65 replies to this topic

[Strykewolf]

Well...won't be much longer and I'll do a swing-thru with the clans for mech bays and, 2...maybe 3, will be trial mechs. And you know what? I don't give a rats arse what you think. <<shrugs>>

[YCSLiesmith]

yeah i kind of boggled at the thunderbolt 9ss, what idiot would put PPCs in that thing when you could cram it with large lasers instead

and the stalker which seems ok at first (double heat sinks, 4 llas) for some reason has a couple srm4s. why would anyone want that

[Soy]

First CW match I ever played, 1800 dmg, 7 kills, 20 something assists with 4 stock IS trial mechs. I don't even remember what they were.

What's the problem? You can do it for free and get wrecked most likely, or grind 100mil for each faction and make a dropdeck. Most people are somewhere in between.

There's way WAY bigger problems with CW, fundamentally, than ******* trial mech issues.

[Grynos]

YCSLiesmith, on 02 April 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

yeah i kind of boggled at the thunderbolt 9ss, what idiot would put PPCs in that thing when you could cram it with large lasers instead

and the stalker which seems ok at first (double heat sinks, 4 llas) for some reason has a couple srm4s. why would anyone want that

For that close range punch????

And what is this 9ss you speak of ?? You mean the 5s or 5ss ?

Edited by Grynos, 02 April 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Tesunie, on 01 April 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

Though I agree that CW should be treated as end game type material, I also agree with you that we shouldn't exclude anyone from it. Not unless we could somehow come up with some kind of level system (I don't see how this could happen) where once you reach a certain rank, you would unlock additional game modes.

I think CW should cater to end game type stuff, and ignore the complaints of some people about it being too difficult. It's suppose to be difficult, especially if you aren't prepared for end game harder material. (Am I making sense here?)

I'd ask what you define as 'End Game' material then. If everyone has access but it's 'End Game' wouldn't that mean you're at the end game the second you start? I personally dislike the term 'End Game' as it implies there is nothing else to do after that point. I'd rather look at CW as 'Core Game' mechanics as it was what was originally pitched for the title and took forever to arrive.

In that regard, I agree everyone should have access, and the game population shouldn't be the state it is now where ~80% are in the Public queue, and ~20% are in CW. That should be inverted values. The biggest problems I'm still seeing to that is 1.) Long wait times, with no faster or alternative means to have an impact or find a game. 2.) Poor explanation of expectations/objectives 3.) Buggy or Incomplete level design and mechanics

The other issues stem back to just attitudes or unfun experiences that severely taint peoples views quickly. This can end up being subjective as the first experiences end up being the ones that stick. My first CW game I enjoyed it even with the half hour wait I had to do Ended up doing a defense against clans back when the only map was Boreal. While there wasn't anything that really stood out, I thought the experience of riding in on a dropship and getting to a firing line while trying to hold fixed positions was fun.

While for a few people in my unit when we played as a lance, their first game was a 45 minute wait, then a 4 minute game as a light rush took out the Omega. They chalked the whole thing up to being a waste of time and don't want to participate anymore because of that extreme wait time.

Gotta keep in mind, not everyone has an unlimited amount of time to play. I personally can only do 1 to 2 hours of gaming a night. So for the challenge weekend I didn't really play because I just don't have that kind of time. Even with the surge in population the two attempts I made ended up with 1 Ghost drop (25 minute wait) and 1 Attack Match (20 minute wait for defenders to arrive).

[Stealth Fox]

I'm just gonna stop you right there and tell you to go screw your self. Clan mechs are expensive, Trying to get the ones you want Mastered takes a long long time, so does filling out a drop deck. There are a lot of pilots that have been running the game a long time who have a mixed deck, who don't want to drop any more cash on PGI yet but still are looking to play to keep an eye on things.. Some of them.. do not have a full drop deck of Clan mechs cause they also love their IS mechs..

This would force them not to play when they can handle decently built trials just fine.

[Tesunie]

Grynos, on 02 April 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Played the other day, the trial banshee has 6 LPL's , yet has single heat sinks ( like every other trial IS mech ) and yet is quirked for PPC velocity and medium laser cd. The thunderbolt trial is quirked for LPL's yet has a PPC. If the trials were equipped to use the quirks that were given to them it would help.

Call me wrong if you want, but I just looked through every Trial mech produced (via smurfy mechlab). Not a single one of those trial mechs have single heat sinks. All trail mechs have Double Heat Sinks.

I'd also like to remind that many of those trial mechs where, at their time, within the meta of that mech upon it's release. The meta has shifted, which has now placed those trials in a worse position than it was in before. Many of those mechs also where created before quirks where released for those chassis, which also explains why many of them have champion builds that do not match the quirks on the mech. (I'd also like to now point out that a mech doesn't have to follow it's quirks to be a good design.)

The Banshee build in question has 6 LPLs with 17 double heat sinks, 10 of which are "true doubles".

Mirkk Defwode, on 02 April 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I'd ask what you define as 'End Game' material then. If everyone has access but it's 'End Game' wouldn't that mean you're at the end game the second you start? I personally dislike the term 'End Game' as it implies there is nothing else to do after that point. I'd rather look at CW as 'Core Game' mechanics as it was what was originally pitched for the title and took forever to arrive.

In that regard, I agree everyone should have access, and the game population shouldn't be the state it is now where ~80% are in the Public queue, and ~20% are in CW. That should be inverted values. The biggest problems I'm still seeing to that is 1.) Long wait times, with no faster or alternative means to have an impact or find a game. 2.) Poor explanation of expectations/objectives 3.) Buggy or Incomplete level design and mechanics

The other issues stem back to just attitudes or unfun experiences that severely taint peoples views quickly. This can end up being subjective as the first experiences end up being the ones that stick. My first CW game I enjoyed it even with the half hour wait I had to do Ended up doing a defense against clans back when the only map was Boreal. While there wasn't anything that really stood out, I thought the experience of riding in on a dropship and getting to a firing line while trying to hold fixed positions was fun.

While for a few people in my unit when we played as a lance, their first game was a 45 minute wait, then a 4 minute game as a light rush took out the Omega. They chalked the whole thing up to being a waste of time and don't want to participate anymore because of that extreme wait time.

Gotta keep in mind, not everyone has an unlimited amount of time to play. I personally can only do 1 to 2 hours of gaming a night. So for the challenge weekend I didn't really play because I just don't have that kind of time. Even with the surge in population the two attempts I made ended up with 1 Ghost drop (25 minute wait) and 1 Attack Match (20 minute wait for defenders to arrive).

"End game" as in activities not well suited (in this case) for new players. CW was designed for units and more intense team play action/coordination. A PUG and/or new player should be harder pressed within CW. Just because it's available to a player when they join shouldn't necessarily make it any less "end game" content. You have to prepare yourself and your mechs for CW typically. It's harder than the standard matches, so it's a step up from those matches.

I wish to see CW remain as an "end game" style of content, something more challenging and needing more work and better created mechs to play than typical public matches. Let people grow from one game style/type to the other at their own pace. Some people will be able to do well in CW with trials and stock mechs, because they are good team players, or just able to use what they have well. Thus, if someone wishes to step into CW earlier than suggested (suggested is after you've mastered at least a few mech, got some modules for said mechs, and possibly even joined a unit), let them try. They may be good with it and enjoy it.

I don't know if I'm explaining this as clearly as I'd like... I know how I view CW and how I'd like CW to be viewed. I just haven't considered how to explain it well I think.


I don't disagree with some of the problems you have described with CW. The waits can be a bit much sometimes, as well as waiting so long only to get a turret run... Things continue to improve though, and new systems are put into place to help inform people of places they can go for activity. More work is still needed though with CW. PGI is working on it still. (It is still in Beta, I might wish to remind.)

[T-Rex]

Just try to think a bit different.
What woud give a new player more reason to stay and learn the game?

1) Be able to jump right into CW, with no real tutorial and experience and with 4 crappy mechs. Find yourself against premades and get stomped in every game.

2) Seeing there is a gamemode for players with some experience and equipment. Something you can join after you build yourself up. A goal you can work for.

I woud say 2 is the better one. Tell me one MMORPG where you can start raiding from lvl1 on? Yes i know MWO isnt a MMORPG but i hope you see my point.
I am not saying new playes shoud be banned from the real game, thnk of it as they need to be prepared for it. Honestly someone with no experience and crappy mechs dosent helps the team at all. And yes some of the players around have no idea what they are doing after playing over a year and build real trash mechs. but thats not the point. At last they had the chance to learn and become great players.

just my 2c

[Romeo Deluxe]

Vulcanos, on 02 April 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Just try to think a bit different.
What woud give a new player more reason to stay and learn the game?

1) Be able to jump right into CW, with no real tutorial and experience and with 4 crappy mechs. Find yourself against premades and get stomped in every game.

2) Seeing there is a gamemode for players with some experience and equipment. Something you can join after you build yourself up. A goal you can work for.

I woud say 2 is the better one. Tell me one MMORPG where you can start raiding from lvl1 on? Yes i know MWO isnt a MMORPG but i hope you see my point.
I am not saying new playes shoud be banned from the real game, thnk of it as they need to be prepared for it. Honestly someone with no experience and crappy mechs dosent helps the team at all. And yes some of the players around have no idea what they are doing after playing over a year and build real trash mechs. but thats not the point. At last they had the chance to learn and become great players.

just my 2c

EVE Online, a much harsher pvp game than this one and x100 the learning curve, allows new players to go anywhere and take their chances. That game is successfully going for over 10 years.

I have personally seen or sometimes helped new players excel even though they are total scrubs and be more successful than veterans who don't think outside the box or take chances. The amount of their success was quite surprising I might add.

[Tesunie]

Romeo Deluxe, on 02 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

EVE Online, a much harsher pvp game than this one and x100 the learning curve, allows new players to go anywhere and take their chances. That game is successfully going for over 10 years.

I may be wrong, but I believe the two of you are in agreeance. Leave CW open to everyone, but leave it as a harder place than public matches. (Correct me if I'm wrong on what's basically being said here.)

[Sandersson Jankins]

Document the game better, let new players know JUST WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO, and PERHAPS make it so only 1-3 trials mechs could be used.

It wouldn't meaningfully affect population too much to disallow 4 trial mechs in a drop deck, I think. You KNOW there are players that get this game for CW because, well...it looks neat. Its my favorite mode, and I don't play normals, so I know!

But for your FIRST MWO GAME? Oh god! The horror! So if you disallow BRAND NEW players from playing, that'd be fine, I think. As long as you have documentation in the game of why they are disallowed, how soon they can participate, etc. Document EVERYTHING! I have seen time and time again in competitive PvP games, all the information becomes sourced to the forums. Not all (or even most!) players will go to the forums!

As far as players that have maybe a week under their belt or more? Put 'em into CW. If they hate it, they'll learn why and adapt, or fail to learn why and quit. Or they'll learn why and THEN quit! It ain't for everyone.

[Romeo Deluxe]

I was thinking more of the raiding comment. He said name an MMO you can go anywhere and take your chances the moment you log into it. EVE is such a game. Is it a bad idea? Depends on the player.

BTW "depends" is the most used answer in EVE. That game is complex and there are many paths to use. I have learned from scrubs as well as vets.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 02 April 2015 - 10:53 PM.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Romeo Deluxe, on 02 April 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

I was thinking more of the raiding comment. He said name an MMO you can go anywhere and take your chances the moment you log into it. EVE is such a game.

Do take into account EVE's massive difference from this game, outside of general pseudo-realistic sci-fi setting.

EVE is an MMO with SPREADSHEETS that make internet financiers and armchair tycoons cream themselves. It's massively more large, and has a vastly different impact that players can have.

Not to mention, they can also do this because
a)Well, from what I've read they just don't CARE about people whining, they happily let people lose things in-game worth THOUSANDS. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE that.
It already has the reputation, and the history. MWO doesn't. People will almost certainly know what EVE is all about. It has had time to become infamous and establish a hardcore base. MWO has BT turbonerds (me!) and big mechy stompy shooty fans. Not as rabid (ok maybe the BT boys)

[Chocowolf Sradac]

It doesn't exactly help when the IS gets champions to use where as clans only use stock clan mechs which the difference is quite atrocious. Granted not all the champions are good anymore but afew are still quite viable post IS quirkining not to mention the fact the mech isn't stock

[Romeo Deluxe]

Sandersson Jankins, on 02 April 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

Document the game better, let new players know JUST WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO, and PERHAPS make it so only 1-3 trials mechs could be used.

It wouldn't meaningfully affect population too much to disallow 4 trial mechs in a drop deck, I think. You KNOW there are players that get this game for CW because, well...it looks neat. Its my favorite mode, and I don't play normals, so I know!

But for your FIRST MWO GAME? Oh god! The horror! So if you disallow BRAND NEW players from playing, that'd be fine, I think. As long as you have documentation in the game of why they are disallowed, how soon they can participate, etc. Document EVERYTHING! I have seen time and time again in competitive PvP games, all the information becomes sourced to the forums. Not all (or even most!) players will go to the forums!

As far as players that have maybe a week under their belt or more? Put 'em into CW. If they hate it, they'll learn why and adapt, or fail to learn why and quit. Or they'll learn why and THEN quit! It ain't for everyone.

Once again a bad idea.
Documentation, etc - this is needed before this game goes to Steam or it will flop.
Restrictions - bad idea.

Case in point - new player joins because his friends convinced him. The best place to learn is for him to go with his friends into whatever trouble they lead him into.

[Elizander]

SharpCookie, on 01 April 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

There is no reason to bring trials in CW except to handicap your team. An organized group may forgive and carry you, but that's not going to happen in a PUG match.

If you can't afford a drop deck of mechs, then grind SOLO until you can. You simply do not belong in CW yet. PUGs don't belong in CW, but someone has to fill in the groups smaller than 12. That someone should not be a newbie in trials.

PS: My experience is 100% PUG clan side. IS may have the same problem.. A lot of clan trials are just garbage being piloted by newer pilots. Over 95% of every PUG CW match I have been in, that's over 110k LP worth, has at least 2 players with between 0 and 300 damage across 4 mechs. This is a result of the combination of new/bad player and trial mechs. Just say NO to TRIALS IN CW.

The 0-300 damage over 4 mechs happens on IS too. I saw someone who couldn't break 100 and had all 4 mechs blown up before I dropped on my second mech. Clan Trials need to get the champion treatment (well hopefully better than some champions).

Still, if you remove trials from CW you're killing your own numbers since not everyone has 4 mechs to qualify for the drop. What I recommend is that PGI creates a CW specific deck (which isn't gimped) for both IS/Clam.

[SharpCookie]

Strykewolf, on 02 April 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Well...won't be much longer and I'll do a swing-thru with the clans for mech bays and, 2...maybe 3, will be trial mechs. And you know what? I don't give a rats arse what you think. <<shrugs>>

Exactly the response I expected from someone who wants additional mech bays at any cost except buying them with real money.

I change factions for mechbays too, but I only use Elite/Master mechs. With customized equipment and pilot skills, I perform better, contribute to more wins, earn more LP, and get that mech bay faster all without being a burden on the team.

Seph MacLeod, on 02 April 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm just gonna stop you right there and tell you to go screw your self. Clan mechs are expensive, Trying to get the ones you want Mastered takes a long long time, so does filling out a drop deck. There are a lot of pilots that have been running the game a long time who have a mixed deck, who don't want to drop any more cash on PGI yet but still are looking to play to keep an eye on things.. Some of them.. do not have a full drop deck of Clan mechs cause they also love their IS mechs..

This would force them not to play when they can handle decently built trials just fine.

I screw myself every time I decide to play CW, and the 9 out of 10 matches has 1-3 players using trial mechs. And 4 out of 5 times those players do less than 500 damage total or are the first to lose all four mechs.

Yeah, Clans are expensive. I did the grind (been playing since OB). I also have a mastered drop deck for both IS and Clan, and the only money I spent is buying more mech bays. Grind or pay. That's the essence of F2P.

Tesunie, on 02 April 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

Call me wrong if you want, but I just looked through every Trial mech produced (via smurfy mechlab). Not a single one of those trial mechs have single heat sinks. All trail mechs have Double Heat Sinks.

IS trials are champions and they have double heatsinks by design. 6 of 8 current Clan trials have garbage loadouts and will get stomped hard by IS meta quirk robots. The BNC trial you mentioned will outperform the DWF trial every time and at less tonnage. Only the SCR and MDD trial are barely decent, but still lacking (same can be said for some of the IS trials).



TLDR: Accessibility at the cost of quality. That's what trials bring.

Edited by SharpCookie, 02 April 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Romeo Deluxe, on 02 April 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

Once again a bad idea.
Documentation, etc - this is needed before this game goes to Steam or it will flop.
Restrictions - bad idea.

Case in point - new player joins because his friends convinced him. The best place to learn is for him to go with his friends into whatever trouble they lead him into.

Yes, ideally, you are correct!

However, as in real life, compromise must be made to insure greater success. This is why I do not feel restricting trials entirely is a good idea.

One provides new players with a good cushion of experience before CW. Sorry we have to disagree

[Romeo Deluxe]

There is a lot more to EVE than just spreadsheets. You also do not understand the game, granted you never played. Their operating philosophy, which is working BTW, is they make the tools that the players use to create the content. The players often surprise the devs which leads to them making more tools for players. They sometimes even actively create new features that allow solo or small corps screw with the big established ones.

There are plenty of normal people there. However, there are some crazies that have become world famous. You can hate to love them or love to hate them, but they will be more interesting than any NPC you saw in any game.

In all honesty what is there to MWO? There were just pubs, for 3 years and literally nothing else. Now there is pubs and CW....and literally nothing else. All these calls for no trials in CW just makes a smaller game even smaller!

[Sandersson Jankins]

Elizander, on 02 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

What I recommend is that PGI creates a CW specific deck (which isn't gimped) for both IS/Clam.

Oh! Oh! I like this one! Pick this one!!