84 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Fuggles, on 01 April 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

well yeah it was slowed down to desync them with ballistics wich is fine, it was a good change because everyone ran 1-2 ppcs at the time.

clans just need the same treatment IS got to help balance weapons out. the erppc cant be the best weapon on every mech because everyone will use them, but if mechs like the adder and warhawk use them with quirks, well thats the way the system was intended.

Exactly, on the Warhawk and Adder, and id almost venture to include the Summoner in it, give those mechs a higher PPD CERPPC, let the other mechs have a slightly faster velocity CERPPC, like 1150 velocity base.

But WHK, ADR, SMR get a like 13/15 CERPPC, 4s CD, 1150 velocity, quirked to 1300ms(15%).

[Averen]

I think you're missing the real issue. For the IS, PPCs are fantastic weapons when used correctly.

Clans don't have PPCs, tho. They only have ERPPCs, which are dedicated sniper weaponry. It's an ultra-rare sight on IS-mechs, the only common user was the Thunderbolt which also got heavily nerfed.
Otherwise ERPPCs are even worse on IS mechs because of their DHS.

Edited by Averen, 01 April 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[dubplate]

With people wanting changes to CERPPC, currently it has the same stats as the IS one except splash damage, crit slots and tonnage (if I'm reading Smurfy right). Why should there be a buff to the clan but not the IS one? I'm probably missing something in the build differences but outside of quirked IS mechs that version seems lacking too. I actually haven't paid attention if IS are using the ER or regular version these days. If they want to limit the use of the ERPPC quirks seems to be the way to do it, but the clan side needs some help in that area.

I'm hoping to see some adjustments to the current quirks for clans since the few percentage points seem laughable in comparison and crossing my fingers the Nova gets some attention since I have been enjoying mediums lately. On the nova I think the arms could use an armor bonus and even some twisting bonus' to make it a bit more nimble, maybe some beam duration help too.

[FupDup]

Averen, on 01 April 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

I think you're missing the real issue. For the IS, PPCs are fantastic weapons when used correctly.

Clans don't have PPCs, tho. They only have ERPPCs, which are dedicated sniper weaponry. It's an ultra-rare sight on IS-mechs, the only common user was the Thunderbolt which also got heavily nerfed.
Otherwise ERPPCs are even worse on IS mechs because of their DHS.

The problem is that ERPPCs (and normal PPCs) aren't actually a sniper weapon, because their slow projectile makes them easy to dodge even before you reach their optimal range of 810m...

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The problem is that ERPPCs (and normal PPCs) aren't actually a sniper weapon, because their slow projectile makes them easy to dodge even before you reach their optimal range of 810m...

Would it make sense at this point to have the IS ERPPC be faster in terms of velocity than the Clan ERPPC, given that the Clan ERPPC does additional damage?

I mean... the IS PPC is generally better than the Clan ERPPC when it comes to heat, but that's it... and the PPC being slower than the Clan ERPPC is fine.. but adjusting those numbers in that order would be the only way to differentiate the PPCs.

To visualize, I'd like the velocity of the PPCs go in this order (from slowest to fastest):
PPC
Clan ERPPC
IS ERPPC

Edited by Deathlike, 01 April 2015 - 06:08 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

There are mechs with ppc velocity quirks, so they need to be careful

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 01 April 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Would it make sense at this point to have the IS ERPPC be faster in terms of velocity than the Clan ERPPC, given that the Clan ERPPC does additional damage?

I mean... the IS PPC is generally better than the Clan ERPPC when it comes to heat, but that's it... and it being slower than the Clan ERPPC is fine.. but adjusting those numbers in that order would be the only way to differentiate the PPCs.

All of them need to be faster without quirks. For the Clan ERPeep in particular, I see three routes for differentiating/balancing them...


A. Keep their speed super slow, but give them their full 15 PPLD.

B. Boost their speed up, but less than the IS version.

C. Go bananas and ramp them straight up to 2000 m/s, BUT then reduce their direct damage and increase the arcing effect. So, you'd get an uber fast super sniper gun, except that it dealt less damage to the hitbox you're aiming at. I imagine that they would do no more than 7.5 direct damage (3.75 x 2 splash) and no less than 5 (5 x 2 splash).

Option B is probably the easiest to make balance.

Edited by FupDup, 01 April 2015 - 06:12 PM.

[InspectorG]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

LPL isn't 15 heat at a 4 sec recycle either.

Same reason most IS mechs don't use ER-PPCs

That was my original argument, heat limitation.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

All of them need to be faster without quirks. For the Clan ERPeep in particular, I see three routes for differentiating/balancing them...

A. Keep their speed super slow, but give them their full 15 PPLD.
B. Boost their speed up, but less than the IS version.
C. Go bananas and ramp them straight up to 2000 m/s, BUT then reduce their direct damage and increase the arcing effect. So, you'd get an uber fast super sniper gun, except that it dealt less damage to the hitbox you're aiming at. I imagine that they would do no more than 7.5 direct damage (3.75 x 2 splash) and no less than 5 (5 x 2 splash).

Option B is probably the easiest to make balance.

I was talking about global PPC/ERPPC balance and not so much quirks (although those truly need to be adjusted as a result).

I have no purpose for PPCs/ERPPCs in general when they are not quirked at all. Laservomit wins the day currently.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 April 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[N0MAD]

Deathlike, on 01 April 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

I was talking about global PPC/ERPPC balance and not so much quirks (although those truly need to be adjusted as a result).

I have no purpose for PPCs/ERPPCs in general when they are not quirked at all. Laservomit wins the day currently.

How can you possibly globaly balance a weapon system for the IS with the state of the magic quirks on those mechs? really.
Any adjustment to an IS weapons system that isnt a nerf is just going to create monsters of the mechs already magically enhanced with quirks..

[Deathlike]

N0MAD, on 01 April 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

How can you possibly globaly balance a weapon system for the IS with the state of the magic quirks on those mechs? really.
Any adjustment to an IS weapons system that isnt a nerf is just going to create monsters of the mechs already magically enhanced with quirks..

If a weapon isn't really good WITHOUT QUIRKS, and ONLY good when it has quirks... that's not a good state of the weapon.

Very rarely people use IS PPCs or IS ERPPCs on IS mechs that have NO PPC QUIRKS.

It's really as simple a test to know the viability of a weapon.

Once you set the baseline, you can adjust the quirk values of ALREADY quirked mechs. It's a numbers game after all.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

All of them need to be faster without quirks. For the Clan ERPeep in particular, I see three routes for differentiating/balancing them...


A. Keep their speed super slow, but give them their full 15 PPLD.

B. Boost their speed up, but less than the IS version.

C. Go bananas and ramp them straight up to 2000 m/s, BUT then reduce their direct damage and increase the arcing effect. So, you'd get an uber fast super sniper gun, except that it dealt less damage to the hitbox you're aiming at. I imagine that they would do no more than 7.5 direct damage (3.75 x 2 splash) and no less than 5 (5 x 2 splash).

Option B is probably the easiest to make balance.

How about a different version of B? Raise the speed a little on both and reduce the heat and maybe the range on the IS version. Make it mimic the parity between the ERLL of both tech bases.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 April 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

All of them need to be faster without quirks. For the Clan ERPeep in particular, I see three routes for differentiating/balancing them...


A. Keep their speed super slow, but give them their full 15 PPLD.

B. Boost their speed up, but less than the IS version.

C. Go bananas and ramp them straight up to 2000 m/s, BUT then reduce their direct damage and increase the arcing effect. So, you'd get an uber fast super sniper gun, except that it dealt less damage to the hitbox you're aiming at. I imagine that they would do no more than 7.5 direct damage (3.75 x 2 splash) and no less than 5 (5 x 2 splash).

Option B is probably the easiest to make balance.

Don't forget the unmentionable option for PGI.....make a weapon have a longer cooldown than 4 seconds! *gasp*

[Felicitatem Parco]

The clan ERPPC deals more damage than the IS ERPPC, but weighs less, takes up fewer slots, and generates the same heat.

If the Clan ERPPC gets a buff, then the IS ERPPC should get a bigger one.

Yes, the IS gets a normal PPC, but the Clan ERPPC already beats the pants off the IS ERPPC.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

How about a different version of B? Raise the speed a little on both and reduce the heat and maybe the range on the IS version. Make it mimic the parity between the ERLL of both tech bases.

The problem with reducing IS ERPPC heat is that it starts to overlap more with the regular PPC...which is going to lead to one of them getting a luckier set of traits than the other, thus being the go-to choice (sort of like IS LL vs IS ERLL outside of quirks).

I also think that just having really high heat helps distinguish that it isn't a very good choice to sustained fights, especially brawls...

[Sable]

Prosperity Park, on 01 April 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

The clan ERPPC deals more damage than the IS ERPPC, but weighs less, takes up fewer slots, and generates the same heat.

If the Clan ERPPC gets a buff, then the IS ERPPC should get a bigger one.

Yes, the IS gets a normal PPC, but the Clan ERPPC already beats the pants off the IS ERPPC.

What??? Why would they ever make the IS ERPPC better than the clan one? The clan version is supposed to be better but it's not right now.

Edited by Sable, 01 April 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[Averen]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The problem is that ERPPCs (and normal PPCs) aren't actually a sniper weapon, because their slow projectile makes them easy to dodge even before you reach their optimal range of 810m...

It's still a weapon with an insane range, and that long range comes with some compensation. That's not to say I wouldn't mind a small speed buff... But i'm not sure it needs one.

[FupDup]

Sable, on 01 April 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

What??? Why would they ever make the IS ERPPC better than the clan one? The clan version is supposed to be better but it's not right now.

MWO isn't a top-down strategy game like TT where you can control multiple units. In MWO you can't overwhelm a Protoss army with a crapton of Zerglings. You get 12 Zerglings, and your enemy gets 12 Zealots. As such, there needs to be parity between the two units or else you can expect to see a lot more Zealot players than Zerglings...

Not to mention that it's just more interesting to create a "different playstyle/flavor" type of deal rather than just a reskin with outright better stats.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

The problem with reducing IS ERPPC heat is that it starts to overlap more with the regular PPC...which is going to lead to one of them getting a luckier set of traits than the other, thus being the go-to choice (sort of like IS LL vs IS ERLL outside of quirks).

I also think that just having really high heat helps distinguish that it isn't a very good choice to sustained fights, especially brawls...

It doesn't take much heat to distinguish though, even reducing it by a 1/6 is a huge jump (15 -> 12.5). Then again, I think all PPCs and ACs (except the 2) need their velocity increased. Not to mention the PPC not having minimum range would work wonders in actually making them worth it in some brawls (and help against FS9-As).

[FupDup]

Averen, on 01 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

It's still a weapon with an insane range, and that long range comes with some compensation. That's not to say I wouldn't mind a small speed buff... But i'm not sure it needs one.

It has insane range on paper, but in practice it's unreliable at that range.

It's sort of like how LRMs are advertised as going out to 1000 meters...but how often are they actually useful at that distance? They tend to not do so well past even just 600 meters.

See also: LBX, SRMs, MGs...