76 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 24 March 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

STD engine on a 40 tonner...

Hey, we joke about those STD engine lights/mediums, but back in the mektek MW4 heyday, the Strider and Wolfhound were the best light end LL boats for the IS. Both had exceedingly good hitboxes/profile and the ability to boat LL decently not to mention STD engines.

Granted there are other reasons they could pull that off as well, but nothing quirks wouldn't have been able to fix, just like the RVN-2X.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 24 March 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well the first Omnis would be hard to balance them.
But restrictions for Clans should be 100% for Is Omnis either
Would i buy one of the first Is Omnis?
Nope - keep your coffins

Different story the later Is Omnis
Hauptmann, MenShen, the Celestials... Well shut up and take my money

[Lordred]

I would say Yes, keep the restrictions the same with one exception.


Any IS omni which was not DHS, should be converted to DHS. I doubt that any clan player would mind that concession.

[kapusta11]

Easily:

Unlock customization for both IS and Clan Omnis
Balance Clan and IS TECH 1:1
Remove quirks (aside from armor/internals structure ones for oversized mechs like Awesome, Hunchback, Nova etc.)

Really, what other choiced do we have? Uberquirks for IS Omnis? Ubernerfs for Clan Battlemechs? Nerfs for Clan Omnis that don't suffer from poor geometry, lack of hardpoints, poor hardpoint layout, oversized/undersized engine, fixed useless JJs and flamers, lack of endo/ferro and thus are not "balanced" and "OP"?

Edited by kapusta11, 24 March 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[One Medic Army]

So, what would be the problem with giving them full customization and only IS tech?

[SaltBeef]

They don't Balance until they get, Er tech, x- pulse tech, reactive, reflective, armor, ultra autocannons ( should mirror clan exactly except weigh a bit more ) thunderbolt missiles, light guass , rotary AC and swarmer , thunder lrm. Game should advance to 3060.

[Karl Streiger]

kapusta11, on 24 March 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Easily:

Unlock customization for both IS and Clan Omnis
Balance Clan and IS TECH 1:1
Remove quirks (aside from armor/internals structure ones for oversized mechs like Awesome, Hunchback, Nova etc.)

Really, what other choiced do we have? Uberquirks for IS Omnis? Ubernerfs for Clan Battlemechs? Nerfs for Clan Omnis that don't suffer from poor geometry, lack of hardpoints, poor hardpoint layout, oversized/undersized engine, fixed useless JJs and flamers, lack of endo/ferro and thus are not "balanced" and "OP"?

This 100% this

Most of us should know what is in beyond the horizon - every system has to be balanced even according to stuff not "in the timeline" yet.
Its the same as it was with the "Bad Pinpoint make Hardpoint Sizes" - balance idiom. Hardpoint Sizes would have worked for a couple of months - but the King Crab - or other Mechs to come (I hope) like Annihlator or Devastator would have made this "balance" NIL - and you should have need to find another balance. *)

To prevent such - you need to make a logic check - does my current system work for IS Omnis?
Its not - i don't expect the Avatar to get slim side torsos -or the Black Hawk KU (inferior to the Nova if possible) to get a narrow profile. With locked SHS; Reactor and equipment without worth (C3 - ok they "solved" the APod problem") - you may have to make "exceptions" - i don't expect the "Clan Noob Tubie Zealots" to keep at bay and accept that as necessary.

Same could be said about Clan Second Liner - how should those Mechs be balanced? Well the Kodiak has low weapon hps - but what about the Predator?

---

footnote
*) i admit today my opinion has changed i am 100% for "hardpoint" sizes - not because i think it will magically solve stuff - but it will solve the "weapon" size problematic - the Medium Laser don't have to be as small/big as the Large/Small Laser - the PPC don't have to fit in the torso of a FireStarter - and AC 20s and AC 5s could get sizes that fit the model they are supposed to be carried on - JaegerMech

[Lucian Nostra]

Easy keep em Omni locked. will they suck? you better believe it.. might be 1 or 2 good ones. but you keep telling us how amazing those swappable omnipods are soon you'll get to enjoy em too!

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 24 March 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[Roadbuster]

I'd say, give them their own set of quirks. Weaker than the normal ones.

Other than that, I think the advantage of Clan XL engines and CASE on every Omnipod is enough.
Either have survivability but lack speed or firepower, or be easy to destroy.

Edited by Roadbuster, 25 March 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Evan20k, on 24 March 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Locked Engines + unlocked FF/ES/DHS + Strategically locked structure/armor slots. There's a middle ground to be found between clan Omnis and IS battlemechs.

I cannot agree. What is good for one must hold true for the other. Omnis have locked structure armor type and Sinks. Giving one the option to switch and not the other is not fair at all.

[Xeren KelDar]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

I cannot agree. What is good for one must hold true for the other. Omnis have locked structure armor type and Sinks. Giving one the option to switch and not the other is not fair at all.

I actually agree with you on that. Unlocking FF,ES, and heat sinks for both Clan and IS would be what I would look at. It won't affect the worst offenders for clans (Mad Cat) and may give some of the weaker omnis (Summoner) a boost.

[Diablobo]

IS Omnimechs don't come out for another couple of years (3055 I believe), so it's not something we really have to worry about right now.

Maybe by then PGI will have decided to give us a decent heat system.

[Karl Streiger]

The Raptor was 3052 - as said better to think now than to change all the stuff then.

OK maybe PGI has a plan that they know that MWO would not life to see a 5th birthday

[CDLord HHGD]

1:1 they shouldn't be balanced. PGI needs to give the IS a tonnage advantage. Clans work off a "star" of 5 mechs and the IS a "lance" of four. In TT, it was two stars vs three lances or 10v12 mechs. Since PGI is unable to do this for some God unknown reason, it falls to tonnage to make up the difference.

I speculate the issue is that clanners and IS are allowed to drop on the same side in regular drops (not CW) so it'll be impossible for the MM to balance this with just numbers.

I propose they give the clan mechs a 10% ghost tonnage increase that isn't visible to us.

Edited by cdlord, 26 March 2015 - 06:15 AM.

[FupDup]

cdlord, on 26 March 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

1:1 they shouldn't be balanced. PGI needs to give the IS a tonnage advantage. Clans work off a "star" of 5 mechs and the IS a "lance" of four. In TT, it was two stars vs three lances or 10v12 mechs. Since PGI is unable to do this for some God unknown reason, it falls to tonnage to make up the difference.

There's a lot of issues with intentionally making the Clans > IS...

But even ignoring that, we still have the issue of Inner Sphere Omnimechs being outright inferior to Inner Sphere Battlemechs.

[Karl Streiger]

cdlord, on 26 March 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

1:1 they shouldn't be balanced. PGI needs to give the IS a tonnage advantage. Clans work off a "star" of 5 mechs and the IS a "lance" of four. In TT, it was two stars vs three lances or 10v12 mechs. Since PGI is unable to do this for some God unknown reason, it falls to tonnage to make up the difference.

I speculate the issue is that clanners and IS are allowed to drop on the same side in regular drops (not CW) so it'll be impossible for the MM to balance this with just numbers.

I propose they give the clan mechs a 10% ghost tonnage increase that isn't visible to us.

I can tell you why.
Because when this game would have been balanced around 10 vs 12.... well the Clans would already would have fallen over at the wrong end of the IS - not because 10 vs 12 would not be balanced -but because nobody want to drive that mech that is so obvious underpowered that you need a "fixed" overweight to made it balanced.

Consider for the first months Clans was PUG only - so there would have been two queues - those that drop with IS and those that drop with Clan (Ok that should have been implemented from day one - to prevent - baseline balance discussion in CW beta)

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 26 March 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

There's a lot of issues with intentionally making the Clans > IS...

But even ignoring that, we still have the issue of Inner Sphere Omnimechs being outright inferior to Inner Sphere Battlemechs.

I guess they could let them survive the ST blowout...


It's an option. A distinct advantage over their optimally engined brethren. Some don't need that advantage, others need far more than that.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Praetor Knight, on 24 March 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

Maybe.


30 universal heat cap.
SHS at 0.20
DHS at 0.40

Plus quirks, might be a reasonable start.

DHS: 2.0
SHS: 1.4

Then, use 10% of your TT coolant as your heat loss per second...

28DHS(56Heat loss) 5.6 Coolant per second.
20SHS@1.4(28heat loss) 2.8 coolant per second.

THen add current masteries and stuff to buff it a bit.

[MrZakalwe]

FupDup, on 24 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

They'd still be weaker than DHS mechs though, no matter what the heat system looks like.

Not necessarily- if the heat system was changed so dbl heatsinks didn't increase heat capacity, only cooling then singles would be good for big burst alphas while doubles would provide better DPS.

Not impossible, just awkward.

[Metus regem]

Davers, on 24 March 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Best solution? No IS Omnimechs. No Clan IIc mechs.

This sadly, is probably for the best, as with the way the DEV team has dealt with Omni's, the IS ones would be eclipsed by the Battlemches, just as if they introduce Clan Battlemechs, they will eclipse the Clan Omni's...

The core of this issue, is that IS battlemechs basically enjoy having factory level customization options, while Omni's have to obey omni construction rules. Also with out repair and rearm time, the 'advantage' of Omni mechs is lost with in MWO's instant full repair and reload method.