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Impressions Of The Zeus As I Grind It. Conclusion: Fitting Iteration Of The Pride Of The Lyran Commonwealth.


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#201 Roadkill

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 01:49 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Well, technically, that would mean ANY IS mech with an XL is not XL Friendly, as it always adds risk. For me, XL friendly is any mech that the risk is massively outweighed by the reward, the majority of the time, and can spread damage and protect the STs pretty effectively.

I see what you're saying, but to me "XL friendly" has to mean that you don't die more quickly because of the XL. Catapults are an extreme example - they almost never die to side torso destruction, so they are very XL friendly. Just about any Light is XL friendly because by the time you lose a side torso in a Light, you're likely dead regardless.

Centurions are at the other extreme, at least for me. I almost always (I'd guess 90%+) lose at least one side torso before I'm destroyed in my Centurions, so it would be silly to run an XL. Zombie mode in a Centurion can last for minutes, and that's lost if you die by having your XL destroyed.

I still feel like I'm dying 67%-75% of the time to side torso destruction. That doesn't feel like the reward massively outweighs the risk to me, but it's close enough that I'm still using XLs in the Mechs. I just have to play them differently than I might if I were using a standard engine.

And as I've said before, in the Zeus it almost doesn't matter since so much of the weaponry is left-torso dependent. I don't even bother trying to core an enemy Zeus 6S or 9S because the left torso dies faster and with it goes 75%-100% of the loadout.

So maybe the 6S and 9S are technically XL friendly because you might as well run one, but the 6T isn't due to its much more significant missile arm?

#202 LordBraxton

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 01:56 PM

It's circular reasoning with no end

Dragons are XL friendly, I know this as a veteran pilot, so I pick a side torso and end them in 2 shots. Same with catapults, just aim under the ears and rip a side torso out.

I run XLs in my battlemaster, and die more often to CT loss because most people target my CT, as the battlemaster is a std engine mech with somewhat symmetrical hardpoints.

Of course the end all rule is, use positioning and you'll be able to avoid most fire and distribute the inevitable damage more easily.

A 85kph mech stays in position much more easily than a 70kph mech.

My rule of thumb is XLs are for SPEED rather than extra weapons.

All my Zeus run XLs. XL380s.

Edited by LordBraxton, 26 March 2015 - 01:59 PM.


#203 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 01:59 PM

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

I see what you're saying, but to me "XL friendly" has to mean that you don't die more quickly because of the XL. Catapults are an extreme example - they almost never die to side torso destruction, so they are very XL friendly. Just about any Light is XL friendly because by the time you lose a side torso in a Light, you're likely dead regardless.

Centurions are at the other extreme, at least for me. I almost always (I'd guess 90%+) lose at least one side torso before I'm destroyed in my Centurions, so it would be silly to run an XL. Zombie mode in a Centurion can last for minutes, and that's lost if you die by having your XL destroyed.

I still feel like I'm dying 67%-75% of the time to side torso destruction. That doesn't feel like the reward massively outweighs the risk to me, but it's close enough that I'm still using XLs in the Mechs. I just have to play them differently than I might if I were using a standard engine.

And as I've said before, in the Zeus it almost doesn't matter since so much of the weaponry is left-torso dependent. I don't even bother trying to core an enemy Zeus 6S or 9S because the left torso dies faster and with it goes 75%-100% of the loadout.

So maybe the 6S and 9S are technically XL friendly because you might as well run one, but the 6T isn't due to its much more significant missile arm?

Well, that depends how you define "die more quickly". I find by going slower, and packing less firepower, I either die more quickly, or make less actual contribution to the match, on many mechs, than I would with an STD. I can run around pewpewing thru the match in a Zombie Cent....but chances are I have made substantially less contribution to actually winning the match then if I had run an XL, front load my damage contribution, even if I end up dead.

About the only mechs I don't lose an ST first on would be mechs with egregiously bad CT like the Catapult, and I don't feel they are so much XL friendly as just so CT unfriendly you got nothing to lose, lol.

By your standard there is what..2-3 XL friendly IS mechs, then?

#204 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:02 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 26 March 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

It's circular reasoning with no end

Dragons are XL friendly, I know this as a veteran pilot, so I pick a side torso and end them in 2 shots. Same with catapults, just aim under the ears and rip a side torso out.

I run XLs in my battlemaster, and die more often to CT loss because most people target my CT, as the battlemaster is a std engine mech with somewhat symmetrical hardpoints.

Of course the end all rule is, use positioning and you'll be able to avoid most fire and distribute the inevitable damage more easily.

A 85kph mech stays in position much more easily than a 70kph mech.

My rule of thumb is XLs are for SPEED rather than extra weapons.

All my Zeus run XLs. XL380s.

basically, this. There are a few mechs that are CT or ST unfriendly, period. HBKs and ATlas and Stalker? NEVER run XLs. (well, ok, almost never). But then some mechs like the Catapult have such bad CTs you got nothing to lose so maximize the pain you can inflict for your short time on gods green earth, lol!

#205 Deathlike

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:13 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 26 March 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

It's circular reasoning with no end

Dragons are XL friendly, I know this as a veteran pilot, so I pick a side torso and end them in 2 shots. Same with catapults, just aim under the ears and rip a side torso out.

I run XLs in my battlemaster, and die more often to CT loss because most people target my CT, as the battlemaster is a std engine mech with somewhat symmetrical hardpoints.

Of course the end all rule is, use positioning and you'll be able to avoid most fire and distribute the inevitable damage more easily.

A 85kph mech stays in position much more easily than a 70kph mech.

My rule of thumb is XLs are for SPEED rather than extra weapons.

All my Zeus run XLs. XL380s.


I think we kinda need to redefine "XL friendly".

For a mech like a Victor, it is "XL friendly" in that you can use your arms to shield your side torsos from direct damage. In the case of the Dragon Slayer, most builds tend to use the energy arm as a shield.

The mech would be fine with a Standard engine just as well...


For a Dragon though, I wouldn't call that exactly "XL friendly", but more like "XL preferred" or "XL effective" or something like that.

Dragons are fragile IMO... whether it is CT or side torso. The thing is that in order to make the mech reasonably usable... whether it is contributed by speed and/or firepower to be effective... you will need an XL engine for the mech.

It's the kind of classification that would be applied to Light mechs in general where not going XL is generally to your own detriment. Some mechs would need it more than others depending on the situation.

Whatever I guess...

#206 Roadkill

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:17 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

By your standard there is what..2-3 XL friendly IS mechs, then?

Seems like it's higher than that. I own just over 100 Mechs but 39 of those are Clan, so 60-65 IS variants. Just based on what I own:

All lights
Enforcer (?)
Shadowhawk (?)
Catapult
Jagermech
Thunderbolt
Victor (?)
Battlemaster (?)
Highlander
Banshee (?)

I own Grasshoppers but haven't leveled them up yet. I assume the Awesome is XL friendly because, well, barn door. I think the (?) Mechs are borderline... I use XLs in them unless I'm going for a more brawly type of build. My style is more support or sometimes brawling, so I'm generally not in the middle of the fight but I'm also not 700 meters away sniping.


#207 Apnu

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:18 PM

@OP. I feel the same way but for the Enforcer. It does Davion proud.

Having said that, in this era I consider myself FedCom so I'm liking the Zeus, even though I'm still fumbling around for a build that works for me.

80 tons is tricky, it can take some abuse but not much. Only slightly more than an Orion. I have to keep reminding myself of that point.

#208 Apnu

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:23 PM

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Seems like it's higher than that. I own just over 100 Mechs but 39 of those are Clan, so 60-65 IS variants. Just based on what I own:

All lights
Enforcer (?)
Shadowhawk (?)
Catapult
Jagermech
Thunderbolt
Victor (?)
Battlemaster (?)
Highlander
Banshee (?)

I own Grasshoppers but haven't leveled them up yet. I assume the Awesome is XL friendly because, well, barn door. I think the (?) Mechs are borderline... I use XLs in them unless I'm going for a more brawly type of build. My style is more support or sometimes brawling, so I'm generally not in the middle of the fight but I'm also not 700 meters away sniping.


I've run the enforcers with and without XLs they're very durable and XL is ok. Especially if you want speed, and in a medium speed is almost as important as it is for a light.

Hoppers are XL friendly. I tend to die in them via CT blowouts of some kind. However they're also armored enough where speed isn't a big deal and being energy dependent, STD engines work on them, but if you can manage the speed and protect the toros, the XL really makes them shine. Especially the 5N. Try it with 8xMPL and XL325 (with JJs) or XL340 (with out JJ). Its a beast.

For 65 ton mechs to bring a lot of hurt, they need the XL to free up tonnage for heavy missiles or auto cannons. They can do STD engines but are painfully slow and all are pretty bulky and easy to hit. Those are the few mechs where I'd take the XL for weight savings over speed increases.

#209 Roadkill

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:29 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

I think we kinda need to redefine "XL friendly".

For a mech like a Victor, it is "XL friendly" in that you can use your arms to shield your side torsos from direct damage. In the case of the Dragon Slayer, most builds tend to use the energy arm as a shield.

The mech would be fine with a Standard engine just as well...


For a Dragon though, I wouldn't call that exactly "XL friendly", but more like "XL preferred" or "XL effective" or something like that.

Good point.

"XL friendly" to me means that reward > risk for running an XL. You're better off running an XL so you should do it. Period.

"XL acceptable" is where I'd put the Zeus... you're okay running one, but watch your side torsos because you're going to lose them more often than not. Basically, reward == risk. There are builds for the Mech that don't use XLs that are comparably effective to builds that do use an XL.

"might as well XL" because the Mech is trash without one, despite the fact that the XL's going to get you killed more often than not. You could argue that that means reward > risk, but in the case that the Mech's pretty useless without an XL I'd argue that's not really a reward. It's making the Mech viable.

"XL banned" don't ever use an XL in these Mechs. Like Bishop said... Atlas, Stalker, Hunchback... I'd argue Centurion, Cataphract as well.

It kind of sounds like Bishop just combines the first three all into one category, which is fine.

#210 Deathlike

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:35 PM

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

It kind of sounds like Bishop just combines the first three all into one category, which is fine.


Separation needs to be done though...

For instance, I'm actually running the Highlander-732 (that I rebought during a faction sale) with XL. It's still pretty damn nice in XL (and after the removal of the terrible torso twist nerfs, it's reasonably function when JJs are not involved). It was actually usable before the "scarlet quirks".

Anyways, the point is that the use of XL depends on the mech in question... and that's what really needs to be explained a little when people read a mech building guide of sorts. Otherwise it's not clear or obvious to others why people build the way they do.

For instance, I actually DO NOT believe in running XL on a Catapult. I've always found that smarter players expose that caveat so I tend to build with a standard engine... and that has honestly worked better for me. Still, some people know the risk (GaussCats being #1 on that list), so it is what it is.

I honestly do shoot the side torsos of the Catapults for that mere reason alone.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2015 - 02:36 PM.


#211 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 03:19 PM

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

Good point.

"XL friendly" to me means that reward > risk for running an XL. You're better off running an XL so you should do it. Period.

"XL acceptable" is where I'd put the Zeus... you're okay running one, but watch your side torsos because you're going to lose them more often than not. Basically, reward == risk. There are builds for the Mech that don't use XLs that are comparably effective to builds that do use an XL.

"might as well XL" because the Mech is trash without one, despite the fact that the XL's going to get you killed more often than not. You could argue that that means reward > risk, but in the case that the Mech's pretty useless without an XL I'd argue that's not really a reward. It's making the Mech viable.

"XL banned" don't ever use an XL in these Mechs. Like Bishop said... Atlas, Stalker, Hunchback... I'd argue Centurion, Cataphract as well.

It kind of sounds like Bishop just combines the first three all into one category, which is fine.

not entirely true.

I feel there are mechs:

1 )that you are an idiot not to XL (pre-nerf VTR (have not decided on the current version),SHD, GRF, WVR, etc)
2) mechs that can go either way, (Jagermech, Cataphract, Thunderbolt, Centurion)
3) and mechs that never get XL'd (at least for serious play) (Atlas, Stalker, Hunchback)

Yeah, you could nit pick tiers of XL worthiness into all the above, but I find at that point it starts getting too subjective, and oftentimes playstyle, weapon preference, Solo vs Team, CW vs Causal, all start to influence those shades of grey, and thus, it is hard to be fully objective, IMO.

For some people, the BJ is very XL friendly.... as long as they are peektarting....another might find it less forgiving because they are running the popular ac20/ 3Mlaser build....which to sue most effectively means exposing that ST more.

For me? I almost never die to ST death in a Centurion. And I do about 250 avg dmg more, with an XL one than a Zombie. Thus, while I list the chassis as "go either way" for me personally it's "only an idiot would use one without) because in my hands, and my playstyle, the CN9 is massively more effective, and yes, survivable than one without. Speed and firepower are as much a part of the Survivability formula as Durability, the exact proportions of the formula simply vary by chassis and playstyle.

I find the ZEUS, minus an XL? Too slow and undergunned, thus LESS survivable (even though if you were to park it side by side with an STD engine version and blaze away, the std is more durable). That and I find like the VTR, BNC, SHD, GRF, CN9 and WVR, it's stupid easy to soak damage on the arms before it gets to the STs, and easy to spread the damage even once the arm is gone. For me personally, that is another factor. Any mech that has ape arms and twists well, is going to be "XL friendly" in my book. Any mech that as you put it "can tank" even with an XL? Is XL friendly.

Doesn't matter if you die eventually to ST loss, the only way to guarantee that won't happen is to run STDs or pilot a mech like a CPLT that gets CT cored all the time. But if you can tank and spread damage, have to lose both arms and then still take a while to kill? I don't care if you finally die by ST loss (in fact in most XL Friendly mechs, you will, eventually), it's XL Friendly, IMO.

View PostDeathlike, on 26 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:


I think we kinda need to redefine "XL friendly".

For a mech like a Victor, it is "XL friendly" in that you can use your arms to shield your side torsos from direct damage. In the case of the Dragon Slayer, most builds tend to use the energy arm as a shield.

The mech would be fine with a Standard engine just as well...


For a Dragon though, I wouldn't call that exactly "XL friendly", but more like "XL preferred" or "XL effective" or something like that.

Dragons are fragile IMO... whether it is CT or side torso. The thing is that in order to make the mech reasonably usable... whether it is contributed by speed and/or firepower to be effective... you will need an XL engine for the mech.

It's the kind of classification that would be applied to Light mechs in general where not going XL is generally to your own detriment. Some mechs would need it more than others depending on the situation.

Whatever I guess...

Yeah, that works, too.

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Seems like it's higher than that. I own just over 100 Mechs but 39 of those are Clan, so 60-65 IS variants. Just based on what I own:

All lights
Enforcer (?)
Shadowhawk (?)
Catapult
Jagermech
Thunderbolt
Victor (?)
Battlemaster (?)
Highlander
Banshee (?)

I own Grasshoppers but haven't leveled them up yet. I assume the Awesome is XL friendly because, well, barn door. I think the (?) Mechs are borderline... I use XLs in them unless I'm going for a more brawly type of build. My style is more support or sometimes brawling, so I'm generally not in the middle of the fight but I'm also not 700 meters away sniping.

I'll be honest, aside from the Jenner, most Lights die to ST death (via legging). It's just it takes a long time to get there, without a lucky shot.

#212 Spr1ggan

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 03:48 PM

Okay so done the basics on all 3 now. I had a really rough time with the 6S and the missile one. The 9S though I've been doing alright in, using 3 large lasers and 3 medium pulses.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 26 March 2015 - 03:48 PM.


#213 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 03:54 PM

View PostSpr1ggan, on 26 March 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

Okay so done the basics on all 3 now. I had a really rough time with the 6S and the missile one. The 9S though I've been doing alright in, using 3 large lasers and 3 medium pulses.

Not Surprised. Sword and Board is what I expect higher tier players to run. And IMO, it's not a great sword and board mech. I still think at 80 tons the Dragonslayer is the best, most versatile for that, overall.

#214 Spr1ggan

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:04 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Not Surprised. Sword and Board is what I expect higher tier players to run. And IMO, it's not a great sword and board mech. I still think at 80 tons the Dragonslayer is the best, most versatile for that, overall.


There's probably builds I can do for the others to perform better with but I'm just really hesitant to XL this mech. Been running standards in them and always lose a side torso.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 26 March 2015 - 04:04 PM.


#215 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:07 PM

View PostSpr1ggan, on 26 March 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:


There's probably builds I can do for the others to perform better with but I'm just really hesitant to XL this mech. Been running standards in them and always lose a side torso.

I find it needs a 340 and up to have the happy twist rate. When I die, I do usually die to ST loss, but it's after losing both arms, and having all 3 torsos stripped of armor, so I figure, ya know, hard to complain, lol.

But against comp play, you will get that ST more successfully focused. So yeah, could see the hesitation. Unfortunately, for me the tradeoff is it becomes too slow, to undergunned (and well, frankly, kinda boring, lol) without an XL.

Plus it's against my DNA to run a Zeus without missiles. I would have to change my name to Davion or something.

#216 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:10 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Not Surprised. Sword and Board is what I expect higher tier players to run. And IMO, it's not a great sword and board mech. I still think at 80 tons the Dragonslayer is the best, most versatile for that, overall.



Sword and Board zeus? I think I have one...now I should totally move the ammo to the left side and it would have an entire empty RA/RT....if only I remember to twist to the left....

but overall, the Zeus seems pretty durable. Max armor+ Quirk armor...it takes a pretty good lickin...

#217 Wintersdark

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:22 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well, that depends how you define "die more quickly". I find by going slower, and packing less firepower, I either die more quickly, or make less actual contribution to the match, on many mechs, than I would with an STD. I can run around pewpewing thru the match in a Zombie Cent....but chances are I have made substantially less contribution to actually winning the match then if I had run an XL, front load my damage contribution, even if I end up dead.

About the only mechs I don't lose an ST first on would be mechs with egregiously bad CT like the Catapult, and I don't feel they are so much XL friendly as just so CT unfriendly you got nothing to lose, lol.

By your standard there is what..2-3 XL friendly IS mechs, then?

In all honesty, I run XL's in ALL my IS heavies, some mediums, and certain lighter assaults.

I do this for Mr. Steiner's reasoning above: I may not be able to tank as much damage, but I live linger with higher speed AND pack more firepower to kill opponents before they do more damage to me.

I nearly always die in matches, and I'm OK with that. I always take more of them with me, though, and that's a decent contribution.

Larger engine=faster twist speed=better damage spreading. Its worked well enough for me over the years.

#218 Roadkill

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:41 PM

View PostSpr1ggan, on 26 March 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

Okay so done the basics on all 3 now. I had a really rough time with the 6S and the missile one. The 9S though I've been doing alright in, using 3 large lasers and 3 medium pulses.

I've had great success with 4 x LPL (2 left arm, 2 left torso) and an XL 350 engine. Now that I have speed tweak, it really sings.

I just finished unlocking speed tweak on all three variants, and I might have to come over to Bishop's camp now. The difference between 70.9 kph and 78 kph was shocking to me. It is MUCH more maneuverable at 78 kph... so much so that I'd even call it XL friendly now. It was already very tanky, but that little bit of extra speed made it dramatically more so.

As Bishop said... at this point by the time I die I'm missing an arm, most of the armor (if not all) on all three torsos, and I'm pretty much spent. Doesn't matter if they take an XL or the CT at that point... I've given all I had to give.

#219 Deathlike

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:44 PM

View PostRoadkill, on 26 March 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

I've had great success with 4 x LPL (2 left arm, 2 left torso) and an XL 350 engine. Now that I have speed tweak, it really sings.

I just finished unlocking speed tweak on all three variants, and I might have to come over to Bishop's camp now. The difference between 70.9 kph and 78 kph was shocking to me. It is MUCH more maneuverable at 78 kph... so much so that I'd even call it XL friendly now. It was already very tanky, but that little bit of extra speed made it dramatically more so.

As Bishop said... at this point by the time I die I'm missing an arm, most of the armor (if not all) on all three torsos, and I'm pretty much spent. Doesn't matter if they take an XL or the CT at that point... I've given all I had to give.


You might have seen the difference between a Victor and a Gargoyle... now you know...

And Gargles are half the battle!

#220 Roadkill

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 04:49 PM

View PostSpr1ggan, on 26 March 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

I had a really rough time with the 6S and the missile one.

My Zeus 6S works very well for me. I use it as mid-range brawl support to help protect the XL, but the right arm makes a great shield even stripped down to 20 armor.

The 6T is tough. I run 3 x LRM-5 with Artemis and 3 Large Lasers. But it's still not as good as either of the other variants, at least in my opinion.





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