Up close, the combo of SRMs and MPL should be deadly. You could also go with 3xSRM4/6 for more close range punch at the expense of an energy hardpoint. In that case, you could drop down to 2xERML for extra tonnage. That's a 50 point alpha... (3xSRM6+A, 2xML) not bad.

Also keep in mind that this is a 45 tonner, and isn't made to go toe to toe with a Stormcrow or Timberwolf. It's somewhere between a Raven and a Blackjack, with almost all the good qualities of both. Also, don't forget that it will likely be a good tick smaller than the stormcrow, and even (hopefully) the Nova. Its arms are high mounted, its body squat; perfect for hill humping.

And yes, I've preordered the pack.

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yeah, as a fast ECM platform, I'd take a 2xLPL over a 2xLPL kitfox any day.

^This.

It will function much like a Super Raven in that capacity, if you do 2xLPL, ECM, 3DHS. Plus, it can jump very well with the 6xJJ, and has full 2.0 truedubs in that XL270 engine.

Edited by Greenjulius, 20 March 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[WarHippy]

Obviously the only choice is ECM, 3x ERMed, some extra heatsinks, and a MkVII targeting computer. Throw in range and cool down mods and you are good to go.

[LordMelvin]

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yeah, as a fast ECM platform, I'd take a 2xLPL over a 2xLPL kitfox any day. Hardpoint locations first and foremost, (slightly) more armor, very likely (given physical form in artwork) better hitboxes - particularly legs. Given you can run ~44% Smurfy cooling rating, that's cooler than almost all the builds I run normally anyways... and that's using an Adder, which is losing out on 1.2SHS effectiveness because of the lack of 2 TruDubs.

Ultimately, the 45t range is effectively just a big light - much like Cicadas. In this case, you're moving as fast, carrying comparable armament, but with more armor.


I'd also consider a 2LL/6MG build (though it'd lose ECM) - 2LL sniping + 6MG for late match carving and as a light deterrent. While MG's are somewhat lol-worthy, packing 6 of them onto a 45t 107kph jump capable platform can do some serious damage, particularly late in the match.

That's not a bad build. I might drop two mgs to keep the ECM for super sneaky sniping and protecting assaults from lrms.

[Wintersdark]

Greenjulius, on 20 March 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

One of my first builds will be 3xMPL, 2xSRM4/6. That's solid mid-range firepower (24 damage per shot with 3xMPL) covered by ECM. Up close, the combo of SRMs and MPL should be deadly. You could also go with 3xSRM4/6 for more close range punch at the expense of an energy hardpoint. In that case, you could drop down to 2xERML for extra tonnage. That's a 50 point alpha... (3xSRM6+A, 2xML) not bad.

Yup. 3E 3M ECM is a great set of hardpoints for a tiny striker, or light hunter.

Quote

Also keep in mind that this is a 45 tonner, and isn't made to go toe to toe with a Stormcrow or Timberwolf. It's somewhere between a Raven and a Blackjack, with almost all the good qualities of both. Also, don't forget that it will likely be a good tick smaller than the stormcrow, and even (hopefully) the Nova. Its arms are high mounted, its body squat; perfect for hill humping.

Exactly. It's a Blackjack with ECM options, basically. And lighter+smaller Clan weapons, allowing it to make use of the ES/FF combination even better. Really awesome hardpoints, low tonnage, speed and maneuverability. Hill humping, poptarting too. I'm really, really looking forward to it.

The key is to understand what it is, and what it isn't.

LordMelvin, on 20 March 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

That's not a bad build. I might drop two mgs to keep the ECM for super sneaky sniping and protecting assaults from lrms.

Not an option, it's about hardpoints/omnipods more than tonnage. You'd have to drop 3 MG's to keep ECM (you'd need the ECM side torso instead of the 3B side torso). If you're only packing 3, you'd be better swapping the other 3 MG's on the arm for an E arm. There's a really big difference between 3MG and 6MG.

[Nightshade24]

I think the Shadowcat is already very good from the stats...

I can't wait to use it!... but the only problem is all this talks of clan nerf and blanket nerfs makes me feel like it's not going to happen....

[Greenjulius]

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Not an option, it's about hardpoints/omnipods more than tonnage. You'd have to drop 3 MG's to keep ECM (you'd need the ECM side torso instead of the 3B side torso). If you're only packing 3, you'd be better swapping the other 3 MG's on the arm for an E arm. There's a really big difference between 3MG and 6MG.

Exactly. The only choices we've got for the Left Torso are:

1.) 1xAMS
2.) Nothing
3.) ECM
4.) 3xMG

1xAMS compared to ECM is useless. The next option is nothing... the only reason to take this omnipod would be if it was massively quirked, which I doubt is going to happen.

That leaves ECM vs 3xMG. The only great reason to run the 3xMG omnipod is if you're going full 6xMG so you can run it with 2xLPLs, sort of like a clan version of the Arrow. I will probably take it out at least once, as I love the Arrow.

That leaves the ECM omnipod as they only logical choice for 98% of builds. If you have access to ECM without it severely cutting down on your firepower (Mist Lynx crappy ECM arm) then you should probably run it.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Let it laser vomit CERML like every other mech, cuz why not, its the meta.

[Wintersdark]

LordKnightFandragon, on 20 March 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Let it laser vomit CERML like every other mech, cuz why not, its the meta.

And that's one of the reasons I'm glad for very limited energy hardpoints, to be honest.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

It can fit those large weapons 2LPL/3ERLL.. but with a total of 10-13 DHS, that will not be enough to keep it cool enough to effectively run those larger heat weapons. What we appear to have coming in is a Kitfox with masc and a bit more armor. (And a dreamy look)



3 energy, 3 missile, and 3 Ballistics, gives you... 1-2 options for loadout with 16 tons of podspace.. (and it isn't exactly ranged.)

I'd love to be wrong, but with 3 Energy hardpoints total, I don't see this mech coming to Community Warfare. (ECM and MASC wouldn't be a draw when you can just bring the Arctic Cheetah.)

The SCat, as it is now, will not have the ranged firepower needed for Community Warfare.

2x CLPLs is 20 heat, 26 damage


3x LLAS is 21 heat, 27 damage


Enjoy the 3 tons saved and extra +150m base range.


Really, what is it you expect from a 45 ton mech?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 March 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 20 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Yup. 3E 3M ECM is a great set of hardpoints for a tiny striker, or light hunter.

Shame it doesn't have those, though.

3E2M OR 2E3M

RT has either.

LordKnightFandragon, on 20 March 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Let it laser vomit CERML like every other mech, cuz why not, its the meta.

Can't really laservomit. Three is a meagre loadout for lasers. It will either need big lazors, or SRMs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Shame it doesn't have those, though.

3E2M OR 2E3M

RT has either.



Can't really laservomit. Three is a meagre loadout for lasers. It will either need big lazors, or SRMs.

I know lol, im being mostly sarcastic, cuz yeah, id love to see this game's loadouts diversify a little. Its kinda why, despite it being bad, I run the x4 CERPPC WHK-P. I know it sucks, but I hope that it will one day be good. And its not laser vomit, sinceI can only fire 1 at a time....

[CyclonerM]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

The SCat, as it is now, will not have the ranged firepower needed for Community Warfare.

2 erll / 1 gauss / 2 lpl

Even 1 ERPPC plus something else

I see plenty of decent options there. I will definitely bring mine in CW.

Besides, i will have it mastered while my Stormcrow will not, one more reason to bring it

Edited by CyclonerM, 20 March 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Ultimax]

WarHippy, on 20 March 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Obviously the only choice is ECM,

Greenjulius, on 20 March 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Exactly. The only choices we've got for the Left Torso are:

1.) 1xAMS
2.) Nothing
3.) ECM
4.) 3xMG

You boring farts can run ECM all day, but me - I'm going to have at least one build with 6 (maybe 7) Machine Guns!

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ultimatum X, on 20 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

You boring farts can run ECM all day, but me - I'm going to have at least one build with 6 (maybe 7) Machine Guns!

I get a very strong urge to punch the player through the screen who mounts MGs on their mech at all...they really are absolutely useless and just totally gimps the mech...only thing stopping me from doing it is the fact I cant.,..

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 20 March 2015 - 01:34 PM.