77 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Lynx7725, on 26 March 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

A serious question -- are the maps without ample opportunities to flank, or are you not seeing the opportunities to flank?

I run around in my Hunchback a lot nowadays and in most games I work to flank the enemy lines. In every map. a very memorable HPG game had me sitting out on one flank on my lonesome and raining down fire on the enemy while the rest of my team was too off to beat off a centerline attack. In another on River I managed to flank the enemy from the Starport side while the team was holding the line over on the Citadel side.

In Bog, it gets a bit confusing but by extending my team's MLR I often managed to get around the enemy's sides; in Mining, I hadn't had the time on the map, but it looks to be an excellent map for flanking. On Forest, I had a very irate Mechwarrior lead most of an entire team on a flanking shoreline run that resulted in the enemy back end being royally reamed and winning the match in under 4 minutes.

Flanking is a concept that is defined by where the enemy is, not by the map. If you run down one side and run into the enemy and as a result the enemy forms up a line against you there, it's not the map's problem -- it's what happen when two opposing forces run into each other and deploy as best they can fit on the terrain. The maps provide many opportunities and routes, and is designed that way. The difference is whether the Mechwarriors see the opportunities and are able to take advantage of them either as main attack route or flanking runs.

The maps devolve into one of two choke points, precisely because they are difficult and nearly impossible to flank against, any cooridinated team on.

[Lynx7725]

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

The maps devolve into one of two choke points, precisely because they are difficult and nearly impossible to flank against, any cooridinated team on.

Ok. Which ones?

[MechWarrior3671771]

"You are gonna get shot in the back. I'm getting real tired of players not having any situational awareness. If you run into the line of fire of an Atlas, Dire Wolf or Crab... You deserve every bit of their fire. Walk behind them not in their way!"

1) when I'm in my light, it's usually because I scouted and made first contact with the enemy, and their Atlas/Dire/Crabs are ticked at me and I'm running for my life trying to get back to my team. I often don't have any other choice but to cross into your firing line. And its okay if you kill me - its still my fault. Just don't yell at me about it.

2) when I'm in my assault, yup its very irritating when I have great firing lane set up and some guy sets up in it 10 feet in front of me. So I agree with you here.

[Mavairo]

Lynx7725, on 26 March 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ok. Which ones?

It's more like which ones dont
Everyone goes for the same spots on any given map. hard to flank positions, where there's only a narrow inlet to fire through.

Pug Zapper in Terra Therma.

The cave, and cove in Forest Colony... either side.

HPG, and the center structure either high side or low....and that from that point you can see literally every other point on the map worth mentioning and blow people away once you have it.

Bog.... B3/B4.

Crimson Strait, always comes down to either the saddle, the tunnel, or the lower city, across from the parking deck.

Frozen city, with the gunline positions on the side of the ridge...or amid the buildings.

Just to cite the ones off the top of my head.

Any team worth it's salt in comms can easily respond to any assault from a flank attempt while still dealing with the lionshare of the threat from the front on those maps.

Edited by Mavairo, 26 March 2015 - 10:03 PM.

[Stoned Prophet]

Curccu, on 26 March 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Well you know there are mechs that are way faster than Direwolfs, Atlais or King Crabs so it's kinda impossible to be spearhead always... And some assault mechs are not designed to be that spearhead.
Also sometimes silly people in their greed just want to walk into endless stream of Direwolf dakka or something similarly stupid.

So, Learn to control your fire since you KNOW youre not gonna be the front? Oh no, its the OTHER guys fault you lack situational awareness..

[Lynx7725]

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Pug Zapper in Terra Therma.

Pug Zapper as you noted is very exceptional because the location is only accessible by inlets; this is an exception and not the norm in map design. People fight at Pug Zapper because they are assured of a fight in Pug Zapper -- when one team doesn't play by this, the game changes remarkably. I'd agree that the design there is bad, but it appears to be intentional for it to be a bad place to fight.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

The cave, and cove in Forest Colony... either side.

The tunnel isn't meant for a major push; it's too narrow and the entrances are too small to allow for a whole team to go through. It's meant as a small flanking force to go through. I can't help it if teams don't think about attack frontages and ability to project firepower and try to squeeze too many mechs in.

Having said that, the low side cave exit area and the fight zone can easily be flanked; just go through C3/ C4, taking the shoreline and staying out of sight until you circle around. Hitting a few enemy at the archway from the back is usually sufficient to draw off defenders at the archway and allow for a tunnel breakout. You can also go for the usual LRM backfield that bad LRM boaters usually hide in C4.

On the high side, the mining camp is indeed a deathtrap and that is why the tunnel push should not be done with a big group -- too easy to get hit and arty'ed. In Forest however, that gives a secondary hidden pass that you can can flank down past; in Forest Snow that pass is blocked, which leads to more direct confrontations.

Also, the open water is actually good as a flanking route. Despite its "openness", Smurfy death heatmap doesn't show that many death in it. It's actually possible to dart from shelter to shelter and flank down that way, just again not as a big group; a small group of lights can do this easily -- and it's often done.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

HPG, and the center structure either high side or low....and that from that point you can see literally every other point on the map worth mentioning and blow people away once you have it.

No. There are enough high structures that I can do quick dashes between them to avoid fire. In the HPG game I mentioned, the enemy team took the high center, but I moved my Hunchback around the perimeter, using my speed and cover to avoid detection until I was in place to flank.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Bog.... B3/B4.

Bog B3/B4? Normally my fights on Bog go on C3/C4. That gives me room to flank to either side.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Crimson Strait, always comes down to either the saddle, the tunnel, or the lower city, across from the parking deck.

The saddle is a choke, I agree. The tunnel, not so much as there's a T-junction and secondary entrance you can use to crossfire. In addition, the tunnel is so sadly short that you can get mechs on both sides of the entrances and trap the enemy within. Just because teams get fixated with try to whack a mole at the tunnel mouth doesn't mean others have to jockey across -- typically, at most three mechs can fire into the tunnel at best, so any in excess is just wasting time. If you find yourself in that situation and still jockey for position there, then I can't say anything much.

The lower city itself, I presume you mean the peninsula area, is a great place to flank. Lights and mediums can end run around a heavy line (because the heavy line doesn't move fast enough), it's just that a lot of them want to get stuck in fast and do frontal attack. With a bit of patience, a light and medium force can slip around the side of the enemy MLR and get stuck in the back. That's very disruptive.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Frozen city, with the gunline positions on the side of the ridge...or amid the buildings.

Frozen is one of those that the map absolutely demands flanking. If it's along the ridgeline, there's always the tunnel or the sea; lights can easily slip behind and I've seen a whole lance of heavies and assaults pop out through the tunnel. Even if not, a simple line extension and quick darts across the ridge can break a line.

If it's in the buildings, that's even more of a flank opportunity; fighting in the buildings makes it easy to flank the enemy, but also to get flanked yourself. The key to control is the C4 plains; taking control of it would increase the likelihood of a win, and allow a flanking attack in either direction.

Mavairo, on 26 March 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

Any team worth it's salt in comms can easily respond to any assault from a flank attempt while still dealing with the lionshare of the threat from the front on those maps.

That applies both on the offense and the defense; teamwork is OP, if both teams have teamwork, then it becomes who has more teamwork.

[Curccu]

Stoned Prophet, on 26 March 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

So, Learn to control your fire since you KNOW youre not gonna be the front? Oh no, its the OTHER guys fault you lack situational awareness..

Well if there is visible stream of small glowing fireballs between me and enemy mech, there is absolutely nothing wrong in his situational awareness...

PS. not sure are you trying to answer to the underlined part of quoted text of mine or that endless stream part
PSS. I dare to say I have pretty good control of my fire and situational awareness.

[Mondeza]

Typhon27, on 26 March 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

I do not understand what is going on when, i am working a position, ducking in 'n' out and exchanging fire, you know I'm not moving anywhere. Then suddenly, a guy walks over and plonks himself down right in front of me, like I haven't been there for the last couple of minutes.

This actually happened to me last night. I was in a Medium Between buildings firing on the enemy moving into and out of cover......not far at all. For a minute or so. Dire Wolf walks up behind me (only space for one mech in here) and opens up on me and then complains that I am in his way. Seriously?!?

I play assaults from time to time but I am a better medium pilot. I watch the team and the game but just because you in an assault doesn't mean I must give up my spot to you because you like it. It also doesn't mean that you can step in front of me of reverse and I must get out your way if I was there for awhile.

Kinda goes both ways though. Be aware of your team and the enemy.

[BreakinStuff]

If I am in my crab, unless I screw up and make a wrong turn at the stoplight, hit an enemy lance that's got range on me and realize I have no support?

I ain't backing up. There's few things more effective at breaking a line than a charging assault mech. If I got backup then "Hello friend! I am a big, metal, walking distraction here to make you poop yourself while the anklebiters swarming past me crawl up your ass and kill you."

By the same token, being in a lighter mech and realizing that an atlas is crashing down upon you 50 meters away is a purely brown trouser moment.

That being said, as an assault, if I have an enemy in the crosshairs, I'm taking the shot. Don't run your pretty little stormcrow across my front. Go behind me and keep going. I don't really care that my dual AC/20s or dual UAC 20s just tore half your mech off. I do care that those bullets that were intended for the timber wolf pissing me off got blocked.

[Reitrix]

Lynx7725, on 26 March 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

That's not a problem. It's a design feature. It's deliberate.

A big chunk of warfare, even a simulated and watered down one like MWO, is to make use of terrain. If PGI just gave us flat open plains to shoot in, it'd be a very boring place. The choke points, the lack of LOS, the overall design -- it's all done in a considered approached.

I understand what you're saying, but there are maps, Crimson especially, around the saddle, You either push through that narrow hill or walk around the entire length of the map to "attack from another angle". And any attempt to actually do that gets your team curbstomped because as soon as the enemy team sees some of your team moving off or otherwise not in a huge clump they WILL murderball over that hill and wipe you out.

We need maps that have LOTS of LoS breaks, LOTS of chokepoints and LESS open spaces.
The Pugzapper in Terra Therma is my favorite area specifically because you can have your Assaults roll up to one ingress point and send your Mediums to another entrance without the enemy team being able to see that you aren't 12 strong in that pile.

We need less visibility in our maps. I actually like HPG a lot because even at the top/middle of the map you cannot see the entire battlefield.

Sorry, /rant.

[LordMelvin]

I'll admit, I've stepped out in front of allies and been blasted. Ate dual gauss to the back one time because I chose the wrong moment to drop a UAV. Naturally I apologized for my mistake.

However sometimes it is the fault of assault mechs. I had an LRM warhawk move up behind me one game and fire a volley of missiles directly into my backside. Fortunately it was under 180m so it barely hurt, but it startled me since I wasn't expecting LRMs.

With the addition of voice chat I usually call out when I'm moving up around mechs engaged in combat so that they know where I am.

[Gyrok]

DjPush, on 26 March 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

You are gonna get shot in the back. I'm getting real tired of players not having any situational awareness. If you run into the line of fire of an Atlas, Dire Wolf or Crab... You deserve every bit of their fire. Walk behind them not in their way!

I have gotten to the point that when people do this and I have a shot about to rip...I rip it anyway...

Was playing the Gauss + LPL + ERML DW last night, fired Gauss, and a LRM60 awesome walks out in front of my laser alpha and instantly loses RT in the process....starts complaining in chat, of course...

I told him "You ran out in front of my beams man, once they are gone I cannot call them back...pay attention next time..."

If he had been paying attention to the blue wubs and yellow beams to his right side, he probably would not have walked his mech completely in front of my alpha strike...whatever...

[Almond Brown]

Lynx7725, on 26 March 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Actually no. Walk beside them and support them with fire from a different direction. Give each other room to work and work to flank the enemy so that they have to expose a vulnerable side to a friendly. Teamwork is OP!

Indeed. One can also move Laterally in a Mech as well. This assumption that there are ONLY 2 ranges of motion is crazy. So we have 4 motions allowed in these formats. (Up and Down are a twinned pair)

Forward
Reverse
Sideways (Lateral/Diagonal)
(and if JJ equipped)
Up and Down.

Use them ALL people.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 March 2015 - 06:02 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Davers, on 26 March 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

Assault mech pilots are the most whiny of all the classes. It's all "Don't stand in front of me!" and "Don't stand behind me!". Then they cry "Don't leave me behind!". They are the equivalent of prima donna ADCs in LoL- you spend the whole game babysitting them, hoping that they will actually do something, and when they go down with 100 damage they are all like "This team sux!"

Assaults ar enot very agile, the fatse mechs should pay attention to them in their team, because they cna not react as fast as you can. staying close means not blockign their path of fire, not blockign them when they go a few steps behind and alos not to run away from them.

It's not that hard to not mess sup with them.

Gyrok, on 27 March 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

I have gotten to the point that when people do this and I have a shot about to rip...I rip it anyway...

Was playing the Gauss + LPL + ERML DW last night, fired Gauss, and a LRM60 awesome walks out in front of my laser alpha and instantly loses RT in the process....starts complaining in chat, of course...

I told him "You ran out in front of my beams man, once they are gone I cannot call them back...pay attention next time..."

If he had been paying attention to the blue wubs and yellow beams to his right side, he probably would not have walked his mech completely in front of my alpha strike...whatever...

the issue is, when you zoom in you can't ssee the sides sometimes. If you don't adjust the FoV and paly vanilla much action on your side is already in a dead angle.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 March 2015 - 06:18 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Assaults are not very agile, the faster mechs should pay attention to them in their team"

I'm a light scout, and in the phase of learning how to hang with them (with my ecm) after finding the enemy line. Its a difficult role- stay out of their way but still put rounds downrange, so I'm more than just a walking ecm module.

But I'm actually piloting assaults now, solely to learn what they have to deal with. Same way I ran LRM boats to learn what they need from spotters. I knew assaults were slow and not responsive before but daaaamn. Given me a new appreciation of why they need my light stay out of their way.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 27 March 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Apnu]

Lynx7725, on 26 March 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Actually no. Walk beside them and support them with fire from a different direction. Give each other room to work and work to flank the enemy so that they have to expose a vulnerable side to a friendly. Teamwork is OP!

I try to, I really do, but I found that the enemy likes a quick kill. So I've seen them ignore the big 50-60 pt alpha assault in favor of a 30-40 alpha medium they think they can put down fast (and half the time, they aren't wrong). I like to tail the assault, let them deliver the shock of a push, then break right or left beside them, or if terrain and the brawl allows, a few extra seconds to flank the assault's target and start blowing arms off. Sometimes I get the kill, sometimes I open the enemy up for the assault to get the kill.

The main key, when PUG'ing, is to concentrate fire on whatever doomed soul the assault has chosen to heap abuse on. When on a team, you kill whatever the drop leader tells you to kill. No questions or complaints.

[Chuck Jager]

When I pilot assaults I really watch out for being left behind, because it can happen easily. What is really freaky is in pug matches when I am the one of the first to get to any part of the map with a long string of schoolkids trailing behind me.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Fenrisulvyn, on 27 March 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

"Assaults are not very agile, the faster mechs should pay attention to them in their team"

I'm a light scout, and in the phase of learning how to hang with them (with my ecm) after finding the enemy line. Its a difficult role- stay out of their way but still put rounds downrange, so I'm more than just a walking ecm module.

But I'm actually piloting assaults now, solely to learn what they have to deal with. Same way I ran LRM boats to learn what they need from spotters. I knew assaults were slow and not responsive before but daaaamn. Given me a new appreciation of why they need my light stay out of their way.

When I'm driving my AS7 or Direwhale, you are the sort of pilot I absolutely want supporting me. Playing in a light (I have done it *shudders*) is much more akin to playing an FPS whereas playing in an assault is more akin to a game of chess in which you have to anticipate movements - the enemy and your own team - ahead of them happening. The Atlas and Direwhale in particular are usually too slow to allow for disengaging so when you're committed that's it, either you win or die so situational awareness is absolutely crucial.