124 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

RussianWolf, on 31 March 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

You want real change in the CW mode? Stop playing it.

So solos, Stop playing CW. Let the groups have it. Let their queue times increase and their complaints increase and PGI will come to the conclusion that they need queues similar to what we have in the Public queue. Remember, in CW they need the Solos as gap fillers for the teams. So they NEED the Solos, The solos DON'T NEED teams/CW.

Two things:

1) I'm way ahead of you. I've never played CW because I read the details PGI posted about it just before they launched it and I could tell what was going to happen. All my predictions about CW have since come true.

2) If by "they need queues similar to what we have in the Public queue" you mean a solo-only queue for CW, it won't work. The reason the public solo-only queue that exists today works is because premade teams can't reliably sync-drop into it because they'd end up on opposite teams even if they managed to sync-drop as solos into the same match. In CW, the players on one team all belong to the same faction while the opposing team is always from a different faction. That means it's impossible for members of a premade to be on opposite teams when they sync-drop. That means premades CAN reliably sync-drop in a CW solo-only queue.

Edited by Triordinant, 31 March 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[Czarr]

Ohh i already stopped playing, only came back for the free mech. Thanks PGI

And im sure CW is going to be so fun with 5 to 6 competitive teams between the nine different faction and 30 min waits and ghost drops when all the pugs finally do stop dropping (sarcasm)

hey look everyone it's "community skirmish"

[Romeo Deluxe]

Darth Bane001, on 31 March 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Cw can be fun but the maps are really boring you see the same kind of tactics used every time, you see the same mechs used every time, you see way too many noob players which make the experience less enjoyable because they didn't want to work as a team and had no business in cw in the first place using trial mechs and missing nearly every shot using up all 4 mechs within ten minutes or less.

A lot needs to be done to make this mode ultimately worth the time invested in it. The wait time is too long and frankly I feel 30 minutes is too long all you get is a massive standoff with the sudden but expected rush and gotta hope your team is paying attention to not get steam rolled.

I have had a number of great matches that got me more than 700k cbills and 11k xp those are nice but take so damn long could have likely gotten that in regular matchmaking with a couple of super good rounds.

I will forever rail against the bolded part of what you said. Thinking players has no business being in some aspect of the game is bad business. I hope PGI does not follow this mentality. Teamwork can still be learned even in pugs or as a soloist.

Queue length? Well it's a different game mode, it's not too horrible and perhaps it can be improved. The rewards are pretty good though. Have you looked through the Faction Loyalties tab? I think they are pretty good and it would take some time working through all the contracts. I'm going to see how it goes hopping into queues during PST prime times or just on the weekends. Still slum it in the Pubs at other times or weeknights.

There will be improvements over time, that is what I'll be on the lookout for than be concerned about the current state of things. I might play this more than the usual few weeks and year long breaks in-between that I have been doing. Seeing as there is a little more to the game than there has been in the past.

[RussianWolf]

Screech, on 31 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Seems that would be more of a boon to the small group folks then solos. I don't see much of an upside as a solo player in 4x4 and see a tremendous downside. Though I might be on island on this one as I prefer CW to the solo queue in general.

less intensity in the focused fire should at least increase time to kill. That's the one upside.

[RussianWolf]

Darwins Dog, on 31 March 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I will grant you that CW needs improvement, but you have some pretty flawed arguments. You seem to think that PGI is unaware of the problems, but I seem to recall a beta tag on CW. That implies (to me at least) that they know the mode needs more work.

As to your claim that groups only formed for pugstomps: I don't even know where to start there. Where do you get the idea that people group up because they want easy wins? I joined a group because the lack of teamwork in the solo queue was maddening. The game is at it's best (for me) when two teams of roughly equal skill are facing each other. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. That is part of the reason why the max size group queues dried up; there are some really really good teams out there, and it's pretty disheartening to get wrecked by them over and over.

Also, lots of groups formed because playing games is more fun when you are playing with friends. It's an added bonus that teamwork is OP, and groups who are working together tend to win more.

Teams don't want competition? The number of leagues and tournaments going on would suggest otherwise. Lots of groups really do want to face better competition.

Now I know that there are plenty of groups who just want to pugstomp everyone, but in my experience they are the minority.

The problem in CW is not with pugs vs. premades, it's with "solo" players who refuse to work with a team, turn off voip, ignore text chat, and then come to the forums to insult the "leet pro meta tryhards who only want to win". CW is and should be a place to bring your A game and work with your team.

Maybe Solaris (if and when that happens) will give the true lone wolves a place to thrive and shine.

Where do I get this? Many discussions in these very forums. Discussions where people admitted over and over that they fled the 8/12 man queue because they couldn't win against the competitive groups, so went back to the 1-4 to have an easy time of it. And the Competitives admitting that they were back in the 1-4 (usually as groups) because they couldn't get matches in the 8/12 man queue due to lack of people playing it.

Take a look at some of the old posts about pug stomping, sync dropping, the evil premades and you'll find plenty of them.

All of that led to the queue system we have now, which is better. It's not perfect and I doubt it ever will be, but it's far better that the 1st or 2nd generation.

Apnu, on 31 March 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Wasn't that happening before this weekend's event? PGI puts a shiny mech at the end of the rainbow and everybody piles on.

and some of us didn't fall for it.

I want to see change for the better of everyone.

As said, the pop went up for the event and many stopped playing immediately after getting their prize. I'm hoping PGI see the message in that - "to keep the popup, you need major changes"

CyclonerM, on 31 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Mmmh. Sometimes it sounds like the any way to please solo players would be to have a 1vs1 mode..

But Solaris Arena duels are not going to influence owned planets..

Even though it could be an interesting game mode that i think is already in the plans.

While I am a big supporter of Solaris VII mode (for 16mech FFA and 4 lance FFA), you are right.

But what I'm talking about here is if we want change for the better of all (more fun for the solo type players, and less wait times for groups, etc.) then we need to stop playing it so that PGI doesn't just see that the problem exists, but actually moves quicky to ACT on the problem.

[RussianWolf]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 March 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Why would I want a change? CW is meant to put me to the test. It is meant to be where the best TEAM wins. If I cannot accept that then yeah I should stay PUG. I can get hammered in CW and accept it as working as intended cause the better team should always beat the lesser team.

Are you happy with the wait times? Are you happy that the maps are layed out the way they are? (granted I haven't seen the 2 newer maps so my sample size is 50% now. lol)


Something can be hard but enjoyable. That's where it needs to be but right now the Solos (most of them) don't find it very enjoyable. Heck, I don't find it enjoyable when I'm playing within my unit and following all the "best practices" because it really is suited to one play style and half a dozen mechs and builds. I find it boring, win or lose, 90% of the time.

You want a larger pop, then you should want it to be more enjoyable for all. And that means change of some kind.

[RussianWolf]

Triordinant, on 31 March 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Two things:

1) I'm way ahead of you. I've never played CW because I read the details PGI posted about it just before they launched it and I could tell what was going to happen. All my predictions about CW have since come true.

2) If by "they need queues similar to what we have in the Public queue" you mean a solo-only queue for CW, it won't work. The reason the public solo-only queue that exists today works is because premade teams can't reliably sync-drop into it because they'd end up on opposite teams even if they managed to sync-drop as solos into the same match. In CW, the players on one team all belong to the same faction while the opposing team is always from a different faction. That means it's impossible for members of a premade to be on opposite teams when they sync-drop. That means premades CAN reliably sync-drop in a CW solo-only queue.

On 2) you may be right. As said, I don't have all the answers, but we definitely need something to change if you want people to play it.

[RussianWolf]

Aresye, on 31 March 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

- A good single player can carry a bad team against an average solo team.
- A good 4man lance in CW can carry an entire bad team against an average premade team.
- A good solo team can win against a poor premade team.
- A good solo team can create a close fight with an average premade team.
- A good premade team can win against anyone.

There's no secret behind organized groups. Factions exist in the lore, and they exist in game. Units and Clans in online gaming is a normal thing. There's no conspiracy when it comes to large units existing solely to smash solo players, so please stop with the fear mongering and conspiracy theories that make it seem like large premade teams are some anomaly. If anything's an anomaly it's why solo players with no desire to play as part of an organized team would play a mode that was specifically created for organized teams and faction based warfare.

- If a 4v4 mode exists, then 4man comp groups will still win.
- If a solo 4v4 mode exists, then solo players like TwinkieOverlord and Heimdelight will still win.

It's the same thing as the other two years of queue arguments. There's players who are better than you, and they're going to win. About time some of you accept that. It's not like us organized groups don't get stomped by competitive teams on a regular basis, because we do. You don't see us asking for a "non-competitive" queue, do you?

And yet PGI has said from day 1 that it needs Solo players in CW to fill gaps in teams. Or would you like to take a 11 man against a 12 man?

Yes, there are players running around that are elite. I've faced off with Twinky in a 1v1 myself. Got my butt handed to me, but earned his respect. I've also witnessed a lance of Lords dismantle 12 enemy mechs in less than 2 minutes during one of the lance challenges while the rest of us (2 other lances) barely got in position to deal out scratches. It is very hard to go against players that good and should be.

But the game and every mode has to be enjoyable, even in a loss, if you ant people to play. I want people to play.

[RussianWolf]

White Bear 84, on 31 March 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

No surprise that those calling 'don't play it' are group players.. ..let me ask, if you did not like CW or were not finding it enjoyable what would you do??

First guess is to jump straight on the forums and have a QQ about it.. ..like pugs do the same. So its a bit hypocritical for groupies to complain about pugs complaining when they complain just as much themselves...

IMO telling pugs to not play CW is counter productive to the development of CW.. ..now as far as regular matches are concerned we have solo, group and uber group queues. As far as CW is concerned we just have a blob of people wanting to drop. There is no reason that the q system cannot be designed so that solo's can drop solo, groups can drop group and solo's can fill in groups where they want to.

Worried about how pug matches may be more random than grouped drops? Add a tier to the type of match so for example, one pug match might equal a third of a 12 man drop, but half of a normal group drop.. ..something like that.

Seems more constructive to push for a more integrated system for the drops than to push more players away from CW don't you think? After all the biggest issue for CW particularly in EU/OCEANIC TZ is numbers!

And on a side note;





PGI take note ^^

Well, I am in a unit and don't find CW enjoyable either as a solo drop (which I still do) or as part of my unit (could be any size up to and including 12). I find it boring because its stagnant. Same mechs, same builds, same tactics generally.

You will find me in either the solo queue as I was in Monday night, or in the group queue with some of my unit usually.

I want to see change for the better of all in CW so that I won't find it boring and will want to play. The only way I see that happening quickly is for it to become unpleasant for all so that PGI takes action.

[RussianWolf]

Davers, on 31 March 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

I think the upcoming 4v4 mode will really help solo players who want to play CW.

I will give it a try to see if it at least adds some variety to the mode. I'm just sick of seeing the same 6 mechs and same builds every match.

[HARDKOR]

Aresye, on 31 March 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

- A good single player can carry a bad team against an average solo team.
- A good 4man lance in CW can carry an entire bad team against an average premade team.
- A good solo team can win against a poor premade team.
- A good solo team can create a close fight with an average premade team.
- A good premade team can win against anyone.

There's no secret behind organized groups. Factions exist in the lore, and they exist in game. Units and Clans in online gaming is a normal thing. There's no conspiracy when it comes to large units existing solely to smash solo players, so please stop with the fear mongering and conspiracy theories that make it seem like large premade teams are some anomaly. If anything's an anomaly it's why solo players with no desire to play as part of an organized team would play a mode that was specifically created for organized teams and faction based warfare.

- If a 4v4 mode exists, then 4man comp groups will still win.
- If a solo 4v4 mode exists, then solo players like TwinkieOverlord and Heimdelight will still win.

It's the same thing as the other two years of queue arguments. There's players who are better than you, and they're going to win. About time some of you accept that. It's not like us organized groups don't get stomped by competitive teams on a regular basis, because we do. You don't see us asking for a "non-competitive" queue, do you?

The biggest problem this game faces is the ratio of good to bad players. There are WAY too many bad players because there is no end game content and people quit out of boredom once they get to the top. The reward for becoming skilled is that you no longer lose, but you also no longer have good games and you have to take abuse from the underhive for actually trying. Any game where group hatred and the term "try hard" is prevalent is infected with the same sort of illness that has caused the USA to become a cesspool of anti-intellectualism. When you have people proudly exclaiming that they are never going to get on a team or that they don't run the meta, it's a toxic environment.

Pugs are supposed to be filler, not the overwhelming majority. Too many pugs is whats ruining CW. Too many casuals lowers the gameplay to the point where the kind of person who isn't willing to put any effort into their skillset, teamwork, and tools gets to complain about the people who have, instead of being forced to realize that their willful incompetence is the actual problem.

I think there are two things that could be changed to cause better gameplay.

1. Force matchmaker to start any team it builds with a group of at least four people. If you want a lore reason... those guys brought the dropship that everyone else piled onto.

2. Give rewards to units for defending planets with their tags on them. A 50% bonus for defending a planet that you have tags on would be effective and give people a real reason to want to own planets. Currently all the good units are doing planetary 95% attacks only, so they rarely encounter eachother. Giving a reason to defend would cause the units to be in conflict more often.

[Dolph Hoskins]

HARDKOR, on 01 April 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

The biggest problem this game faces is the ratio of good to bad players. There are WAY too many bad players because there is no end game content and people quit out of boredom once they get to the top. The reward for becoming skilled is that you no longer lose, but you also no longer have good games and you have to take abuse from the underhive for actually trying. Any game where group hatred and the term "try hard" is prevalent is infected with the same sort of illness that has caused the USA to become a cesspool of anti-intellectualism. When you have people proudly exclaiming that they are never going to get on a team or that they don't run the meta, it's a toxic environment.

Pugs are supposed to be filler, not the overwhelming majority. Too many pugs is whats ruining CW. Too many casuals lowers the gameplay to the point where the kind of person who isn't willing to put any effort into their skillset, teamwork, and tools gets to complain about the people who have, instead of being forced to realize that their willful incompetence is the actual problem.

I think there are two things that could be changed to cause better gameplay.

1. Force matchmaker to start any team it builds with a group of at least four people. If you want a lore reason... those guys brought the dropship that everyone else piled onto.

2. Give rewards to units for defending planets with their tags on them. A 50% bonus for defending a planet that you have tags on would be effective and give people a real reason to want to own planets. Currently all the good units are doing planetary 95% attacks only, so they rarely encounter eachother. Giving a reason to defend would cause the units to be in conflict more often.

Holy ****** ****...are you always so awesome???

From the all caps name to some how relating your over zealous gaming to some sort of off handed political babble about USA something or other?

As an observer most of the time all I notice from your posts is total PC gaming elitist babble, and putting down anonymous general groups of people for reasons that I can only figure are sad and pathetic. I could be wrong, maybe your just a ***** with a keyboard.

[Anjian]

I personally don't see the point of a 4 v 4 mode. This is war, and I like to see plenty of combatants the more the better, meshing it up in a massive death grinder. Ah the smell of many many burning mechs in the morning!

[HARDKOR]

The Ripper13, on 01 April 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

As an observer most of the time all I notice from your posts is total PC gaming elitist babble, and putting down anonymous general groups of people for reasons that I can only figure are sad and pathetic. I could be wrong, maybe your just a ***** with a keyboard.

This is for you, good sir.



PS - if you are from the console generation, I understand where you are coming from. Now, please go back to the living room and fire up mechassault.

Edited by HARDKOR, 01 April 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Dolph Hoskins]

HARDKOR, on 01 April 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

This is for you, good sir.



PS - if you are from the console generation, I understand where you are coming from. Now, please go back to the living room and fire up mechassault.

April fools!

I'm sure you're a fine, upstanding individual and a renaissance man at heart.

Happy mech shooting n stuff, get bent mkay.

[HARDKOR]

I haven't had any weed or coffee yet today, so I can't think of anything to say regarding balancing a game for the low end of mediocrity, but this picture just feels right.

[Mystere]

RussianWolf, on 01 April 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

less intensity in the focused fire should at least increase time to kill. That's the one upside.

As I mentioned in another thread, 4x4 will be good if and only if people don't start flooding the forums with gut-wrenching complaints that hotshot players (especially those dropping as a 2/3/4-man unit) are ruining it for them by always killing them in 5 minutes or less and start demanding that the latter be kept out of their 4x4 queues.

But I am not holding my breath.

[Xyroc]

No worries OP I stopped playing CW months ago!

[HARDKOR]

Mystere, on 01 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

As I mentioned in another thread, 4x4 will be good if and only if people don't start flooding the forums with gut-wrenching complaints that hotshot players (especially those dropping as a 2/3/4-man unit) are ruining it for them by always killing them in 5 minutes or less and start demanding that the latter be kept out of their 4x4 queues.

But I am not holding my breath.

I hope it has some sort of matchmaker or ladder, or it's just going to be more of the same 1/10 ratio for good game vs stomp. 4 vs 4 will reduce the effects of teamwork but it won't fix the rest of the factors that make this game so top heavy.

This game has truly failed at end game content. In most games, when you start getting better, you move up a ladder and you fight better players, and your tactics evolve to fight those better players. In MWO, as you get better, it becomes simpler and simpler and in the end, most of your in game improvements come in leveling up your ability to farm people out quickly, not in your ability to defeat high skilled players. This blows my mind, as I have never played something so expensive. I would have thought that the high cost of this game would make it a more hardcore experience, but instead, it seems to be 90% casuals, as if it was some sort of console garbage or a browser based game people play at work.

I wonder if star citizen will be like that, too. Spend a bunch of money to get into it, get a good posse together, figure out the game mechanics, then spend the majority of the time bored.

[Mystere]

RussianWolf, on 01 April 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Are you happy with the wait times? Are you happy that the maps are layed out the way they are? (granted I haven't seen the 2 newer maps so my sample size is 50% now. lol)


Something can be hard but enjoyable. That's where it needs to be but right now the Solos (most of them) don't find it very enjoyable. Heck, I don't find it enjoyable when I'm playing within my unit and following all the "best practices" because it really is suited to one play style and half a dozen mechs and builds. I find it boring, win or lose, 90% of the time.

You want a larger pop, then you should want it to be more enjoyable for all. And that means change of some kind.

Then play for "fun" and not for "best practices". In the end, that is the point, right?