84 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Prosperity Park, on 01 April 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

The clan ERPPC deals more damage than the IS ERPPC, but weighs less, takes up fewer slots, and generates the same heat.

If the Clan ERPPC gets a buff, then the IS ERPPC should get a bigger one.

Yes, the IS gets a normal PPC, but the Clan ERPPC already beats the pants off the IS ERPPC.

No.Really it doesn't

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 April 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

It doesn't take much heat to distinguish though, even reducing it by a 1/6 is a huge jump (15 -> 12.5). Then again, I think all PPCs and ACs (except the 2) need their velocity increased. Not to mention the PPC not having minimum range would work wonders in actually making them worth it in some brawls (and help against FS9-As).

With the regular PPC at 10 heat and ERPPC at 12.5 heat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which one is the winner...

I'd rather use things like cooldowns, velocity, and/or arcing damage (Clan version only) for differentiation rather than heat. Let them be hot as their bottleneck that keeps them in check, and make them good enough at range to make it worth the heat.

[Averen]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

It has insane range on paper, but in practice it's unreliable at that range.

It's sort of like how LRMs are advertised as going out to 1000 meters...but how often are they actually useful at that distance? They tend to not do so well past even just 600 meters.

See also: LBX, SRMs, MGs...

It's a realatively light niche flpp weapon. The PPC is what you're asking for.

And really, do you want ERPPCs sniping mediums at 700m? That would be just broken.

[FupDup]

Averen, on 01 April 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

It's a realatively light niche flpp weapon. The PPC is what you're asking for.

And really, do you want ERPPCs sniping mediums at 700m? That would be just broken.

Even a decently maneuverable assault can dodge them at 700m right now...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

With the regular PPC at 10 heat and ERPPC at 12.5 heat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which one is the winner...

I'd rather use things like cooldowns, velocity, and/or arcing damage (Clan version only) for differentiation rather than heat. Let them be hot as their bottleneck that keeps them in check, and make them good enough at range to make it worth the heat.

I'd much rather use cooldowns, but that isn't possible because PGI. Velocity is ok, but I would prefer both because it needs something decent to overcome the disadvantage that is the 15 heat.

Also keep in mind, that the 12.5 heat is still more heat than the TDR-9S currently enjoys so if it had the heat gen quirks removed or reduced in turn it would mean more than the 9S could viably mount them.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 01 April 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 April 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

I'd much rather use cooldowns, but that isn't possible because PGI. Velocity is ok, but I would prefer both because it needs something decent to overcome the disadvantage that is the 15 heat.

Also keep in mind, that the 12.5 heat is still more heat than the TDR-9S currently enjoys so if it had the heat gen quirks removed or reduced in turn it would mean more than the 9S could viably mount them.

It's not really the heat that's the biggest thing holding them back, it's that they don't give you much in return for that heat. When their projectile speed was quite decent (1500 m/s pre-nerf) they could reach out to a good distance and hit someone square in the face. They were a pretty good gun, and I think they were mostly in a good state at that time.

I say mostly because there was a movement that thought they were OP...but I personally attributed that more to screwy JJ mechanics (toaster pastries) rather than the PPCs themselves. I guess that if a nerf was really needed back then, they could have tacked on a extra 0.5-1.0 seconds to the cooldown, or maybe reduce the velocity by a small amount (instead of use the Hammer of God himself to smash them down into the ground at 950 m/s). Once the Dire Whale showed up and started using 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC, though, Paul came in and ruined it for everyone...


Just lowering their heat would probably push them into a role similar to laser vomit in that you just keep puking them out at mid ranges. Given that they already have the uniqueness of being the only FLD energy weapon, I think that their role should also remain distinctive...in this case, a mid-long range hammer that doesn't have the overall versatility of lasers as a drawback (due to heat and slightly extended cooldowns limiting their effectiveness in more prolonged fights).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

It's not really the heat that's the biggest thing holding them back, it's that they don't give you much in return for that heat. When their projectile speed was quite decent (1500 m/s pre-nerf) they could reach out to a good distance and hit someone square in the face. They were a pretty good gun, and I think they were mostly in a good state at that time.

I don't remember ERPPC's being the only PPC mounted though. Weren't they combined with regular PPCs since they had the same velocity so you could sync them at mid as well as have some decent energy weapon to supplement your alpha at extreme and sub-90m?

Maybe if they were 1500 m/s weapons again they would be decent for the heat (with clans at 1250 m/s).

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 01 April 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

I don't remember ERPPC's being the only PPC mounted though. Weren't they combined with regular PPCs since they had the same velocity so you could sync them at mid as well as have some decent energy weapon to supplement your alpha at extreme and sub-90m?

Maybe if they were 1500 m/s weapons again they would be decent for the heat (with clans at 1250 m/s).

Way back when, it went like this:

If you mounted 1, you used the ERPPC most of the time.
If you used 2+, you probably used regular PPCs, with some people mixing both.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Somehow I don't like them to tinker with the velocity to much because it's a pain to learn that weapon anew. Believe it or not but I have big problems aiming my PPCs with my Panther because of the 40% velocity buff.

ERPPCs are long range weapons which have PPFLD on a greater range than other weapons which they pay for with their high heat. I would be in for a velocity increase for the ERPPC, not as a quirk for certain mechs. The only mechs that use the PPC currently are those who got them quirked i.e. Thunderbolt. That should make it clear that somethings not right with that weapon.

[Widowmaker1981]

PPCs are garbage weapons outside of quirks right now. Pick of the bunch is the IS PPC but it still garbage with its treacle like projectile speed. Since PGI seems intent on only allowing 'approved' chassis use the PPC by keeping its velocity in the toilet and then handing out 20% or more velocity to any mech that comes with one stock (except the Grasshopper, wtf is that?) id do the following:

Increase/reduce all the Velocity buffs to 30% on IS mechs (mainly to keep all PPCs acting roughly the same. Try using PPCs on a Panther and then swapping to PPCs on a Grasshopper, its fecking ridiculous)
Reduce IS ERPPC to 12.5 heat (because the range is very situational at their velocity you are really only paying to lose the min range when you go ER, 5 heat is too much)
Buff the Warhawk and Adder with GOOD PPC velocity quirks (30% or so), and a little bit of PPC heat generation, particularly for the Adder.

Personally, id prefer they kill all the PPC/ERPPC velocity quirks and buff them to 1400/1500 m/s as base stats so i can use them on any mech i want to, but i think PGI are too scared of doing that.. (and i can kinda see how certain mechs have hardpoints too well suited to PPC sniping, Battlemasters for example)

[Quxudica]

Fuggles, on 01 April 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

april 7th patch were getting
"Quirks Pass on Clan mechs both new and some iteration on others"

so what kind of quirks are you hoping to see?

i know having just leveled up warhawks id love to see them get some love, here's what id like to see:

lt/rt all variants 15 armor
prime L/R arms and A LA 15% CERPPC velocity increase, -5% energy heat -7.5% erppc heat (each arm)
A RA 10% ballistic cd
A RT 5% missle cd

for the nova id love to see + cerslas, csplas range, further energy heat reduction, as well as armor/structure buffs all over, it seriously needs some defensive love.

Won't happen, but I'd like to see quirks not be so weapon centric. To much of the game is geared toward dealing damage and I'd rather see some quirks for other things. Sensor range, ECM/BAP/TAG effectiveness, damage type resistance, critical resistance. Just something more than "dull % boost to whatever current meta is"

[Telmasa]

Johnny Z, on 01 April 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I am hoping for less cheese on my Mechwarrior Online come any new quirks.

So much this. The IS quirkenings have me in fear of any future quirk buffs breaking the game in similar fashion. (And not all the broken mess from the quirkenings have been cleaned up yet, either.

@ ongoing PPC discussion:
I've been able to land shots with my dual erppc Nova (in the arms, guys, it's not a metacheeser) by virtue of the shots being slower, that I think would have been harder if they went faster.

It takes alot of experience to account for it though, and it does make certain brawling situations very ponderous.

And, of course, shooting at long ranges is still kind of a dice roll between you & your target on whether he happens to move soon enough or not. Which is kind of a weird thing - Mechs performing the Matrix move against PPCs.

Trying really hard, combined with experience, can get around this ^ (it's a bit of trolling, really, cause you have to predict how your target is about to react - which, when done right, can be quite satisfying when it still hits despite their best efforts...), but in the end I have to admit, it's a REALLY long way for a player to stretch to counteract all the difficulty brought on by the projectile speed being so low.

It's the same problem as Clan UACs, come to think of it (though that isn't weapon specific [they're the same as IS speeds] - it's the issue of the overall velocities in this game being low becoming magnified by multiple rapidfiring projectiles - subtle distinction, but important to clarify).

Edited by Telmasa, 02 April 2015 - 12:30 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

Way back when, it went like this:

If you mounted 1, you used the ERPPC most of the time.
If you used 2+, you probably used regular PPCs, with some people mixing both.

This is the thing, you never mounted more than one which just seems to tell me they weren't actually balanced, the I-PPCs have always been the more dominant weapon.

I'd be interested to see how bumping its velocity back to 1500 m/s would change the status of the I-ERPPC, just to see whether it allows it to compete better with the I-ERLL but I have my doubts on whether that alone will be enough.

In a world where PGI wasn't so scared to give something outside of streaks long recycle times, this weapon would simply have a longer recycle time in exchange for being an competent long range weapon, one can dream.

[Averen]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Even a decently maneuverable assault can dodge them at 700m right now...

Shooting moving mechs at 800m should be hard. Hillhumpers and stationary enemies are the one you usually should aim for. The difficulty in efficiently using weapons systems was imo always one of the great things about MWO.

Mind tho, i still think ERPPCs in general are not very good, to say the least. Very, very niche weapon, since the insane range rarely comes into play. But imagine if Clans got good normal PPCs: That would mean the IS advantage of frontloaded damage would be gone.

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

In a world where PGI wasn't so scared to give something outside of streaks long recycle times, this weapon would simply have a longer recycle time in exchange for being an competent long range weapon, one can dream.

Too much frontloaded damage was once a big issue. Frankly, i'm more than happy about the current dynamic between frontloaded and dps weaponry. Both has it's place and uses.

Edited by Averen, 02 April 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[Paigan]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

[...] a mid-long range hammer that doesn't have the overall versatility of lasers as a drawback (due to heat and slightly extended cooldowns limiting their effectiveness in more prolonged fights).

A weapon with a noticable projectile speed (say < 5000 m/s) and no guidance system will NEVER be a viable general purpose long range weapon compared to instantly perfectly hitting long range lasers.

As it is today, I laugh every opponent in the face who tries a long-range dual with ERPPCs against my ERLL.
Having 1500m/s again or even 2k instead of 1000m/s might help that, but it would still have no hope of hitting a slightly moving mech at long distance.

Unguided projectile speed per se means one of two things:
A. only close range
B. only stationary targets

The (maybe even Battletech lore?) design of a weapon with long range and relatively slow projectile speed can only be viable for one thing: shooting dropships, turrets, maybe assault mechs. Big stuff that moves only slowly or not at all.

The current Warhawk-Prime is like a Catapult of old ages: It gets into position at some stationary target and then starts to lay siege on it from a distance. As we have no fortresses or Dropships or whatever to siege, it is pretty much useless compared to a laser Warhawk. And even then, ERLL would do its job better.

To give PPCs an actual advantage, a distinct role, they would have to have some kind of special. Like being an AoE weapon (true AoE, meaning you hit the ground and still deal damage or damage multiple enemies at once) or messing up the hit mech's electronics for a brief period (not just ECM, but all GUI for 1 second or somthing like that).

Edited by Paigan, 02 April 2015 - 01:20 AM.

[JustEvil]

FupDup, on 01 April 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Option B is probably the easiest to make balance.

Not really. The easiest way to achieve balance is to make weapons as they should be, remove all quirks and balance things through boosting mech defenses, thus increasing TTK and giving the player more tactical options.

Weapons characteristics should be fixed. M2 75mm gun won't magically penetrate modern tanks if you mount it on the M1 Abrams chassis. To do this you need new weapon and thus mounting 105 mm L/52 on Sherman would make it obliterate King Tigers at the mere glance of an eye.

Chassis will only change protection, speed and electronics. You can probably make something more accurate by giving it better chassis, but it wont magically turn a simple machine gun into weapon of massive destruction and chaos.

Edited by JustEvil, 02 April 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Various ballistic quirks for various chassis.

Clans can't be all about laser vomit. That's just boring.

Well, minus the unholy trinity of course.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 April 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mike Forst, on 01 April 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

I'm going to see what I can do about putting together a preview soon.

thx, that sounds great.

[Sjorpha]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

No.Really it doesn't

Sure it does.

There is no way of denying that the CERPPC is better than the IS ERPPC, since it is exactly the same weapon plus lower weight and splash damage.

In other words the CERPPC sucks, and the IS ERPPC sucks even more.

(there are quirks on some mechs obscuring this simple fact, and yes they might need toning down if the weapon was buffed, but bringing that up as if it changed the actual state of the weapons is a red herring.)

[SaltBeef]

I suspect they will still be gimped even after their .5 percent quirk increases.