65 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

I don't want to completely dismiss the experience of so many players, but I have two problems trying to relate to the whole hitreg on lights debate.

1. I don't see it myself, in all my games I have seen no evidence of "invulnerable lights" apart from shots missing due to network lag against fast moving lights. (which isn't the issue described here). I've never seen the fabled immobile light being invulnerable while other mechs take normal damage.

2. A distinct lack of convincing evidence, video footage or otherwise. The few videos I've seen either reveals high speed lag shield, shots that are simply missing (bad aim/lead) or general hitreg issues that affect all weight classes.

3. People often tend to forget that a firestarter (and other good hitbox lights like spider or panther) can actually tank a bunch of AC20 (for example) shots across it's torso components even with perfect hitreg, and in the same time output enough damage to destroy a bigger mech if that damage is focused on the right component. There doesn't necessarily have to be a bug involved in a light mech winning a "staring contest", it just requires the light to land it's alphas perfectly while the big mech does not.

It would be interesting to see a bunch of real gameplay videos of the immobile light eating much more damage than it should, until then I'm going to remain respectfully sceptical to the whole idea.

[Jon Gotham]

OP, it's NOT JUST LIGHTS.

It's any mech basically. At random, a mech can just stop taking damage. My most recent example was a Centurion that took SIX 40pt+ alphas to his rear CT-and still wasn't dead.
A zeus yesterday that took over 80pts of damage to his armour-less left ST...only to not lose it.....
A catapault that took 21 twin medlaser hits to his CT inside optimal range and STILL had armour....the list goes on and on......

[Averen]

Sjorpha, on 02 April 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

I don't want to completely dismiss the experience of so many players, but I have two problems trying to relate to the whole hitreg on lights debate.

1. I don't see it myself, in all my games I have seen no evidence of "invulnerable lights" apart from shots missing due to network lag against fast moving lights. (which isn't the issue described here). I've never seen the fabled immobile light being invulnerable while other mechs take normal damage.

2. A distinct lack of convincing evidence, video footage or otherwise. The few videos I've seen either reveals high speed lag shield, shots that are simply missing (bad aim/lead) or general hitreg issues that affect all weight classes.

3. People often tend to forget that a firestarter (and other good hitbox lights like spider or panther) can actually tank a bunch of AC20 (for example) shots across it's torso components even with perfect hitreg, and in the same time output enough damage to destroy a bigger mech if that damage is focused on the right component. There doesn't necessarily have to be a bug involved in a light mech winning a "staring contest", it just requires the light to land it's alphas perfectly while the big mech does not.

It would be interesting to see a bunch of real gameplay videos of the immobile light eating much more damage than it should, until then I'm going to remain respectfully sceptical to the whole idea.

You are pretty late to the party. That discussion had been had and prove had been presented a million times, years ago with the spider.

[Sjorpha]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

You are pretty late to the party. That discussion had been had and prove had been presented a million times, years ago with the spider.

No, I'm not late to the party. I was here during the spider discussions and the real issue then, like the real issue now, is that high speeds combined with good hitboxes are sometimes problematic for the game/HSR to handle.

But the proposition here is not about lag shield, it is that certain light mechs routinely can't be damaged while standing still, and this is what I'm sceptical about, that is what I want solid proof of to believe.

Saying that "proof has been presented a million times" is the typical kind of phrase when reinforcing a myth.

Either you present the proof again, present new evidence, provide source referenced to the old evience, or admit having no evidence. Vague references to alleged evidence in the past is beyond useless, because unless your proof is subject to scrutiny in the present it has no empirical value.

[Bigbacon]

the more weapons you fire at one time = the worse the hitreg is. especially true with laser weapons.

Edited by Bigbacon, 02 April 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[Hayashi]

Seems to be a ping effect as far as I can tell. The higher your ping is, the less likely you hit.

When high ping light fights high ping light, the match takes forever as neither can hit each other. When high ping light fights low ping assault, the assault oneshots the light. When low ping light fights high ping assault, the assault won't be able to hit with lasers, and can occasionally get in lucky shots with pinpoint weapons like ACs. When low ping light fights low ping assault, both can hit each other, and the assault normally oneshots the light.

The issue is especially bad with Firestarters and Spiders.

Edited by Hayashi, 02 April 2015 - 04:42 AM.

[Averen]

Sjorpha, on 02 April 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

No, I'm not late to the party. I was here during the spider discussions and the real issue then, like the real issue now, is that high speeds combined with good hitboxes are sometimes problematic for the game/HSR to handle.

But the proposition here is not about lag shield, it is that certain light mechs routinely can't be damaged while standing still, and this is what I'm sceptical about, that is what I want solid proof of to believe.

Saying that "proof has been presented a million times" is the typical kind of phrase when reinforcing a myth.

Either you present the proof again, present new evidence, provide source referenced to the old evience, or admit having no evidence. Vague references to alleged evidence in the past is beyond useless, because unless your proof is subject to scrutiny in the present it has no empirical value.

Good lord, you actually don't know? I vividly remember shooting 2xUACs/2xLL/2xML into an overheated Spider without too much happening. Multiple times, spiders was the prime mech beginners used, and they would constantly shutdown. Full salvos into the back with only limited damage.
There was even someone making a video about shooting actual invulnerable spots on a spider, it went that far. We also had a group of people always doubting. But despite them, PGI did finally fix the issue, and spiders - also stationary ones - suddenly died as much as other mechs. So no, that wasn't just about ping, and to some degree also happened with other mechs.

This is btw about taking to little damage, not no damage at all. I'm not going to proof anything tho, you're not entitled to my time and can believe what you want.

'The spider issue was purely a ping thing'. Wow. Comparing spiders with other lgihts should have told the full story. The Firestarter can't even use the 'tiny hitboxes' excuse.

edit: Fun fact, HSR was also broken for a while. Can't remember if it coincided with the invulnerable spider.

Edited by Averen, 02 April 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Almond Brown]

I guess the question to ask is to the OP.

What is your average Ping in game?

I have also put 2 x AC20 + 2 x 2 LL into a stationery Light Mech, very late in a Match (8-9 late), and the thing just runs away but not before burning off max armor or parts from my ride. I can be very frustrating indeed.

I do have a Low ping <40, so maybe it is time to fight fire with fire. I guess streaming YOUTUBE while playing is the way to go now, but it is a BS Derp Lag balance method, BUT, if that is what it takes to make the battlefield even, then so be it...

P.S. j/k of course.

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 April 2015 - 05:44 AM.

[Mawai]

I've never had a light mech stop and then I was unable to damage it. If it is moving it is a different story but if it is stopped this has rarely been a problem (in my experience) in the past. (I had at least one case of my Jager firing at a Stalker without the damage registering correctly ... but that isn't a light mech).

The only thing I can think of that would cause the situation you describe would be a desync bug of some sort where your client is not drawing the target mech at the location where the server thinks it should be ... and as a result your shots against a stationary mech miss.

The only way to verify would be with video ... and then submit the footage to PGI as a bug report.

If it is common enough then a few folks running video capture should see it relatively quickly.

Edited by Mawai, 02 April 2015 - 05:52 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Bigbacon, on 02 April 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

the more weapons you fire at one time = the worse the hitreg is. especially true with laser weapons.

I see this too. I've been testing srms for me, my limit is 12 (most reliable is x2 SRM6) missiles. Any more than 12 at any one time and I drop damage. My laser limit seems to be 4. My ppc limit seems to be 1.
Streaks and lrms seem unaffected.
Macine guns=rng lottery.
AC weapons, AC20 is very unreliable while AC10 is 2 limit, ac5 is 2 limit and ac2 seems to be around 3-4 limit.
Gauss seems unaffected.

[Otto Cannon]

There's certainly something going on at times. I can only offer my personal observations, but I've seen on three occasions Firestarter pilots not even bother running around a heavy but just stand still face on and kill it while taking repeated alphas. I know full well that lights aren't unhittable most of the time so it could just be incredibly bad hit reg, but it seems odd to me that the few times I noticed it were always Firestarters.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

PurplePaladin, on 01 April 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Is it just me? Yesterday, I'm playing a match, in a Medium mech, and a light mech comes up to me, stops completely, and starts firing. I'm thinking &quot;well, if he wants a toe to toe firefight, he's going to lose&quot;. He destroyed me, and never moved until I died. I thought it was just me or bad luck (or both).

Then someone say on the voice chat &quot;Somethings wrong, I can't damage some of them&quot; (I'm guessing he was talking about the light mechs&quot;. We ended up losing 0-12. I have not seen a 0-12 game in almost 2 years.

I did not think too much about it, until today. Another match, and I'm in a Stalker with 2LL; 2x4SRM;4SPL. It was the Forest Colony map, and I was waiting outside the entrance of he tunnel when I saw a movement blip coming through. And out pops a light mech. I thought &quot;I'll probably one-shot this poor guy&quot;. I gave him a point blank alpha, and he took almost no damage. And he just stood there, unmoving, and firing at me. Another full spread, he's still standing there and firing at me. A 3rd attack with all weapons, and he's STILL just standing there firing at me as I shut down.

While shut down, one of his teammates emerged from the tunnel too, and they finished me before I could cool down. So, is it just me? Is this happening to anyone else? And I just don't get how a light mech pilot &quot;chooses&quot; to just stand there, and still survive.

This happens to me on and off. Actually, I've noticed a lot lately that my LPL TDR9SE has this issue across mutiple mech weights. My alpha is 44 and some light mechs shrug this off no problem....it's very frustrating. A 44 alpha when a light is facing you should drop any light mech in a heart beat. Oh well...Internet gaming. Love/hate.

To quote big bacon - I think he's spot on with this. I have two variants of the same mech - one with 4 LPL one with 3 LPL, 2 SPL. The 4 LPL has much worse hit reg. for SE reason when firing mutiple weapons the damage drops!

Edited by Hyper99, 02 April 2015 - 08:04 AM.

[Asakara]

Quxudica, on 01 April 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

I've seen some lights appear to fall to pieces for nothing and I've seen others (particularly spiders) appear almost impervious. I hit a spider square on with a 50 point srm alpha and the paper doll barely registered any damage. Even if half the missiles missed, it should have been more than it was.

Try this :

[FupDup]

I think I've only had like, one distinctive time when a light mech didn't seem to register damage. It was actually an Adder, and I was shooting ERPPCs at it.

Beyond that, most of my difficulties have been caused by either my lack of skill for aiming a shot (lead too far or not far enough), or being unable to hold a DoT weapon over a single body part for the full duration. I rarely get these magical hitreg errors that everyone else insists are rampant.

Even then, I usually don't have much trouble taking on light mechs. I only fear them when I'm damaged or I'm outnumbered...in which case I would be afraid of encountering any mechs of any size.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

when it comes to light mechs espicially IS lights that exploit bad hit reg you need to shoot ahead of where they actually are and shoot the legs

The problem is with Cry engine not optimized enough to keep up with the speed of the light mech (since every component of the mech is considered in the engine as a player) it doesn't draw the mech where it actually is unless you've got a high refresh rate monitor

This is something that's been around for a long time and many people have presented pgi with possible solutions to this problem and have been ignored

Edited by Chocowolf, 02 April 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

All I can say is that the hit registration on my damned Adder Prime is, unfortunately, working perfectly

[DjPush]

Yes. Hit reg is off. The worst offfender is the Firestarter. Firestarters dont take damage and teleport all over the map. They are the most bugged and OP mech in this game. Get over it because they have been that way since day one and PGI knows it. Not gonna change anything. As far as other lights go.. Not that big of a problem.


Example:

Edited by DjPush, 02 April 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[Adiuvo]

DjPush, on 02 April 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

Yes. Hit reg is off. The worst offfender is the Firestarter. Firestarters dont take damage and teleport all over the map. They are the most bugged and OP mech in this game. Get over it because they have been that way since day one and PGI knows it. Not gonna change anything. As far as other lights go.. Not that big of a problem.

Of all the videos to try and show a hit reg issue, you picked one where you missed an incredible number and times and the shots you did hit were with laser wash or 1 UAC shot, and it was spread everywhere from the left arm, leg, other leg, and side torsos. Then when you shut down someone finally kills the stupid thing by hitting it where you should, a full burn onto a leg.

That isn't a Firestarter issue, or hit reg issue. That's an aim issue.

[Quxudica]

Petard, on 02 April 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Soooo, are you trying to say firing other weapons when your crosshair is over the target takes MORE skill?... Meh, indeed.... Just for the record, I use all weapon types, and hit stuff with all of em, interestingly enough, my hit percentage is higher with lasers than streaks, go figure...

Streaks are literally 100% chance to hit weapons if you aren't shooting them into the ground or buildings. Way way back there was a time you could actually evade them if you were skilled enough as a pilot but no longer. Yes, it takes more skill to hit a target effectively with any other non-lock on weapon in the game. You have to lead your target, you have to choose what location to target, then steady your reticule over the spot you want to hit and you of course have to actually be looking at them.

With target retention you can spend the majority of your time in a streakboat simply twisting and or jumping to spread damage, since the only thing you need worry about for retaliation is waving that circle over that square every couple seconds. Even pulse lasers take more effort, they may deliver the damage via hitscan but you still have to aim for yourself, whereas missiles only require a red circle and nothing obstructing their flight path. I've killed targets that were out of my field of view and behind me using streaks, I can only assume they shot out of the ass end of my launchers, something no other weapon can achieve.

So yes the skill ceiling for using something like streaks is the lowest in the game, there are no special weapon specific things you need to learn. The key element to learning to use streaks well, positioning and torso twisting, applies to every other brawling set up in the game only those loadouts require additional skills be learned in regards to aiming and sub target selection. The only really "advanced" (that is a trick learned via experience using them) skill to be learned with streaks is that you want to fire with a height advantage if you can to avoid them hitting legs on larger mechs (this is much less important these days, since they no longer tend to hit that waist line).

I've posted my extreme distaste for both LRMs and SRMs since closed beta, I find their implementation lazy and a waste of what could be interesting weapon systems. There is so much more depth you could have from both, but no we just get a mini game on our hud. The way lock on works is also why these two weapons (especially LRMs) have almost certainly received by far the most balance passes of any weapon system in MWO.

Also, like I said standard SRMs aren't supposed to be tracking missiles (possibly limited tracking with NARC on the target, I don't remember) and even the non-standard ones with limited tracking ability should actually be larger missiles than standard srms, meaning you should be getting about 50% per ton with those. SSRMs should at their base, function exactly like SRMs: You lead the moving target slightly with your aim, you fire and it hits or if you would miss you are prevented from firing. That might be hard to implement, I don't know I'm not a programmer, but the current way they work is just so.. lazy and to be honest pretty imbalanced. They aren't the OP nightmare they were long long ago, but any weapon that effectively removes the players ability to aim as a factor is one thats badly designed in my mind.

[ShinVector]

Adiuvo, on 02 April 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

That isn't a Firestarter issue, or hit reg issue. That's an aim issue.

Well this one left me a bit puzzled or there is a possibility that overheat shutdown can cause temporarily hit box desyncs.
Or at least 3 hit were getting false negatives from the red cross hair indicator.