139 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Well, alot of the posts are right, this is getting ridiculous.

You guys do realize when you put in 50,000 words on a topic on either side, using completely asymmetrical examples, and both sides make fairly convincing if not convoluted points, it means the balance is pretty good right?

Asymmetrical balance is a thing as old as flight sims. One guy has a Spitfire Ia. which can turn and burn, its got great energy retention, a tight turn radius, and low stall speed. Its very stable, it can dive well when it rolls over (it has no fuel injection, negative Gs starve the engine of fuel and oil). The other guy has a 109E4. It has a higher speed, better guns, better climb, better immediate dive (fuel injection).

On paper these two aircraft couldnt be more different, however, as has been shown in 30 years of flight simulators, the actual historical documentation of the real airframes, and massive amount of computations to figure it out, the Spitfire Ia, and 109E4, is the closest match up in history.

Yet that has never stopped a literal cubic ass load of people over the years, saying one or the other is OP. Theyve gone to extreme places and even resorted to real life crime over the debate. Theyve said its because only speed and altitude matter (the 109 is OP!) theyve said its because turn and burn (chasing tails to shoot from dead 6 oclock) is so easy for noobs and the spit is so good at that (The Spitdweeb stick stirred me im an experten Luftwaffle, the Spitfire is OP!!!).

Regardless of the the fact that sims just simply make a flight model that attempts to perfectly simulate the aircraft, and all the flight tests and combat reports show that the two craft are a perfect asymmetrical match for each other, that spawned dozens of more versions of each airframe expanding on the strengths that each side has, each attempting to finally put the nail in the other sides coffin with some stat that outclassed the other, people still debate this TO THIS DAY.

At the end of the day, in 30 years, no one has ever proven one or the other is over powering of the other. Over powering in and of itself means something is so clearly powerful that no one could argue about it. The simple fact that there is a debate at all, is proof that its not over powering.


Now return to your regularly scheduled whine fest.

[MoonUnitBeta]

too long didn't read

[KraftySOT]

MoonUnitBeta, on 21 March 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

too long didn't read

You gotta come back to Liao man.

[Corbenik]

but...but...they are op! the lot of em!

[Adiuvo]

People continuously try to justify their side using garbage mechs as examples.

Ignore the garbage mechs, for once.

Take the top IS mechs, and the top clan mechs. You have a Stalker, Thunderbolt, Hunchback/Wolverine, and Firestarter, vs a Daishi, Hellbringer/Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Kit Fox. What wins?

Looking at the mechs that have a consistent large game impact in of themselves... for IS that's basically just a Stalker. For clans that's a Daishi or Timberwolf. Both of the latter are better than the Stalker.

This whole thing is pointless to frame as clan vs. IS anyways. It's a dumb distinction that shields the real concern - overall game balance. TTK has gone down massively since clans/quirks, alphas are higher, engagement ranges are higher, and it's really not doing the game any favors.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 March 2015 - 02:14 PM.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

People continuously try to justify their side using garbage mechs as examples.

Ignore the garbage mechs, for once.

My issue is when they use the garbage clan mechs to justify some of the clan weapons that are clearly superior to IS options.

[KraftySOT]

Eh to be fair, again comparing a Timberwolf and a Stalker is like comparing a 109 and a Spitfire.

One can do alot of DPS at medium range, has good speed and armor. The other has a ridiculous Alpha at extreme range, better armor, and is slower.

Theyre different. But id attest equal. Their weight is irrelevant, since a Stalker is infact better than a Dire, which is bigger. The point is, what is the best. What can the best do. What can the best of the other side do. Since its assymmetrical, its about reducing your opponents strengths.

Why was the Thunderbolt awesome with 4 ERPPCs? Because it could out damage the clans in their "goldilocks zone". How many did you see in the Pug queue? Not nearly as many because you dont know your opponents strengths so you cant minimize them.

This can go around in circles for ages.

Which means its balanced. Or close to it. Its not a siesmic shift in one direction or the other.

Theres so many factors, like skill, bad people in bad mechs make bad witness statements, that arent even accounted for.

If you see a Squadron of 109s from Abbeville, shoot down a bunch of noobs in Spitfires from Ramsgate on their first mission, it doesnt mean that the two airframes arent still perfectly balanced.

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

My issue is when they use the garbage clan mechs to justify some of the clan weapons that are clearly superior to IS options.

It works both ways. Thats how asymmetrical balance works.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

One can do alot of DPS at medium range, has good speed and armor. The other has a ridiculous Alpha at extreme range, better armor, and is slower.

This isn't really a true summary.

The Daishi beats the Stalker at everything besides hill peeking. It's like saying that a Daishi has 9 advantages, but the Stalker has 1, therefore it's balanced.

The Timberwolf alone is generally going to have more of a game impact than a Stalker.

Furthermore this isn't a grand strategy game. If we have a bunch of mechs in a class that are poor, then what's the point in driving that class? What is the point of driving anything but the strongest mechs? If someone doesn't care about how they perform in a match and just wanna have fun, that's fine, but that sort of person wouldn't really care about game balance to begin with.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 March 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Id say the clans have a tiny, tiny, tiny edge, when you put the best people, in the best mechs, with all the derp and modules, on a reasonably balanced map, but then again, I have no proof, and I dont ask ANYONE anywhere, to believe me. Its just my feeling.

That being said, that tiny edge, is completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. What people whine about, is because theyre bad, and came up against good, or are good, and simply got bested, and cant accept it.

When Clams were pay to play, before some nerfs, yes, there was an edge there that anyone, anywhere could see, and no one other than some crazy people who were laughed out of the forums said the IS was far superior. It was clear to anyone.

Now were back to the clan vs IS debate with CW coming out of its infancy with what people consider to be clear balance issues between the mechs, and people are slinging mud at each other like crazy over something thats so small, its irrelevant, compared to your actual skill, build, mech choice, distance down the grind, and knowledge of all the other good metas.

The reason you got stomped is because youre bad. If youre consistently barely being beaten when youre at the top of your game playing others at the top of theirs, there might be a balance issues, but its small, and takes a long time to manifest as a definable Thing™

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Theyre different. But id attest equal. Their weight is irrelevant, since a Stalker is infact better than a Dire, which is bigger.

This is why you think this is "asymmetrical" balance, basically because your judgement of the mechs and their performance is off.

The Stalker, even the 4N, is clearly not as good as either of those mechs.

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

It works both ways. Thats how asymmetrical balance works.

No, this is not asymmetrical balance.


One faction having all of the literally top tier mechs and the other having mechs just a rung below that at their best, is not asymmetrical balance.

There are more clan mechs coming that will also occupy top tier slots.




You have people on these forums who really think that even mechs like the Summoner and Gargoyle are outright T5 garbage bin mechs, and this simply isn't true.


We can't have a conversation on game & faction balance, unless we have really objective judgements on the mechs themselves.


Saying a Stalker-4N is as good as a Dire Wolf, tells me that you aren't quite seeing the whole picture. No offense.

[KraftySOT]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

This isn't really a true summary.

The Daishi beats the Stalker at everything besides hill peeking. It's like saying that a Daishi has 9 advantages, but the Stalker has 1, therefore it's balanced.

The Timberwolf alone is generally going to have more of a game impact than a Stalker.

Furthermore this isn't a grand strategy game. If we have a bunch of mechs in a class that are poor, then what's the point in driving that class? What is the point of driving anything but the strongest mechs? If someone doesn't care about how they perform in a match and just wanna have fun, that's fine, but that sort of person wouldn't really care about game balance to begin with.

I completely disagree. A Dire has a 30 PP alpha. I have a what...57? My duration is pretty short, ive got almost comparable armor, im at 65kph, I have a standard engine, a plethora of TruDubs. Its Dakka is bad, my damage projection is considerably better, just for a shorter amount of time, which is ok, because I can peek and he cant.

What do I hate in 4N?

Hellbringers with Gauss and ERLL. I cant put all 6 LL into the CT or head, because the Hellbringer isnt basically immobile.

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Saying a Stalker-4N is as good as a Dire Wolf, tells me that you aren't quite seeing the whole picture. No offense.

That you dont know that it is, worries me about your Meta list then. Which ive been pretty much using as gospel.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

I completely disagree. A Dire has a 30 PP alpha. I have a what...57? My duration is pretty short, ive got almost comparable armor, im at 65kph, I have a standard engine, a plethora of TruDubs. Its Dakka is bad, my damage projection is considerably better, just for a shorter amount of time, which is ok, because I can peek and he cant.

What do I hate in 4N?

Hellbringers with Gauss and ERLL. I cant put all 6 LL into the CT or head, because the Hellbringer isnt basically immobile.

If you're calling your alpha pinpoint then a conventional Daishi has a 91 pinpoint.

[Jman5]

Quote

You guys do realize when you put in 50,000 words on a topic on either side, using completely asymmetrical examples, and both sides make fairly convincing if not convoluted points, it means the balance is pretty good right?

Just because two sides can scream at each other with equal fervor does mean there is balance.

I would really like to see a weekend event featuring Clan vs IS in the solo queue.

[KraftySOT]

You also dont have the Banshee 3M in there properly either.

I dont disagree that the Clan mechs have a slight edge, thats my personal feeling, but I dont have any real hard evidence to back it up, because if im in the right mech for the situation, there is absolutely no mech anywhere, that is OP. If I have a StreakCrow and you have a Firestarter. I win. If I have a 4N and you have a Dire. I win. If you have a Timbervomit and I have a Wubshee, I lose.

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

If you're calling your alpha pinpoint then a conventional Daishi has a 91 pinpoint.

Of which a large majority will simply melt over the target and the bad environmental hit boxes, and leave you overheating.

The only thing that matters on a Dire is the dual gauss. Clam lasers are bad. Dakka is bad.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 March 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Of which a large majority will simply melt over the target and the bad environmental hit boxes, and leave you overheating.

The only thing that matters on a Dire is the dual gauss. Clam lasers are bad. Dakka is bad.

>Clam lasers are bad.

Please. Please stop.

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Id say the clans have a tiny, tiny, tiny edge, when you put the best people, in the best mechs, with all the derp and modules, on a reasonably balanced map, but then again, I have no proof, and I dont ask ANYONE anywhere, to believe me. Its just my feeling.

Here's what you do, if you really have the zeal for this.


Seek out and ask several top tier players from a variety of units like EmP, SJR, Lords, MS, 228th, etc.


Ask them all a very simple set of questions.


If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one choosing the best of the clans and one choosing the best of the IS, who would win?

If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one choosing the T2 clan mechs and the other choosing the T2 IS mechs, who would win?

If If two equally skilled teams in equally fair situations played, one allowed to choose have their team with T1 clan mechs & T2 clan mechs vs. the other team choosing half T1 IS mechs and half T2 IS mechs, who would win?



I have a feeling the first answer would be easy, and probably unanimous.

The second would likely take more thought and have some dissenting opinions, with a lot of qualifiers starting with "it depends".

The third would be the most interesting question, I'm not sure how it would go but I have a strong gut feeling.

[KraftySOT]

But look, were getting into the revolving door that im talking about.

You can do this for ages. Balance isnt perfect, it isnt bad either. Are there mechs that are good? Yes. Are there mechs that are bad? Yes. But can you beat, with the right set of circumstances that youre in control of, every other mech in the game? Of course.

Direwhales arent good. Thats why you dont see alot of them in CW. Thats why you dont see MS or CI or Lords dropping direwolf decks.

Yet 4Ns are staples now because of their quirks. Despite the tonnage. No one is taking a Dire in CW to counter a 4N.

Because a Dire doesnt counter a 4N a 4N counters a Dire.

We can do this all month.

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

>Clam lasers are bad.

Please. Please stop.

Theyre bad.

Thats why it takes 4-5 Timberwolves to kill the last Locust or Raven that drops in CW when theyre standing mere feet from it.

HSR, Burn time, IS lights. Your clam lasers are situationally very good. When people walk their Thunderbolts into door ways and get artyd to high heaven, yes, alot of laser vomit is good.

When youre trying to kill that Wubstarter with them thats circling you? Theyre very, very bad.

[meteorol]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

I completely disagree. A Dire has a 30 PP alpha. I have a what...57?

Would you mind explaining that? A typical direwolf has an alpha around 84 (2 gauss, 2 lpl, 4 erml, don't know the exact values tbh). 30 sounds like... 6uac 5? Thats a build not commonly used.

Edited by meteorol, 21 March 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Ultimax]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

The only thing that matters on a Dire is the dual gauss. Clam lasers are bad. Dakka is bad.

OK, I see why you think the things you do.


Clan lasers are outright superior to pretty much every option the IS has.

The IS has a few "competitive" quirked versions of lasers, but that is really few and far between.


Clan Dakka on DWFs is brutal, don't mistake what you see in solo PUG matches as it being used effectively.




I'm sure a lot of guys play it very well, but I'm not sure who plays it regularly - so if you want to see what a Gauss Vomit Dire Wolf is really capable of, you should watch some of TwinkyOverlord's streams (or if you are feeling really spunky, you could maybe challenge him and you play the 4N and he'll play the DWF)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 March 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Scout Derek]

@KraftySOT

I agree with your first post, won't change much or anything at all.