59 replies to this topic

[Homeless Bill]

White Panther, on 28 March 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

It would be really interesting to sit down and talk to the derp who made the trial mechs

To be fair, I don't think all the Champions are bad. Even the ones I listed aren't "bad" - just not newbie-friendly. But there are a couple questionable choices like the Raven that skipped leg day or the CASE + XL Kintaro. Champions are decent builds for the most part, but they could be better, and it would require very little effort on PGI's part.

Shredhead, on 28 March 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

I'd still say trial mechs should be locked out from CW. It's the supposed end content, so why not let the people A work for it and B gather some experience in the more newb friendly Elo dependent environment?

I have nothing against new players, but CW is the worst environment you can throw them in.

I disagree. The more people that want into Community Warfare, the better. I'd argue it's almost a better environment to throw them in because it gives you respawns and lets the battle ebb and flow. Sure there are more steamrolls and I wouldn't encourage new players to jump right in, but everyone should have access without needing to buy four whole 'mechs.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 29 March 2015 - 01:24 AM.

[Malleus011]

If the game is going to succeed someplace like Steam, it needs a good new player experience.

IMHO, they should build a CW mode with fast launches and no 'mechs above mediums allowed, with a couple of prebuilt, newbie-friendly drop decks available for free to new players. This should probably replace the 'deathmatch' modes we have now eventually, along with a couple other CW mission types.

It's not reasonable to expect players to buy, loadout and master a dozen chassis before playing MWO's premiere game mode. Give them a way to participate or they'll go someplace else.

[Johnny Z]

The Champion mechs are excellent for what they are being used for as trials. They are not there as some free, 0 time into the game way to do well in all game modes.

Trial mechs are there for new players to try out the different weight classes and different weapons, the heat system, piloting, IS vrs Clan, etc.

After the new player experience is in, who knows? Everything may change, from the need for trial mechs at all to anything really.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Homeless Bill, on 28 March 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

So, it's been a while since I've played much Community Warfare, but it's all coming back to me now. There are two huge problems I see - one pertaining to everyone and the other pertaining to those that need the most help: newbies and people trying to break into Community Warfare.

Queue Times

Even with as many people as there were playing this event, the wait times can be pretty bad. We were waiting nearly 30 minutes towards the end of last night, and without the additional event population, I expect it's that bad far earlier on.

The simple solution is an I-don't-give-a-**** queue. I don't want to pick a planet to fight on and look at the queue information and do all that micromanagement. I don't even give a damn what faction I'm fighting. Just let me queue for any available Community Warfare match.

It won't dramatically cut down on wait times, but I'll bet it flushes small groups and solo players through the system a lot faster than right now.

Here is a possible solution, and I think it may just reduce wait times too.......

http://mwomercs.com/...r-corps-and-cw/

If you like it leave a comment / suggestion.

[Xetelian]

The rantings of a crazy man. Trial mechs are awesome, I've seen so many trial novas go pop I began to worry about my elo...

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I agree about the trial mechs. I would like a system where I could build a mech and then mark it as a trial mech. Then let mechs I've marked as trial be lent out to players.

[Deathlike]

Bill, I had two thoughts..

1) I had suggested in one of my threads about the trials... that PGI would have to create a "Clan Champion" equivalent.

The mech would use the stock mech's omnipods (the variant must have GOOD stock omnipods for this, or this would fail miserably - every mech has one fortunately) and the stock omnipods would be required to obtain the max C-bill bonus for it. Note that this IS a C-bill bonus, but not as hefty as the Clan Invasion bonus (say, 15 to 20% instead of 30%).

The build would be built like a Champion mech technically... so that's the good part.


2) The other part to this is simply CHANGING the value of ALL the Champion mechs to give out a C-bill bonus instead of a XP bonus. XP will be converted just fine with MC or Premium Time... and at a certain point, people will have more excess GXP than C-bills. If you're not a spendy kind of person, it would actually give Champion mechs ACTUAL VALUE (I wouldn't bother getting Champions because the bonus is completely useless to me - if changed, I would actually consider it more).

But hey, we can't have nice things man. Good luck with your mission.

[627]

those chaampions aren't only bad, they are outright evil and really troll new players.

I don't care who build the trials but in the end those builds should follow some guidelines;

No energy only builds (because heat, or if realy necessary only with decent cooling)

not more than 3 weapon groups, 2 is better. complexity is good and all, but not when you need to learn the basics

Not more than 1 "complex" weapon - that are streaks, LRM, narc, gauss and PPC, everything with an etra mechanic like minrange or charge

Every trial should get a video walkthrough how to play that mech. Every single one. Gave NGNG something to do.




These are just some points, this could be fleshed out more but for a start it is enough. The champ dragon was a good build back then, simple to use, two button mech. No special skills needed to run it.
now the stalker, a pure death trap, those really need to go.

Edited by 627, 29 March 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[STEF_]

Stoned Prophet, on 28 March 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

OOOOOOR dont come into CW using Trials, because if you dont have at LEAST 3 mechs mastered, you have NO business being in cw. Wanna just screw around and have fun? Public Que. CW is for people who want to work hard and WIN! Not the delittantes.

I don't think this is a good way to increase cw population.... and, beside this cw event weekend, it's quite difficult to have a drop with decent waiting time.

[Homeless Bill]

Dirk Le Daring, on 28 March 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

Here is a possible solution, and I think it may just reduce wait times too.......

http://mwomercs.com/...r-corps-and-cw/

If you like it leave a comment / suggestion.

It's not a bad way to do it, but it does require more actual work on their end in terms of setting up a new kind of player, an adjusted set of conditions for earning a whole new set of Reputation Points, and translating those between factions. Additionally, I want to make sure the drop-wherever option is available to all - not just Lone Wolves.

I don't hate it, but I think it's needlessly complicated when there really just needs to be a button on the Faction tab that says, "Queue for Quickest Match" or "Reinforce Planet in Need." If they want to get fancy, they should add filters to allow you to fight for your faction only and to choose if you're fighting Clan or IS.

[Elizander]

We need C2 versions of existing trials or new ones. I took the Banshee out for a spin because I knew I could manage the heat and I was thinking I could use the arms to shield then I saw the arm armor was stripped down to almost nothing.

[Scyther]

627 said:
"those chaampions aren't only bad, they are outright evil and really troll new players.

I don't care who build the trials but in the end those builds should follow some guidelines;

No energy only builds (because heat, or if realy necessary only with decent cooling)

not more than 3 weapon groups, 2 is better. complexity is good and all, but not when you need to learn the basics

Not more than 1 "complex" weapon - that are streaks, LRM, narc, gauss and PPC, everything with an etra mechanic like minrange or charge

Every trial should get a video walkthrough how to play that mech. Every single one. Gave NGNG something to do.


These are just some points, this could be fleshed out more but for a start it is enough. The champ dragon was a good build back then, simple to use, two button mech. No special skills needed to run it.
now the stalker, a pure death trap, those really need to go."

(Sorry for the DIY quoting, quote doesn't work for me here... lots of things in this forum editor don't work for me)

Agree with 627, also with the person who pointed out that current Trial mechs are there to learn disparate systems, weapons etc.

I disagree with the 'PGI are too noob to build good mechs, let us build them' position. Pretty sure PGI could build quite good mechs, just that they are designing them with a different purpose in mind: some resemblance to canon/BT builds (which had similar problems) and exposure to various 'game issues' - XL pros/cons, weapons covering a variety of ranges, more than 2 firing groups, different aiming mechanics etc.

I agree with most here that new players are simply not ready to deal with those issues in their 'learning' mechs. Heck, I took a look at the current batch of trials, and as a long-time player (not necessarily a good player) the only one I thought I could have a decent match in was the 6-LPL Battlemaster.

While they might keep the current crop of trials, or tweak those, there needs to be AT LEAST 4 trial mechs (1 per weight class) with the following criteria:

- near-full (80%+) armor, no crucial weak spots like light legs.
- 2 weapon groups (with some potential for a 3rd but it shouldn't be required)
- Not crippled by speed or heat issues
- Only one 'fancy' mechanic to cope with per mech (jamming, PPC min range/lead time, Gauss charge, SSRM lock, whatever)

While PGI may feel "don't make the Trials too good or people will just use those", I think the desire to get out in your 'own' mech, customize and tweak it would keep people from using even 'newbie friendly' trials any more than they had to.

While I personally feel that CW is not a good place for new players OR trial mechs (my choice would be drop with owned mechs or not at all), having friendly trial mechs would certainly help there. 'Course, then you need 4 per faction...

The 'must have better Trials before Steam' crowd is bang-on... these won't be BT fans willing to overlook poor design choices for their fave game. If needed, these mechs could only be available for your first 100 matches or something.

A decent 'new player experience' is about being user-friendly, interesting and challenging. Not placing new players at even more of a disadvantage against their more experienced counterparts.

Edited by MadBadger, 29 March 2015 - 05:05 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Homeless Bill, on 28 March 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Could you give players a worse 'mech for Community Warfare than a stock Gargoyle?

If you think the Gargoyle is bad, you should try the MLX-PRIME Potato. That "Thing" is borderline.



That said, i was about getting a TBolt for a twink-Account (perma aliment for clans on my main) just to pilot IS mech once in a while. Took a look at the current Trails and forfeit.

The raven has half of it's leg armor removed, at least ecm, but low armor + close range setup?

Treb is a deadtrap, ppc + streak, lol.

same for the tbolt but at least a STD engine.

quiklegged. well maybe.

the banshee is a speedcooker with xl. I bet it kills the pilot more often then anything else.

victor.. xl.. newb death trap. really really needs skill an tactics to pilot this.

and the Spider is still a spider 5k (still the best trail)

The stalker was actually pretty decent. at least is has a clear purpose. you're slow, you've missiles and a TAG, you have a lot Backup Medium lasers. so stay behind and help your team with whatever they're trying to kill upfront.


But wait! there's more!

clans? PGI really must hate the clans.

MLX PRIME.. bahahaha dat arms.. dat speed... dat loadout.. dat armor... even trollmandos laughing at it.

Ferret is halfway decent with it's er-ppc.. streak srm 2 is balls, so is the small laser.

Hellbringer is missing a freaking lot of armor (-22 on front CT on a hellbringer, facepalm)

Mad Dog is way to hot, also 2 x LRM 20.. with.. 2 freaking tons of ammo.. the actual f*...

Gargoyle is decent.. until you're out of ammo.. which is in about 1 minute after matchstart, then you'll have to go into close combat (yes even closer) and pew pew pew the f* out of the single small laser.

only the crow and the dire are useable, then again, a dire with that much weapongroups and still without basics.. newb trap..



nope.nope.nope.

Edited by LOADED, 29 March 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[Insects]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 28 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

As for Trials, yes please. For starters, I suggest that PGI look through their data to find common builds that have decent performance metrics. Boil them down to common denominators (things like armor balance, ammo v heat sinks v extra secondary guns, etc., will all vary from user to user), and then tailor them to be a bit more rookie-friendly.

Dont need to be so complicated.
Simply go to mechspecs and copy the ones with 5 stars, simple.

[Deck of Many Things]

StaggerCheck, on 28 March 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

I'd like to see every battle we take part in contribute to our faction standing... PuG or Community Warfare matches. Skew the numbers so that it is ideal to play CW matches, but at least give everyone a sniff at what the rewards are like. Incentivise it so that players are more welcome into the CW fold, because it could be that some players look at CW and think, "That's for twelve man groups only."

Having just come off a PUG stomp in CW where a premade ate the PUGs for breakfast and made snide comments on top of it, I'm definitely going to endorse this statement by saying that I don't care what gimmick challenge they have, CW right now is unplayable if you are looking for anything besides masochistic frustration.

Edited by Erich Hagen, 29 March 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

MadBadger, on 29 March 2015 - 05:01 AM, said:

While I personally feel that CW is not a good place for new players OR trial mechs (my choice would be drop with owned mechs or not at all), having friendly trial mechs would certainly help there. 'Course, then you need 4 per faction...

The 'must have better Trials before Steam' crowd is bang-on... these won't be BT fans willing to overlook poor design choices for their fave game. If needed, these mechs could only be available for your first 100 matches or something.

A decent 'new player experience' is about being user-friendly, interesting and challenging. Not placing new players at even more of a disadvantage against their more experienced counterparts.

For the new-player experience to improve we first need an expansive tutorial mode that uses CW-style drops to teach a player about different 'Mechs and weapons.

The first is something straightforward, like a Hunchback 4P. Loads of lasers and no ammo dependancy. The tutorial then quides the player through basic movement, firing weapons and entually overheating. The it asks the player to engage self distruct to change the 'Mech to teach them that mechanic for CW matches later.

The second 'Mech could be a Catapult. LRMs and some Lasers. Now the player can practice with the lock-on mechanic, gets taught about the effects of AMS and manouvering with Jump Jets.

The third will be an Atlas to demonstate that some 'Mech will feel a lot slower and less nimble, possibly armed with a Gauss rifle, PPC, ER PPC and SRMs. This will demonstare the charge-mechanic, minimum-range PPC (contrasted with the ERPPC) and dumb-fire SRMs to contrast the LRMs we shot previously.

The Last 'Mech should be a streak Light, to give the players the opposite extreme of speed and agility, demonstrate the lock-on requirement of the Streaks and have them face an ECM shielded target to demonstrate the effects of that piece of equipment. This Light would also be equipped with a UAV and Artillery Strike consumable, the UAV will be used to circumvent the ECM while we end the tutorial by dropping a strike on a remote target.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 29 March 2015 - 05:44 AM.

[oldradagast]

Bush Hopper, on 28 March 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

I am sorry, I do not want to step on anyone's toes but the complaining about queue times is baffling. You want "pro" matches premade vs premade and tell the puggers to stay out. In other words: the minority of a niche game wants to play among itself. I totally respect that. However, you get what you wish - with all consequences. Oh, and for the record: putting pugs and premades into the same pool hasn't worked well in any game as far as I know
And sure, signing up for one planet or whatever would help...but then the tactical part of the map gets negated and it is already one step closer to regular pug matches. Just saying.

This.

The "elite" try-hards yell and scream about PUG's sullying their sacred CW, but if you take the PUG's out, you're left with absurd wait times, which they then cry about. And if you suggest some sort of match-making system that would let everyone play, but at an appropriate skill level, they cry about that as well, since seal-clubbing PUG's as part of a team is supposedly a key aspect to the "high skill" required to play CW.

It should be no surprise at this point why only 10% or so of the MWO population even bothers with CW anymore... with nonsensical demands and self-serving reasoning like what I just listed, you just can't win.

As for the OP, I will say that many of the Trial mechs are complete jokes. Stalkers with XL engines? Come on... Simple rule: no Trial mech should trigger ghost heat. If you can't build a decent starter mech following even just that one parameter, than the overall system (ghost heat in particular) is a problem.

Edited by oldradagast, 29 March 2015 - 05:46 AM.

[Burktross]

I could deal with the queue times...
You know.
If CW was fun.

As it stands, its "who's better at rushing bottlenecks" and "ok which lance is the cannon fodder"

[oldradagast]

Erich Hagen, on 29 March 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Having just come off a PUG stomp in CW where a premade ate the PUGs for breakfast and made snide comments on top of it, I'm definitely going to endorse this statement by saying that I don't care what gimmick challenge they have, CW right now is unplayable if you are looking for anything besides masochistic frustration.

Keep in mind you're supposed to enjoy the rolls and sarcastic comments, and then "get good, noob!" and join one of those teams with an attitude. That way, you can be the one rolling noobs and PUG's in easy matches while insulting them. That's the fun of CW, and the "skill," or so I've been told... Well, that and ghost drops, spawn camping, and any other tactic that avoids actual combat between comparably skilled opponents where the outcome might be uncertain, some real effort may be required, and the game could actually fun.

Edited by oldradagast, 29 March 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[Burktross]

oldradagast, on 29 March 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Keep in mind you're supposed to enjoy the rolls and sarcastic comments, and then "get good, noob!" and join one of those teams with an attitude. That way, you can be the one rolling noobs and PUG's in easy matches while insulting them. That's the fun of CW, and the "skill," or so I've been told... Well, that and ghost drops, spawn camping, and any other tactic that avoids actual combat between comparably skilled opponents where the outcome might be uncertain, some real effort may be required, and the game could actually fun.

Don't worry, we still have Mekwars and MekHQ.