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Mech Diversity


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#1 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:29 PM

If I had a genie who only granted wishes pertaining to MWO gameplay and mech diversity (it's a VERY specific genie) I would ask for:

1) 20% greater C-Bill rewards
2) The return of repair and re-arm and
3) A deep discount on repair and re-arm on mechs that are tied to the faction you're fighting for. It'd be nice to see that faction bit actually matter when it comes to what mechs you're taking...or see people play at a monetary disadvantage if they want to take something else.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 30 March 2015 - 12:30 PM.


#2 FupDup

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:31 PM

RnR would basically mean that space poors have to use SHS stock Swaybacks while veteran Mech Romneys use decked-out golden Mad Cats and devour them effortlessly.

It would also encourage passive/cowardly play because you'd be further penalized for every point of damage you take (well, more penalty than just the fact that your health pool went down).

And it's a nerf to ammo-based weapons, when our current metagame is massively focused on energy weapons as it is...

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2015 - 12:41 PM.


#3 Virgil Greyson

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:35 PM

Not sure how they would track this, but maybe the match-maker awards bonus c-bills to people using less played mechs?

#4 dubplate

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:54 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:


And it's a nerf to ammo-based weapons, when our current metagame is massively focused on energy weapons as it is...


As much as I like the idea of RnR this is what happened when it was on. You get less missiles and ballistics and most people go energy. This just makes everything worse for new players who get destroyed each match, making it harder for them to gain while the veterans sit on big piles of cbills that they don't really need any more.

#5 zagibu

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:59 PM

View PostVirgil Greyson, on 30 March 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Not sure how they would track this, but maybe the match-maker awards bonus c-bills to people using less played mechs?

They have the stats. I posted a similar idea some time ago, where c-bill earning is scaled by inverse popularity of the mech. So if you drive meta cheese, you make less c-bills than if you perform the same in a less played mech.

#6 stjobe

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:08 PM

I'd ask that genie for a proper heat penalty system, so that energy weapons could be somewhat balanced against ammo-based weapons under that R&R system you'll be asking for.

Sure, you can go energy-heavy and save some CB. But you're going to have to be real careful about your heat, whereas the guy that plunks down for some ammo doesn't have to worry so much.

And then I'd go right ahead and ask for a proper heat system in the first place, along with a re-scaling of weapons/damage/heat to TT levels (fire three times as fast as TT? Sure, but you're going to be doing 1/3rd of the damage per shot), and if that works I'd ask for a removal of our doubled armour.

For an encore, I'd ask for our CW allegiance to actually matter in match payouts to further balance that R&R system of yours. A House/Clan member doesn't pay as much R&R, but also gets less match rewards. A Lone Wolf, on the other side of the scale, pays full R&R, but also gets a bonus to the match rewards. Merc corps are the middle ground.

Then I'd ask for the impossible - proper burst-fire ACs, viable MGs, continuous-fire lasers, and fire-and-forget missiles. Oh, and proper TrueDub™ DHS across the board.

But at that point I think the genie has decided to give up. Even a genie can only do so much ;)

#7 KodiakGW

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:43 PM

Mech diversity will come when everyone does not need to take meta builds that will work on any map. Until we can see the map we will be playing on before hand, you will continue to see the same handful of mechs. Mostly laser vomit builds, now in both IS and Clan flavors (love that yummy blue). People would be more likely to take brawler builds if they knew they would get a good infighting map.

#8 C E Dwyer

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:54 PM

There goes the new player experience up in smoke again.

One of the biggest, critisisms raised against MWO is how grindy it is ( I would dispute this )

Also how difficult is is for a genuinely new player to get a grip on the game.

Even with a 20% boost it makes the game that much more grindy, and harder for new starts.

While nationalising mechs might be fun for big houses like Lyran Comon Wealth, Federated Suns, and Draconis Combine, the other Is houses would be restricted on what mechs or construction to make them viable, without extra costs,

the Cataphract being the standard heavy and the vindicator bing the standard medium for house Lio as examples

#9 Lily from animove

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:55 PM

how about making the x2 bonus not only for xp also for credits, people then may use all the mechs they have for grinding money. or at leats a few.

#10 Xetelian

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:57 PM

Repair Re-Arm comes back and I'll leave. I think it is the single dumbest feature imagined.

#11 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:00 PM

View PostGhost Badger, on 30 March 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

If I had a genie who only granted wishes pertaining to MWO gameplay and mech diversity (it's a VERY specific genie) I would ask for:

1) 20% greater C-Bill rewards
2) The return of repair and re-arm and
3) A deep discount on repair and re-arm on mechs that are tied to the faction you're fighting for. It'd be nice to see that faction bit actually matter when it comes to what mechs you're taking...or see people play at a monetary disadvantage if they want to take something else.

Mech diversity requires:

1) Basic Weapon Balance
2) Light Quirks to fill in the gaps.

Instead we get unbalanced weapons, and quirks designed to "create a meta" for each chassis.

Meh.

#12 Quxudica

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:01 PM

View PostGhost Badger, on 30 March 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

If I had a genie who only granted wishes pertaining to MWO gameplay and mech diversity (it's a VERY specific genie) I would ask for:

1) 20% greater C-Bill rewards
2) The return of repair and re-arm and
3) A deep discount on repair and re-arm on mechs that are tied to the faction you're fighting for. It'd be nice to see that faction bit actually matter when it comes to what mechs you're taking...or see people play at a monetary disadvantage if they want to take something else.


RnR is never going to be anything but a bad idea. Either it's expensive enough to matter and will therefore cause a return to suicide grinding, launching into matches without repairing, and exploiting whatever free % of rearm ammo is granted by carrying x tons more than you actually want. Or it will be so cheap that it will do absolutely nothing except add yet another layer of grind ontop of a game that already has far to much of it.

RnR just does not work for MWO. Also nothing should be balanced by cbill cost, balance should be derived from functionality inside the matches themselves. Mech A being 50% better than Mech B is not balanced by Mech A costing Y% more bills as that makes no difference once the game starts. An XL Engine is not balanced because it's more expensive, it's balanced because it makes your mech easier to kill and consumes more critical space.



View PostBishop Steiner, on 30 March 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Mech diversity requires:

1) Basic Weapon Balance
2) Light Quirks to fill in the gaps.

Instead we get unbalanced weapons, and quirks designed to "create a meta" for each chassis.

Meh.


A few things would radically increase diversity in matches I think. First a complete redesign of the Heat system, make it cap out sooner but increase more gradually and cause performance problems if you stay to hot for to long. Second, break convergence so that not every single hardpoint on every mech hits the same spots. The end result would be lower alphas and higher sustained damage, which would increase the viability of mechs with non-optimal hit boxes. Part of the reason some mediums are simply worse than say a Storm Crow or Shadowhawk is because those mechs have hitboxes that let them survive the insane amounts of pinpoint damage currently flying around.

Next Quirks need to be completely rethought. It was such a massive mistake to make Quirks almost entirely focused on weapons. Not only that but they give quirks to certain chassis based on the "Meta" and not on what that mech was actually supposed to be doing or using. Change up quirks to be less damage centric, give something like the Raven quirks focused on ECM/BAP/TAG effectiveness, give the Hunchback critical hit resistance to anything stored in it's hunch, give the Crab a damage reduction to impacts that hit it vertically, make the Direwolf immune to vertical cockpit damage thanks to the massive canopy. Give some mechs resistance to certain kinds of damage, and make mechs more proficient with the weapons they were designed to carry - not whatever the current meta happens to be.

Lastly, Role Warfare needs to stop being a virtually neglected concept. Mech customization is too high, there aren't enough restrictions on what kinds of weapons or equipment mechs can carry. Damage has become virtually the only concern in the game, every mech is built like an Assault mech focused first and foremost on massive alpha damage. I've said before weapons should have defined physical sizes and some mechs simply shouldn't be able to carry them. A hunchback looks like a hunchback because it's built to carry a cannon it's weight class isn't designed for, a Catapult has massive missile racks because thats how much room an LRM 20 launcher is supposed to require. When you remove size restrictions, you make some mechs completely pointless as people will just take something else with better geometry.

Relatedly, consumables need to be turned into equipment. Air and Artillery Strikes should be part of the Scout/Command Mech roles. Right now every scout loads down their mech with as much firepower as possible, but that's not supposed to be what a scouts for. With every mech in the game being able to pull magic Strike cards out of their arses, or equip BAP or anything with an energy hardpoint or missile hardpoint can bring along a NARC or TAG it diminishes the need for specialization and in turn build diversity suffers.

Edited by Quxudica, 30 March 2015 - 02:22 PM.


#13 Soy

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:05 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

RnR would basically mean that space poors have to use SHS stock Swaybacks while veteran Mech Romneys use decked-out golden Mad Cats and devour them effortlessly.

It would also encourage passive/cowardly play because you'd be further penalized for every point of damage you take (well, more penalty than just the fact that your health pool went down).


What an asinine argument.

You can tweak the grind and cbill return rate on playing/scores.

Seriously - there goes your entire argument, oh noes.

Don't **** on RnR from a position that it'll make the grind worse, while completely ignoring the possibility of tweaking the return rate for rewards, and also completely ignoring the entire reason why it would exist - immersion and risk vs reward... As much as you talk about passive play, a lot of these ******** hitbox crutching Firestarters wouldn't be able to suicide, streak/srm boats wouldn't be so mindless, etc... It makes the game feel more 'connected' game to game instead of little deathmatches, something extra is dynamic in your play session...

A lot of your paulconomy arguments are paper thin, this one in particular. Step your game up.

Edited by Soy, 30 March 2015 - 02:08 PM.


#14 FupDup

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:12 PM

View PostSoy, on 30 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

What an asinine argument.

You can tweak the grind and cbill return rate on playing/scores.

Seriously - there goes your entire argument, oh noes.

Don't **** on RnR from a position that it'll make the grind worse, while completely ignoring the possibility of tweaking the return rate for rewards, and also completely ignoring the entire reason why it would exist - immersion.

A lot of your paulconomy arguments are paper thin, this one in particular.

I think you replied to the wrong post, seeing how my post in this thread didn't mention the grind or the Paulconomy.

You also didn't address my criticisms:

1. Established players get to maintain stronger mechs than people who aren't as pre-established. Also, things like Premium Time making paying players able to field stronger mechs than free players.

2. Encourage cowardly play due to penalizing damage received in a way other than just having reduced health. People hide too much as it is, deducting C-Bills whenever they poke their head out will only make it worse.

3. Exasperate the laser vomit spam meta, because you'd have to pay money to use missiles and ballistics. Meanwhile, lasers would be free (after the initial purchase that is).


EDIT:

View PostSoy, on 30 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

As much as you talk about passive play, a lot of these ******** hitbox crutching Firestarters wouldn't be able to suicide, streak/srm boats wouldn't be so mindless, etc... It makes the game feel more 'connected' game to game instead of little deathmatches, something extra is dynamic in your play session...

Firestarters suiciding is a bad idea because it puts their own team at a disadvantage by removing damage and armor from their team's total pool of resources. It removes a player from their team.

Streak boats need Streaks to be just redesigned from the ground up, primarily so that the missiles form a cluster around the hitbox that you aim at when you fire them (instead of being randomly targeted). Adding a money tax for using them doesn't add "thought" to using them.

Why are you complaining about SRM boats?

There's nothing "dynamic" about another added money sink.


View PostSoy, on 30 March 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

...immersion.



Don't say "muh immersion" because that's what got us cockpit glass...

Edited by FupDup, 30 March 2015 - 02:26 PM.


#15 DaZur

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:15 PM

R&R does not work in the previous iteration due to huge disparity between the haves and have-nots... Basic economics. R&R keeps the rich rich and the poor poor.

THAT SAID... I'd love to see CW extend to 3 to 4 branching missions with R&R as a segue into the next mission...

Sure would add a pucker factor to bringing a balanced build versus meta-vetted crap as well as add much need logistics into the mix IMHO.

Edited by DaZur, 30 March 2015 - 02:16 PM.


#16 Gyrok

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:16 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 March 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Don't say "muh immersion" because that's what got us cockpit glass...


That all but 4 people have disabled in the user.cfg

#17 DaZur

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:17 PM

View PostGyrok, on 30 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:


That all but 4 people have disabled in the user.cfg

5... I actually like the glass. :P

#18 FupDup

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:17 PM

View PostGyrok, on 30 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:


That all but 4 people have disabled in the user.cfg

Of those 4, I think that probably 2 of them simply don't know how to do it. The other 2 might be the rare masochist types that actually like it...

#19 Gyrok

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:18 PM

View PostDaZur, on 30 March 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

5... I actually like the glass. :P


How do you know you are not one of the 4? :P

:ph34r:

#20 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:19 PM

View PostDaZur, on 30 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

R&R does not work in the previous iteration due to huge disparity between the haves and have-nots... Basic economics. R&R keeps the rich rich and the poor poor.

THAT SAID... I'd love to see CW extend to 3 to 4 branching missions with R&R as a segue into the next mission...

Sure would add a pucker factor to bringing a balanced build versus meta-vetted crap as well as add much need logistics into the mix IMHO.

actually, it didn't work due to due exploits like the 75% autorepair that got *gasp* exploited.





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