214 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Ah, Hunchbacks. My favorite IS chassis. The workhorse of Closed Beta to present. Decently hard hitting, slow, well scaled XL Death traps. How do I love thee?

Except, (and this is the part that will get people wanting to lynch me) there is a whiff of a "P2W", nespotic fox in the hen house.

The GridIron.

In general, the HBKs were one of the best examples of how to quirk things toward each variant having its role and weapon identity. Not perfect, I have other threads about how I would change quirking in general, but in the system we got, pretty well done.

Over initial weeks, there was some QQ about the apidity of the big gun. But over time, that largely faded, as people came to realize that the HBK is still a slow, 50 ton mech, with 50 ton mech armor. It can punch hard, but it can't take much of one, in return, especially in these days of ever increasing alphas.

So, the issue? What makes the Gridiron a point of contention for me?

Exhibit A:
HBK-4G
Torso Pitch: 25 °
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 18.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
AC/20 RANGE: 12.50 %
BALLISTIC RANGE: 12.50 %
AC/20 COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
AC/20 VELOCITY: 12.50 %
BALLISTIC VELOCITY: 12.50 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -15.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 15.00 %

GRID IRON
Torso Pitch: 25 °
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 18.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
MEDIUM PULSE LASER RANGE: 25.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 25.00 %
MEDIUM PULSE LASER COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
GAUSS RIFLE COOLDOWN: 25.00 %
BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 25.00 %
MISSILE COOLDOWN: 15.00 %

HBK-4H
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 18.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT):
12.00 AC/10 RANGE: 10.00 %
BALLISTIC RANGE: 10.00 %
AC/10 COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
MEDIUM LASER COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
MEDIUM LASER HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 %

HBK-4J
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
LRM 10 COOLDOWN: 25.00 %
MISSILE COOLDOWN: 25.00 %
LRM 10 HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 %
MISSILE HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 15.00 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -15.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 12.00
LASER DURATION: -15.00 %

HBK-4P
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 18.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
MEDIUM LASER COOLDOWN: 7.50 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 7.50 %
MEDIUM LASER DURATION: -7.50 %
LASER DURATION: -7.50 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 %

HBK-4SP
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LT): 12.00
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 12.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 12.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
SRM 6 COOLDOWN: 20.00 %
MISSILE COOLDOWN: 20.00 %
LASER DURATION: -25.00 %
MEDIUM LASER HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 %
ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 %

Catch the discrepancy?

Other Ballistics, you see 20-25% TOTAL cooldown. The Gridiron matches that with it's generic ballistics quirks, then DOUBLES it with it's specialized Gauss quirk. It's literally a better HBK-4G and HBK-4H, on top of being well, a ridiculously rapid firing Gauss monster.

The Missile versions have similar cooldown buffs, but the weapon systems themselves are severely less effective, with more wasted ammo, worse heat, the SRMs having a massively short range, and neither one carrying enough ammo to really be as game changing as the buffs might indicate.

Simple truth, I don't think ANY mech should need THAT severe a quirk to be viable. And it doesn't, it's totally out of line with the rest of the mechs, and could be argued for being about as broken as the old TDR-9S quirks were.

Mind you, the Gauss is heavy. It''s slow with a charge mechanic. And it's fragile, so it probably should be a little more quirked than the others. but I would say closer to a 35% total Cooldown, not 50%.

My personal take on better balanced quirks?

GRID IRON
Torso Pitch: 25 °
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 37.50 %
TORSO TURN RATE (PITCH): 10.00 %
ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 18.00
ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 12.00
MEDIUM PULSE LASER RANGE: 25.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 25.00 %
MEDIUM PULSE LASER COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 12.50 %
GAUSS RIFLE COOLDOWN: 25.00 %
BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
GAUSS RIFLE HITPOINT INCREASE: +10.00

Cheers! Feel free to post well thought out counterarguments, optional proposals, etc.


​Anyhow, just my 2 cts for the afternoon, with that, as I am sure the QQ from those who feel their pet ride and honor have been impugned will be rather intense..... I leave you with

[Sarlic]

They Grid's can sure crank out some good DPS. Especially with a gauss rifle.

However, they're still fairly easy to destroy.

Unfortunatly i do see many people using the Grid wrong. Particular positioning with a Gauss rifle in your hands. Aside from the DW's.

[MikeBend]

Still rare sighth on the battlefield, at least on my elo level. Never found it to be a problem. Dont have one either. My favorite Hunch is 4P.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarlic, on 24 March 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

They Grid's can sure crank out some good DPS. Especially with a gauss rifle.

However, they're still fairly easy to destroy.

Unfortunatly i do see many people using the Grid wrong. Particular positioning with a Gauss rifle in your hands. Aside from the DW's.

well, they don't die any easier than any other Hunchback...except when you get pilots who don't know how to use a Glass Rifle. (Like popping an XL in a HBK).

Sadly, pilot stupidity is not a good basis for game balance, lol.

MikeBend, on 24 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Still rare sighth on the battlefield, at least on my elo level. Never found it to be a problem. Dont have one either. My favorite Hunch is 4P.

I'm going to assume, your Elo is somewhat high in which case, yes, the SCR will reign supreme. More versatile, undying C-XL, broken walking animation magic armor.......

[Kristov Kerensky]

I spectated someone in a GI, and I was wondering wtbf was going on, this guy was firing his gauss as fast as he could charge it! I looked at the quirks and realized what was wrong. 50% cd on gauss combined with a gauss cd module = damn near automatic gauss rifle.

IS quirks have seriously gone overboard, especially the weapon quirks, they need to be removed totally in my opinion, and failing that, limited to no more than a 15% total boost to range/cd/heat generation. IS weapons, even in specialized Mechs that the lore/fluff says use certain weapons better, should NOT equal or exceed Clan ranges outs and cds, since that means they'll out DPS their Clan opposites and that's wrong on so many levels.

[Rhaythe]

Gauss slugs at AC2 refire rates. What's not to love?

[KraftySOT]

The GI is a great, great mech. It has its drawbacks, but that Gauss is fantastic. If you did that to the other HBKs, they wouldnt all be in the trash pile.

[DarthPeanut]

What changed Bishop?

As of December you where asserting that the GI was the least strong of your hunchbacks and that the GI was actually fairly in line for quirks, not p2w or overpowered. (Which I agreed with mostly as I still think the 4G is better.)

http://mwomercs.com/...uirks-too-good/

Like I said then... "Let's put some perspective on it. You have the heaviest and most easily crit weapon in a barn door of a torso.. with a firing mechanic... which explodes when crit and most likely kills you... while being ammo limited... with 50 toner armor. I could go on but you get the point. Grid Irons are decent now at a niche' weapon playing peek a boo. I will know what to do if I see one."

No less with case not protecting Gauss dmg transfer right now... yeeeeaaaaa go ahead and take one.

GI can do really well if you are a good player with good positioning. If not you die miserably and with average numbers at best. High risk but potentially high reward depending on the situation, not p2w or out of line imo.

Edit for slightly clarifications.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 24 March 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[KraftySOT]

That was also before CW right?

GI didnt come into his own until the big open fields of CW. Hes still subpar in puglandia. The other HBKs are better there. So everything Bishop said then was right on. I still find it on point. Though to be fair now, doing these quirks to HBKs would make them better in puglandia, but still not much better in CW. Perhaps a tad.

Now PGI has two game modes to worry about. Hence clans getting 2% things and 1% things. Theyre gun shy.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthPeanut, on 24 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

What changed?

As of December you where arguing the GI was the least strong of your hunchbacks and that the GI was actually fairly well in line for quirks.

http://mwomercs.com/...uirks-too-good/

Like I said then... "Let's put some perspective on it. You have the heaviest and most easily crit weapon in a barn door of a torso.. with a firing mechanic... which explodes when crit and most likely kills you... while being ammo limited... with 50 toner armor. I could go on but you get the point. Grid Irons are decent now at a niche' weapon playing peek a boo. I will know what to do if I see one."

No less with case not protecting Gauss dmg transfer right now... yeeeeaaaaa go ahead and take one.

I believe I also corrected myself at some point when I saw the percentages. It's still my worst HBK, but then I am not a particularly good used of Goose on mobile mechs.

I also believe in letting things play out a bit before jumping all over it. I still don't find it terribly desirable, unless I run a 4G or 4H loadout on it. Nor do I die to them with any regularity. But Quirks have been around long enough to start tweaking the outliers. Simply on paper, the GI is over quirked.

Or would you prefer I just stick my head in the sand and never change, no matter what evidence is presented? It tends to be how most people act when PGI finally does something we ask, after all.

[CycKath]

Only just bought one during the Pot of Gold sales and loving how it pumps out slugs, its the first 'Mech I've persisted and retained the Gauss Rifle since the charge was introduced.

But the quirks are fairly counteracted by how much of a glass cannon it is, can't trade fire worth a damn at all. Perhaps its recent bug with CASE, perhaps my lack of experience with the gauss rifle because I skipped them since the charge was introduced, but so so many deaths at about 75% to Weapon Explosions...

Edited by CycKath, 24 March 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I spectated someone in a GI, and I was wondering wtbf was going on, this guy was firing his gauss as fast as he could charge it! I looked at the quirks and realized what was wrong. 50% cd on gauss combined with a gauss cd module = damn near automatic gauss rifle.

IS quirks have seriously gone overboard, especially the weapon quirks, they need to be removed totally in my opinion, and failing that, limited to no more than a 15% total boost to range/cd/heat generation. IS weapons, even in specialized Mechs that the lore/fluff says use certain weapons better, should NOT equal or exceed Clan ranges outs and cds, since that means they'll out DPS their Clan opposites and that's wrong on so many levels.

Yes, the Machine gun gauss Grid Iron is ridiculous! My only issue is i cant have enough ammo to kill the whole enemy team!

Its easy mode for Hunchies when i get in that thing!

CycKath, on 24 March 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Only just bought one during the Pot of Gold sales and loving how it pumps out slugs, its the first 'Mech I've persisted and retained the Gauss Rifle since the charge was introduced.

But the quirks are fairly counteracted by how much of a glass cannon it is, can't trade fire worth a damn at all. Perhaps its recent bug with CASE, perhaps my lack of experience with the gauss rifle because I skipped them since the charge was introduced, but so so many deaths at about 75% to Weapon Explosions...

CASE is still bugged, so you die when they hit the gauss mounted in a ST. I have given up on running any gauss builds until after the fix on April 7th....which is insanely long but eh.

Edited by DarthRevis, 24 March 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

That was also before CW right?

GI didnt come into his own until the big open fields of CW. Hes still subpar in puglandia.

Naw, he still can be just as good as any other ballistics HBK in PUGLandia, it's just most people don't know how to use and position a GR mech that well in puglandia. But it's hard to do maximum dmg with a Gauss MG if you are not well supported and protected.

[Sarlic]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 March 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I spectated someone in a GI, and I was wondering wtbf was going on, this guy was firing his gauss as fast as he could charge it! I looked at the quirks and realized what was wrong. 50% cd on gauss combined with a gauss cd module = damn near automatic gauss rifle.

IS quirks have seriously gone overboard, especially the weapon quirks, they need to be removed totally in my opinion, and failing that, limited to no more than a 15% total boost to range/cd/heat generation. IS weapons, even in specialized Mechs that the lore/fluff says use certain weapons better, should NOT equal or exceed Clan ranges outs and cds, since that means they'll out DPS their Clan opposites and that's wrong on so many levels.

The Dragon for example can shoot AC/5 at a rate of a AC/2.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah anything that does fire support is tough in puglandia. If they leave you, youre dead, if a light shows up, youre dead, if the entire team goes and dies, youre dead.

And of course some maps are better than others. River City Night is Grid Irons nightmare.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

The GI is a great, great mech. It has its drawbacks, but that Gauss is fantastic. If you did that to the other HBKs, they wouldnt all be in the trash pile.

well used the HBK 4G, 4J and 4P are all great mechs. 4H is even solid..it just has a bit of an identity crisis. Considering 650 dmg and 4-5 kills is a pretty constant theme in my HBK-4G, and has been for quite some time (and uh, I don't play in the kiddie pool. I may not be 1337, but I know my mech).

Anyone who thinks they are bad mechs? Doesn't know how to use them.

Sarlic, on 24 March 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

The Dragon for example can shoot AC/5 at a rate of a AC/2.

And I think it's borderline and due for about a 10% reduction to the cooldown, but I don't tend to find them that overboard in general. Though I suck at driving them, lol.

[KraftySOT]

Geez I need to watch you pilot one, all the HBKs I had before quirks long ago were terrible. Since quirks I bought an SP for hilarity, to stop light rushes in CW, but my general feeling grinding it was "why are there even medium mechs?".

Everything kills you. Lights can do multiple 40 point alpha strikes, heavies can too, assaults just laugh at you, and youre stuck with short range weapons that basically require your team to position well so you can Kool Aid Man into a fight and back out. I aint got time for that.

The only time I did well or see them get kills is when some poor light runs face first into the AC20. Or admittedly, when I was bad, I loved to use the thing to run around and steal kills, since 20 PPFLD is still awesome.

Its just way less awesome now after TTK has been annihilated by the quirkpocalypse.

Edited by KraftySOT, 24 March 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

KraftySOT, on 24 March 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

That was also before CW right?

GI didnt come into his own until the big open fields of CW. Hes still subpar in puglandia. The other HBKs are better there. So everything Bishop said then was right on. I still find it on point. Though to be fair now, doing these quirks to HBKs would make them better in puglandia, but still not much better in CW. Perhaps a tad.

Now PGI has two game modes to worry about. Hence clans getting 2% things and 1% things. Theyre gun shy.

No, CW was already out. I was playing it in CW a bit at that time and personally I preferred a Shadowhawk gauss build or dual gauss Jager over the GI. GI was fun as well though.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 March 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I believe I also corrected myself at some point when I saw the percentages. It's still my worst HBK, but then I am not a particularly good used of Goose on mobile mechs.

I also believe in letting things play out a bit before jumping all over it. I still don't find it terribly desirable, unless I run a 4G or 4H loadout on it. Nor do I die to them with any regularity. But Quirks have been around long enough to start tweaking the outliers. Simply on paper, the GI is over quirked.

Or would you prefer I just stick my head in the sand and never change, no matter what evidence is presented? It tends to be how most people act when PGI finally does something we ask, after all.

Fair enough and I stated no preference in what you do but just asked what changed.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 24 March 2015 - 12:42 PM.

[Sarlic]

Something different though. More offtopic.

Having a blast in Jagers on a different account (on my housemate's, same computer)
Topping average 600-800 damage in a match.

I really need to make my housemate shut up though. Sometimes he trash talks too much, ha.

Never expected Jagers to be that fun. And even brawl-able.

Personally made the builds for him.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 March 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

Why is today "Bishop Steiner's vendetta bucket list release day"?

Since there is no event for now, I should have enough time posting about stuff... but that is neither here nor there.

The Gauss Iron is nice, but it has its set of weaknesses. Still, I'm not panicking about that, but the dual UAC5 Grid Iron was at least reasonably interesting (since you can't run XL on that) before the requirkening because people wanted it with a Gauss quirk.

Congrats to getting one crazy build over another.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 March 2015 - 12:45 PM.