139 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

That was quite a while ago, the peak thing. And yeah, that happened in 228, MS, WoL, Goons, HHOG, and a few others that ive noticed. On NGNG I was still logged in and listening to the same problem with the Aces.

People are leaving units and making new units, some have gone to leagues, some are waiting on Homeless Bills thing, others have left entirely. Some are simply haunting Reddits.

The game does, from my perspective appear to be shrinking. When CW first hit, I saw maybe, 30-40 Gatekeepers around, now its a tad slimmer than that.

Server peak was about a month ago. WoL and goons are the same unit afaik. 228th isn't losing members, their comp team especially is hitting new strides. MS likewise. HHoD I have no idea about.

As for CW, yeah that probably has less people now than it did at peak. Not everyone is interested I suppose.

Edited by Adiuvo, 21 March 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think this statement is pretty illuminating. You're not judging mechs by game impact, but but 1v1 capability. You aren't even looking at that correctly since the only way for you to reach the above conclusion is by sticking the Daishi in the worst situation possible (which isn't fighting a light 1v1, it's the light being on its backside already which is literally the only way for it to win that matchup).

Game impact is what matters for game balance, not 1v1 potential.

Thats all the game is, is a series of 1v1 match ups. If your bad, its going to be 1v4+, but if youre not, its also 1v1, even when your deathball hits their deathball, everyone is shooting at one mech, and the enemy is all shooting at one mech. When that devolves into individual fights, seconds are all that matters, and aiming, and alpha is what matters (or speed).

Since TTK is SO UNBELIEVABLY low...all the mechs that can KO enemy mechs in less than 3 seconds, or can do it with the assistance of one other player, are all balanced with each other.

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Server peak was about a month ago. WoL and goons are the same unit afaik. 228th isn't losing members, their comp team especially is hitting new strides. MS likewise. HHoD I have no idea about.

As for CW, yeah that probably has less people now than it did at peak. Not everyone is interested I suppose.

WoL, and GOON, and LUFT, are all goons, but are their own separate things. One is simply Something Awful peeps, the other is any Goon, the other is specifically Goonwaffles from Eve.

And I have no idea what pugs are doing these days, so there might be a ridiculous number of solo drops. CW seems to be shrinking, and the top end seems to be having a higher rate of attrition than replacement (meaning more top people leave, than new people become top people)

[Adiuvo]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Thats all the game is, is a series of 1v1 match ups. If your bad, its going to be 1v4+, but if youre not, its also 1v1, even when your deathball hits their deathball, everyone is shooting at one mech, and the enemy is all shooting at one mech. When that devolves into individual fights, seconds are all that matters, and aiming, and alpha is what matters (or speed).

Since TTK is SO UNBELIEVABLY low...all the mechs that can KO enemy mechs in less than 3 seconds, or can do it with the assistance of one other player, are all balanced with each other.

No... no it really isn't. Even in pug queue it isn't. Since there's no way to heal and TTK isn't CoD levels, you cannot continuously 1v1 an enemy team by yourself. This is literally an axiom about the game. You will take chip damage. Your health will go down in every engagement.

[KraftySOT]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

No... no it really isn't. Even in pug queue it isn't. Since there's no way to heal and TTK isn't CoD levels, you cannot continuously 1v1 an enemy team by yourself. This is literally an axiom about the game. You will take chip damage. Your health will go down in every engagement.

Absolutely, so, if on my team of people, we are all maximizing who takes down who, since there are mechs that beat other mechs and all mechs have a counter mech, the series of 1v1 paint tradings being won heavily by one side, is what wins matches.

When it comes to giant deathball, it simply comes down to sustained dps, which can be easily articulated to be almost the exact same potential on both sides when both sides are maximizing.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 March 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[Corbenik]

The real thing that makes anything OP is Teamwork and Piloting, so we need to nerf Teams and Pilots

[KraftySOT]

But all good players are looking for firing lanes that minimize their exposure and minimize the number of mechs that can fire on you while maximizing their own strengths.

Take Sulphorous for example. Moving into the middle gate, and taking the D4 and E4 firing lanes. Its a series of 1 on 1 fights. If those fights are all Wubshees vs Direwhales, the Direwhales always lose, because the damage projection from a Wubshee is higher at that close range, and the Whale simply cant out DPS you or out twist you and doesnt have awesome huge shield arms. The Banshees win.

Do that with Wubshees vs Timberwolves and the team loses. No amount of flanking or leadership really comes into play, its simply a matter of alpha potential and damage projection down thin firing lanes. If youre winning all of those, you win. If you lose, you lose.

Since there are mechs on both sides who can win that series against the other side, depending on what the other side has...

You... have pretty damned good balance.

I never said its perfect. But its certainly NOT "Overpowered" No side is "over powered" One since may have an edge, that seems to be the concensus, however, its a slight edge if its even there.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 March 2015 - 03:13 PM.

[Fate 6]

Ultimatum X, on 21 March 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

This is why you think this is "asymmetrical" balance, basically because your judgement of the mechs and their performance is off.

The Stalker, even the 4N, is clearly not as good as either of those mechs.







No, this is not asymmetrical balance.


One faction having all of the literally top tier mechs and the other having mechs just a rung below that at their best, is not asymmetrical balance.

There are more clan mechs coming that will also occupy top tier slots.




You have people on these forums who really think that even mechs like the Summoner and Gargoyle are outright T5 garbage bin mechs, and this simply isn't true.


We can't have a conversation on game & faction balance, unless we have really objective judgements on the mechs themselves.


Saying a Stalker-4N is as good as a Dire Wolf, tells me that you aren't quite seeing the whole picture. No offense.

In competitive play Stalkers are replacing Dire Wolves because hitboxes, weapon placement, and tonnage. If they aren't even in terms if competitive ability then the advantage is shifting to the Stalker.

IS lights are miles ahead of Clan lights. Literally the only time you see clan lights in comp play is for streak cheese (Which is rare).

Thunderbolts are comparable to Hellbringers. The only clan mechs without equal are Stormcrows and Timberwolves, but that's only in general medium range combat. Dual gauss Jagers are the best dual gauss heavies, Thunderbolts are better brawl heavies, and Grid Irons are better medium snipers. Comp play really shows the mechs that are OP and right now it's split between IS and Clan pretty closely (though as I said, those 2 clan chassis show up a bit too much)

[Burktross]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

But all good players are looking for firing lanes that minimize their exposure and minimize the number of mechs that can fire on you while maximizing their own strengths.

Take Sulphorous for example. Moving into the middle gate, and taking the D4 and E4 firing lanes. Its a series of 1 on 1 fights. If those fights are all Wubshees vs Direwhales, the Direwhales always lose, because the damage projection from a Wubshee is higher at that close range, and the Whale simply cant out DPS you or out twist you and doesnt have awesome huge shield arms. The Banshees win.

Do that with Wubshees vs Timberwolves and the team loses. No amount of flanking or leadership really comes into play, its simply a matter of alpha potential and damage projection down thin firing lanes. If youre winning all of those, you win. If you lose, you lose.

Since there are mechs on both sides who can win that series against the other side, depending on what the other side has...

You... have pretty damned good balance.

I never said its perfect. But its certainly NOT "Overpowered" No side is "over powered" One since may have an edge, that seems to be the concensus, however, its a slight edge if its even there.

So it's not OP-- its rock paper scissors.
Seems pretty bad balance still, tbh.

[Scyther]

Old saying: "The proof is in the pudding." Meaning you can argue, counterexample and theorycraft all day long but in the end just look at the actual results.

I have purchased IS and Clan both, play both, I alternate between playing IS side and Clan side in CW, I don't track stats, I'm not comp player... all this to mean I have no particular bias.

All you have to do is look at the CW-time-lapse map to see who is kicking ass (it's Clans, btw, see msg 230 and 232):
http://mwomercs.com/...e/page__st__220

The question is, why? Well again you can argue and theorize, but basically, over time, competitive, win-at-all-costs, OR play-for-the-most-rewards type players, will analyze their OWN stats, see what they do best in, and play that. The best (in general) players will play (in general) the mechs they do best in.

Canon, lore, house oriented and newbie players will play the mechs they *want* to play... for reasons.

At the moment, it is blatant that Clans are doing better (by far) in CW. I don't think it's because they are handicapped by their mechs...

(Note: even if the clan edge is slight, and/or the CW maps slightly favor Clans... over time that will attract disproportionate numbers of more-competitive players to the Clan side. At which point they have the edge in mechs AND pilots... and that gives you the CW maps we have today.)

Edited by MadBadger, 21 March 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 21 March 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

People continuously try to justify their side using garbage mechs as examples.

Ignore the garbage mechs, for once.

Take the top IS mechs, and the top clan mechs. You have a Stalker, Thunderbolt, Hunchback/Wolverine, and Firestarter, vs a Daishi, Hellbringer/Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Kit Fox. What wins?

Looking at the mechs that have a consistent large game impact in of themselves... for IS that's basically just a Stalker. For clans that's a Daishi or Timberwolf. Both of the latter are better than the Stalker.

This whole thing is pointless to frame as clan vs. IS anyways. It's a dumb distinction that shields the real concern - overall game balance. TTK has gone down massively since clans/quirks, alphas are higher, engagement ranges are higher, and it's really not doing the game any favors.

When people are crying for blanket nerfs, you can't forget the garbage chassis'.

Especially when they can easily become less garbage, to potentially even good.



Once most of the mechs are on a decent baseline, you can have a few blanket nerfs without gimping the bad ones. As it stands, quirks aren't the most efficient way to do it for Clan mechs. Removing the Flamer on the Adder would do quite a bit, unless they want to give it 20% weapon cooldowns. It gives it a 5th, high mounted hardpoint.

[Sjorpha]

PGI, please release statistics on average performance per mech over time for different ELOs etc. Cure this madness, like Adiuvo is trying to do while drowned out by the noise of magical thinking.

A game is not balanced because everyone and their dog is complaining about different things, it is balanced when the top tier competitive choices are many, hard to make, and involves most of the game's content.

Nor is it asymmetrically balanced just because there is asymmetry in the strengths of different mechs, it isn't asymmetrically balanced until these strengths have an equal impact on the teams chances to win.

Someone who says clan lasers are bad is ignorant, it is like saying the firestarter is a bad light.

Contrary to some common intuitions, placing yourself in the "middle" of discussions vagely implying your enlightened neutrality isn't wisdom. It is one of the most useless and overrated behaviours in the history of human communication, because you are basically a slave to the postions you try to be neutral about while pretending independence. A good example is the media on climate change, writing about it as if it was some kind of "debate" *cringe*.

[Telmasa]

There's OP clan weapons. (ERML [it's a 1-ton IS LL, little too stronk], streaks [that range, wow])

There's OP IS mechs thanks to quirks. (Formerly Thunderbolt 9S & firestarters, not so much now - but dragons, wolverines, grid iron, that LRm10 hunchie, there's other examples out there. No mech ought to be able to pump out the same DPS, burst or sustained, as another twice its weight.)

I don't believe any clan mech is singularly OP.
- I do believe the Timberwolf can be good at anything; a jack of all trades that's not a true master of anything, but not mediocre at anything either. (I also think mechs shouldn't be able to alpha 2 "large"-class lasers along with 4+ medium lasers and receive 0 ghost heat, but that's not a problem unique to the Timberwolf - or even just clan mechs, for that matter.)
- Dire Wolf is an 100 ton Assault mech. King Crab can be outfitted very similarly (especially if you risk an XL engine). The Atlas is a poor comparison to the Dire Wolf because of a very different design philosophy. If the Stalker were 100 tons, it would also match the Dire Wolf.
- Stormcrow is only perceived to be OP because it can mount so many SRMs, and has enough tonnage/pod space to mass ERML and carry the maximum allowable number of heatsinks. I've not seen (or played) a stormcrow that's felt "overpowering" without the use of mass StreakSRMs - the regular SRMs hurt hard too, but only about the same as IS ones do. It has good hitboxes, and so what? There's quite a number of IS mechs that can spread damage well, too. I believe it's the imbalance of those two specific weapons that push perceptions of it over the edge.

I don't believe IS mechs are bad to the point that they can't compete with Clan mechs.

I believe map design should be seriously revisted and considered by PGI to avoid the 1-on-1-PPFLD "meta" LoL-lane-style maps, and bring us more maps in the style of Alpine Peaks, or the broad, spread-out maps of all kinds from MW4 & earlier titles.

I believe that if ERML/Streak-SRm6s were nerfed in some fashion, and that quirks had a glass ceiling enforced (or we continue the iterative trend, just apply it to all currently quirked mechs too), that would bring a huge leap forward towards the perceived balance of the game - and hence help cool the tides of arguments here on the forums in favor of either side. Changing the maps to change the flow of the game itself would go even further.

Edited by Telmasa, 21 March 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[Zoid]

Just because there's an argument doesn't mean nothing is wrong. Especially when most of those arguing have a vested interest in making sure their 'mechs are more powerful than the other side's 'mechs.


Remember: everyone has the perspective that smashing face in their favorite 'mech means they took an underdog out and owned with it because they are just so awesome, while getting their face smashed means the other side has an unfair advantage.

This is why you must look at actual data. The clans are progressing steadily towards Terra, so obviously they're not underpowered. Remember also that people were claiming the clans were just fine back before they ran a test and clan VS IS in the regular queue was 90% in favor of clans. It takes some pretty impressive cognitive dissonance to look at that kind of data and conclude everything is fine.

[Y E O N N E]

Telmasa, on 21 March 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

- Stormcrow is only perceived to be OP because it can mount so many SRMs, and has enough tonnage/pod space to mass ERML and carry the maximum allowable number of heatsinks. I've not seen (or played) a stormcrow that's felt "overpowering" without the use of mass StreakSRMs - the regular SRMs hurt hard too, but only about the same as IS ones do. It has good hitboxes, and so what?

I'm actually wondering why the 'Mechs like the BJ-1DC, BJ-1X, and BJ-A all have torso-twist penalties. What does this have to do with the Crow? Well, the those Blackjacks received those penalties ostensibly because they carry great firepower or move really quickly, especially compared to the remaining two variants.


So why, then, does the Crow have such amazing twist? I understand why it is fast, why it has the podspace it has, etc., but the torso twist abilities are not rooted in lore and are entirely up to PGI. It would stand to reason that the Crow should have something of a gimpy twist ability to offset its other exceptional qualities just like certain IS variants still have, but it doesn't.

What I'd like to see is those IS variants have their ridiculous penalties removed. There's little difference between a BJ-1X and a BJ-3 outside of engine capabilities, but the former has a hugely reduced yaw. What the hell?

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 March 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Eider]

No more thundergods so i would say no to is being op. And anyone and most dual guass soo...what else? broken hitboxes.. holy trinity of clan? yea i dont see it.

[Eider]

also to be more blunt clan has the better mechs in all but lights, is lights tend to wreck clan lights. My crab matches a daishi pretty well and anything, i dont go xl in it for reasons course. It comes down to weapon choices, exploits and broken mechanics. We know this to be true, like feathering or broken mechanics. That is why certain mechs are more popular.

[1453 R]

It's amazing to me how many folks are still arguing themselves blue in the face when everyone who's willing to be rational for five consecutive seconds knows what needs to happen by now.

Clan lasers, especially the C-ERML, need to be trimmed down a bit. Most Clan autocannons could use some tightening up. The Timber Wolf needs some adjustments. The entirety of the Spheroid quirk system then needs to be dialed back to where 30% quirks are the top end, not the ludicrous 40% or 50% we have now.

There's a good start point. Do that stuff, then see where balance is, instead of trying to fix everything in one shot.

You don't need to be an ultracomp to see where the imbalances are, you just need to be willing to admit that your own personal favorite toys might be as much a part of the issue as that hated OP nonsense on the other guy's side. 50% quirks are as awful for this game as Clan 'Holy Trinity' chassis are.

Unfortunately the community as a whole is too busy being a bunch of...well, honestly, guys doing the same thing they always do, to really get behind a set of proper fixes for the current state of affairs and push. The ultracomps are too busy making sure everyone else knows they're too dumb to live, the raging 3025'ers are too busy making sure everyone knows it's ALL THE CLANZ' FAWLT, the knee-jerk CoD tryhards are too busy making sure everyone knows that the real problem is a lack of 360 noscope shots in this game, the random casuals are too busy defending themselves on all sides from shots from all of the above even if those shots aren't aimed at them, and everyone in Creation is too busy getting hot and g'damned bothered to listen anymore.

People may remember this thread. I made it shortly after the original Wave I release, encouraging folks to sit back, play for a while, and let things settle. Folks may also recall that I've since been fairly active in trying to mitigate the endless procession of techbase-wide Clan nerfs and trying to stem the worst of the idiot CLANZ OP PRANA PLZ NERF nonsense.

I bring this up because I'm saying right now that things have settled and we know where things are. I'm a Clan player, and I'm telling you all that our lasers are a bit too good, our autocannons aren't quite good enough, the Timber Wolf needs some adjustments, the Stormcrow could probably stand to lose a few degrees of twist (and if you don't think that one caused me physical pain to admit...), the upcoming CXL nerf isn't the end of the world, and we're going to have to keep an eye on the Arctic Cheetah and the Cauldron-Born.

If I can admit to all that despite a strong preference for the Clan tech base, then you guys on the Inner Sphere side can admit that nothing good can come of 50% quirks, they do bad things to both individual chassis and gameplay as a whole, and the combination of Clan lasers being too good and 50% quirks being thrown out there to combat them has decreased TTK to a point a lot of players are clearly uncomfortable with.

Seriously. Why is it is incredibly difficult to admit that there's work to be done on both sides, instead of blaming one side or the other? Balance between the two is reasonably close right now, but it's skewed too far into power creep territory. Both sides need to be pulled back. So do that.

[Mystere]

KraftySOT, on 21 March 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Well, alot of the posts are right, this is getting ridiculous.

You guys do realize when you put in 50,000 words on a topic on either side, using completely asymmetrical examples, and both sides make fairly convincing if not convoluted points, it means the balance is pretty good right?

People have an agenda. I offer the decades-long anti-Clan Crusade as proof.

Edited by Mystere, 22 March 2015 - 05:56 PM.

[SaltBeef]

Asymetrical sucks balls and is boring and rips all over the years of books and reading , playing,and following Battletech / MechWarrior. I have really been trying to stay interested in the game despite all of the QUOTE Balance. I Hope when they release a single player campaign it sticks to lore instead of all of this everyone gets a friggin trophy crappola. Not my fault deadbeats cannot afford to buy the better mechs. Get a job and a life.

2 Cents rant Listen too it.

Edited by SaltBeef, 22 March 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

SaltBeef, on 22 March 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

Asymetrical sucks balls and is boring and rips all over the years of books and reading , playing,and following Battletech / MechWarrior. I have really been trying to stay interested in the game despite all of the QUOTE Balance. I Hope when they release a single player campaign it sticks to lore instead of all of this everyone gets a friggin trophy crappola. Not my fault deadbeats cannot afford to buy the better mechs. Get a job and a life.

Follow the lore? How? Offer a shipment of hormons, steroids and other enhancements to make Clan Jockeys better?
The lore and mainly the Clans are 100% born from the idea of a munchkin - (i liked to read Stackpole once)

Take TT for example how do you want to simulate a 2/3 Clan Pilot vs a 2/3 IS pilot? Ever looked in the "Scenario" books after the Clan Invasion - pure power creep - the balanced Natascha Kerensky from Dragoon BlackWidows turned from 3/4 to 0/0 Pilots - with dozens of other characters getting near those values.
There is no stuff like genetical enhancement in the rules of TT - so the cheapest option was to "improve" the weapons.

Funny is PGI did the same - the ER-Large Laser of the Clans deal the same damage per ms as the IS ER-Large Laser - but its burnduration is longer -be the smarter pilot in a Clan Machine means you can deal more damage per discharge, or you can argue that the ClanWeapon is hotter - simple mirroring the fact that you are not as smart as you want to be.

I can put any Clan Weapon in this - its simpler to hit stuff with clan weapons - longer burn duration DoT.... heck even have almost 90% to hit accuracy with the Clan UAC20.... simple because its really hard not to hit stuff- well you don't deal 100% damage but you deal something in comparison with the complete miss of the IS AC 20.

Also the AMS vs ClanLRM debate... oh poor ClanLRM boats don't get there damage where needed.... well you can fire 40 LRMs for the weight the iS can fire 20. And you don't have that terrible spread - i hate to fire IS LRM20...because 50% of the volley is plastering the hills and the ground - when target in open terrain with LOS. Didn't see much miss shots from a Clan LRM rack - not to mention the increased shake effect.
The is a reason that the IS LRM 5 is the best LRM weapon in the game - if i wan't to run my Zeus-9S with a LRM15 - i won't think twice and would mount 3 LRM 5s instead (reduced spread & 2 fire modes)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 March 2015 - 11:48 PM.