110 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

This is an explanation as to why what everyone thinks is possible, will never happen...

1.) Balance can be done from multiple angles, but there will always be variables in play that cannot be properly compared side by side. The only way to avoid this is to do something along the lines of SWTOR or another MMO where both sides are the same classes and same abilities EXACTLY with slightly different aesthetics sprinkled on top (also tends to be boring, but I digress).

2.) Regardless of all things being equal, there will always be a class/build/weapon/ability that is the "Flavor of the Month" or the strongest in the evolving meta game. Once that build is "tuned" something else will take the place of that one.

3.) Some things will never be top performing. This is something many of you must learn to accept, and just deal with it. The AWS will never have FS9 hit boxes...sorry...it will always be a tier 2 mech unless it is buffed to be so overpowered it has to be tuned back down. Why? Because even the Gargamel Clan mech has better hit boxes...and the Gargamel is worse than the AWS. This can be the result of poor hardpoints, poor hit boxes, bad equipment, or, in the case of clan mechs, over/under engined, no endo, limited hardpoints, bad hardpoint locations, etc.

4.) The meta is going to evolve, sometimes rapidly, sometimes not. Anyone else remember the jump snipe meta? Remember the QQ over it for an entire YEAR?! Now, we are down to several emergent meta games that depend on what you are bringing to what map. The current state of the meta game now is more diverse and balanced than it ever has been in the entirety of MWO's history. How people are complaining about that is beyond me...however, to each their own.

Hopefully this at least enlightens some of those making all the QQ threads with some insight from a developer. Balancing things is not easy, especially something like this. Frankly, the fact that this game has a performance delta around 5-ish% between the 2 tech trees is an achievement for this team. When you consider what was...this is a time where more chassis are viable, and more play styles are viable, than ever have been at once in the history of MWO. Enjoy it, and stop complaining. Go shoot stompy robots.

[Armorine]

Bravo!

[Asrrin]

I think that if PGI can get balance down to where there are at least a handful of FotM Mechs, and that small % changes are enough to cycle that list to some other FotM mech, it will be in a healthy spot. It's what Legue of LEgends does, and look how successful they are.

You are right in that with asymmetrical balance it will never be perfect. But they can get close enough that the "edge" of a top tier mech is thin enough to make player skill the most important thing. And now they have been closer than they ever where. If only we can tone down the Timby and doomcrow, and give a small amount of love to lower performing mechs, things would be in a good place.

Edited by Asrrin, 23 March 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[DaZur]

Biggest problem is most people see balance = / = balance... When the reality is balance = / = equity.

As you inferred unless "all thing being equal" balance is not something that is easily attainable...

The meta will automatically flow to the path or least resistance, i.e... regardless of how balance attempted is to be influence, meta will automatically change to the next min/max'd vetted composite.

It's inevitable and unavoidable... Welcome to chaos theory.

[Ovion]

Heh, gargamel.

[Adamski]

If PGI was interested in balance, CW would consist of the Clans fighting over Strana Mechty and the homeworlds for invasion corridors, while the Successor Houses fought over the Inner Sphere. This would allow the faction mechs to be balanced within their faction, then AFTER that is completed, begin the invasion and begin balancing the factions against one another.

[Rhaythe]

There is weapon balance, and then there is build balance. Weapon balance in MWO, I believe, is already very close to equality. Build balance, however, is very much skewed in clan favor, and that's unfortunately the part that most people see and the part PUGs especially have zero control over.

We will always have new players, and these players will gravitate toward the cheapest mechs. IS mech baselines will always be lower than Clans by the very nature of Clan mechs being competitive out of the box, whereas IS mechs take a lot of work. So long as that disparity exists, the illusion of imbalance will too.

Don't misread what I'm saying. I'm not saying make IS stocks have double heat-sinks or nerf stock Clanners and whatnot. This is a new player training issue, and this game does a shiet job in that department.

[Fragnot]

I agree about balance being impossible, not just here, but in any pvp game that features a multitude of factors such as class, builds, abilities, talents, etc.

I made a thread last week suggesting that PGI understands this too and will likely use the quirk system as a behind-the-scenes lever to keep the balance constantly shifting.

http://mwomercs.com/...tive-on-quirks/

[Mystere]

I don't think people even realize how many different variables are involved. Can anyone care to take a guess and list them all?

[Karl Streiger]

Lets start with Zeal..

[Mystere]

Asrrin, on 23 March 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

I think that if PGI can get balance down to where there are at least a handful of FotM Mechs, and that small % changes are enough to cycle that list to some other FotM mech, it will be in a healthy spot. It's what Legue of LEgends does, and look how successful they are.

Are you trying to state a cause and effect relationship? I sure hope not.

[kapusta11]

People from Blizzard might disagree with you.

[Elizander]

Skill, awareness and teamwork are pretty much hard to factor in for most players. I've seen people bring in 55 tonners with less firepower than a Jenner and many players waggle their crosshairs so much it makes me dizzy watching them. You cannot balance for low skill because people who don't know how to build, people who don't know how to play will always be bad. What PGI can do is make the game teach them to slowly get better and then balance around the top where there are less negative factors to affect balance.

[Mavairo]

Some mechs will never ever ever be actually good.

Like the Awesome.
PGI could give it pre nerf TDR 9S quirks, and then one up them by giving it +60 percent velocity...and it would still be crap.

[MerryIguana]

Gyrok, on 23 March 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Hopefully this at least enlightens some of those making all the QQ threads

Oh my god, the irony it burnnnns!

[Johnny Z]

Ozealot, on 23 March 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

But I am an ignorant imbecile and thus I do not understand.

You got a like from me on this one.

By the way, Im glad your honest and like your own replies with this account, where as many other use alt accounts to like thier own replies.

Edited by Johnny Z, 23 March 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Gyrok]

Mystere, on 23 March 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

I don't think people even realize how many different variables are involved. Can anyone care to take a guess and list them all?

Let us see...

Movement archetype
jump jet liftoff
jump jet angle
jump jet shake
acceleration
deceleration
torso twist angle
torso twist speed
pitch range
yaw range
arm movement angle
arm movement speed
cockpit visibility
ECM
endo steel
ferro fibrous
weapon damage
weapon duration
weapon cooldown
weapon heat
weapon range
weapon minimum range
ghost heat
residual heat
map temperatures
physics effects
hit box models
physical terrain models
visual sync between aesthetic and physical models
armor values
heat sink dissipation
heat sink heat cap value
elite skill tier values

That is just likely about 10% to give some an idea of values that can be tweaked.

[Gyrok]

DaZur, on 23 March 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Biggest problem is most people see balance = / = balance... When the reality is balance = / = equity.

As you inferred unless "all thing being equal" balance is not something that is easily attainable...

The meta will automatically flow to the path or least resistance, i.e... regardless of how balance attempted is to be influence, meta will automatically change to the next min/max'd vetted composite.

It's inevitable and unavoidable... Welcome to chaos theory.

You are far smarter than some give you credit for...

[Dagorlad13]

"Balance" is defined differently for each MWO player. "Balance" will never be achieved because:

a)Battlemechs, Clan / IS were never meant to be equal. There were always good chassis and bad chassis; this is part of Battletech ergo Mechwarrior.

b)Player ability / skill will never be equal (just like in every aspect of real life, like it or not).

c)Internet connections are not equal; this is an FPS, ping makes a difference (although it is compensated for more in MWO than in other FPS games).

d)Computer hardware is not equal, FPS (Frames Per Second) makes a difference. Stable framrates and ping alone will greatly improve your hit registration.

Edited by IronClaws, 23 March 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Gyrok]

MerryIguana, on 23 March 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

Oh my god, the irony it burnnnns!

Considering I have done satire posts about balance over the last few weeks...not sure where the irony is...? This time instead of playing the funny card, I am being quite serious...