263 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

You say that it would help a lot against light mechs to not have a minimum range on PPCs, but what you fail to see is it would help too much against mechs that are already squishy

I said it would help light mechs with using PPCs, not against them. Well, take that back, it would help lights/mediums who use PPCs against other lights/mediums since those are really the only mechs that often get within minimum range, so in a way it would help combat light mechs, but it helps the slower lights/mediums more than it does assaults and maybe some heavies since those are typically are done in by poor agility more so than minimum range.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

It's "artificially lowered" for good reason, and it only minimizes the effect of gunnery skill if you fail to be a threat before they close in and if your piloting skill is also lacking.

Once again you dislocate (there is a better word I'm thinking of) the blame when no other mid-long range weapon suffers the artificial loss of DPS, it is not a conditional loss of DPS I guess is a good way to put it. Other mid-long range weapons can deal damage to the target to weaken it AND finish it off once it gets within that "dead zone." So the question is, does the PPC justify such a means for such a way of balancing.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

It may not become an "uber god weapon" without a minimum range but that's not the only time people should be concerned about imbalance either and that's not much of an argument either.

Even outside the minimum range, the weapon is lackluster so the balance outside of that range does not justify its worthlessness inside that range either.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

I don't really acknowledge the ER PPC in this regard because it's the exception to prove the rule due to its massively increased heat; it might as well have the drawbacks of requiring ammo because it runs so damn hot and that's why I absentmindedly dismiss its existence as another high damage pinpoint energy weapon.

I would agree the ERPPC generates to high of heat for what it is, but that still doesn't mean it doesn't meet the qualifications. The TDR-9S proved that it can't be a very powerful weapon at all ranges, all it takes is a decrease to its heat and suddenly it is a powerful weapon at all ranges. Give it enough heat though and suddenly it becomes relegated to a certain range that allows for weapons to get away with being less heat efficient. You don't need minimum range to balance them, just the Goldilocks amount of heat.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

So what I'm getting from this is that despite their lower tonnage and crit slots PPCs are better for sustainability unless you get to the point where you boat so many that the heat is too much and you have to supplement your alpha with gauss rifles to go further, meanwhile this situation only happens with 1 mech in the entire game.

Sustainability isn't as big of an issue in anything other than CW though. More than one mech mounts more Gauss in place of more PPCs, as pretty much all IS assaults do this outside the occasional 4 PPC Awesome/Stalker. Most would prefer to mount an AC20 in place of the extra PPCs because of the efficiency increase. If an assault outside the KGC could mount 2 AC10s you would probably see that combo in place of the 2 extra PPCs as well.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

I would rather see PPC and gauss retain their flavor as is than to see a ballistic gauss rifle and a pseudo energy gauss rifle clone.

Well if any weapon made more since to have a charge up for flavor reasons it is the PPC since I believe there are more fluff surrounding charging PPCs than there are Gauss. Gauss just got charge up first because it was deemed unacceptable to give it any extra heat.

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

I don't feel cheated because if I boat a weapon that's weak in (very) close range and lose due to its weakness because that's my fault.

Having lower DPS in general is alone a solid enough weakness to give pause to any boat provided there are maps that provide decent enough terrain to allow brawls (which non-alpine maps do). The problem is that rather than just lowering its overall DPS which would sufficiently stop it from being useful in a brawl they added the minimum range which means it plays (in a bad way) a little bit differently than other weapons. I don't mind it being weak up close thanks to having a lower alpha/dps than a brawler should.

I think I've exhausted my ability to write more "essay" length responses though , so I don't think I'll derail the thread with any more issues with minimum range (since I started it) even if you still don't agree so continue to break apart my argument . These are my last words on the matter.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Age doesn't really matter if the game mechanics are similar enough. The real difference between the two is graphics and some physics, it's not like some magical game mechanic has suddenly been made possible.

Also why don't you go into further detail about how MW4:HC was unbalanced, because once again you are just making blanket statements.

Alright...you want to know how it was not balanced?

Here you go then...

MW4 in all forms, even the later mektek packs, was unbalanced because:

-Assault mechs had no downside outside of less speed (minor)

-There was no incentive to take anything less than an assault mech

-Jump sniping was king, and reigned supreme the entire time

-Gauss/PPC/ERPPC and later ERPPC + Cap were always OP and undifferentiated (if you knew what you were doing with IS you never took ERPPCs)

-Mixed Tech

-Unrealistic omni-construction rules, and no real omni pods

-There was no economy balance

-Mobility was a non-issue for larger mechs

-Non-JJ mechs were inferior outright to JJ mechs

-LRMs were complete garbage

-Streaks were completely OP

-Some mechs had borked hitboxes

-Weapon damages were often disproportionate

-Heat system was unbalanced

-ECM was worthless

-Weapon boating was a problem

-Lights were a joke

-Mediums were a joke unless jump snipers

-Heavies were mostly a joke unless jump snipers

-Some mechs had JJs that should not have had them

-There was no difference between STD and XL engine mechs in durability


I am sure I could think up some more if I wanted to track down my original CDs and reinstall the game...

Edited by Gyrok, 02 April 2015 - 06:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Soy, on 02 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Are some people in this thread actually advocating a charge mechanic on PPC? If so plox walk off nearest cliff, thx.

I kinda used to, but I'd rather not have the mechanic EVER. I would take an extended cooldown than charging... by far... even if you have to use MW4's Clan Gauss Rifle cooldown value (it was like 8 seconds IIRC).

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

Yeah, so PGI's answer? just leave them absolutely useless so no one uses them.

TBH, their answer is to force you to use the mechs that have said quirks. Still.. w/o the quirks, most people don't touch the weapons.

It is what it is. Leaving things bad or mediocre is a feature.

[Pjwned]

XX Sulla XX, on 02 April 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Here is the thing with PPCs. PPCs have caused the biggest problems with the game. If PPCs work really well with good velocity and heat etc then you get game play problems. You start to get the long range game meta instead of mid range like we have now. That hurts the game. If jump jets are decent at all you start getting jump sniping dominating. You get really high pin point front loaded damage. These thing hurt game play for 98% of the population.

You have to be VERY VERY careful adjusting PPCs.

That's why I only want to see ER PPC velocity increased and not PPC velocity, or if PPC velocity is increased again then only a small amount.

As far as jump jets however, them "being decent at all" implying the return of jump sniping meta is wrong, there were a number of reasons pop-tarting was unbalanced and all of them were addressed pretty thoroughly and fairly for the most part. Unfortunately, what that meant is jumpjets being pieces of crap for a lot of mechs now, and that was and still is going a bit too far because they need to have some actually decent performance or else why bother bringing them, especially when you have something like a Heavy Metal with 10 tons of jumpjets and you're lucky if you can even climb the terrain in Canyon Network with it.

[Summon3r]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

It would be nice if you didn't leave out the tonnage and range advantage that clan ACs have, but that would mean not being a clan apologist I guess. I also see that all of those ACs have higher velocity than their IS counterparts, even if it's not by much.

i would trade any and all advantages the clan uacs have over IS ac/uacs in terms or tonnage crits and velocity for a single shell any day of the week and a million times on sunday. for real.

point is the clans have guass and thats it for flppd, if the cerppc even did 13 dmg flat out that would be nice.... regardless of anything i still think all ppc's need 1500ms minimum velocity

[Novawrecker]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

2-3 Medium Lasers isn't going to stop a Firestarter from making short work of you inside that range, but 2 PPCs that had no minimum range and 2-3 extra DHS would certainly help.

Your logic was already spotty previously. This statement safely pushes you in to "Does not Compute" territory. Med. Lasers are not your only viable option here. Honestly, you're trying to wish REALLY hard for PPCs into the be-all, end-all weapon. Sorry, even with min range removed, it still won't be that magic chetoh weapon you desire it to be.

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

If that is all that is stopping the ERPPC from becoming a forgotten weapon, something tells me there is probably more problems with the ERPPC that just its lack of minimum range.

Yep, it's called "15 heat generation"

Edited by Novawrecker, 02 April 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Summon3r, on 02 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

i would trade any and all advantages the clan uacs have over IS ac/uacs in terms or tonnage crits and velocity for a single shell any day of the week and a million times on sunday. for real.

point is the clans have guass and thats it for flppd, if the cerppc even did 13 dmg flat out that would be nice.... regardless of anything i still think all ppc's need 1500ms minimum velocity

Lol, amen on the AC thing. PPCs would be fine with 1300ms. Right about at the point where you wish it had a touch more, but its enough to work? Yeah....1300 would be good.

And yes, even 13 dmg would be amazing, they can drop the extra 2 points, just give the 13/15 CERPPC, 1200ms....yes sir.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I am not in favor of increasing the speed of PPCs without other changes to prevent the return of the poptart.

Hover jets were not the end of poptarting, the velocity slowdown was. So, if reticle shake is added to the entire duration of a jump, I would reluctantly agree to a speed increase.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Assault mechs had no downside outside of less speed (minor)
-There was no incentive to take anything less than an assault mech

That's why any league had tonnage limits, though Arrow + Narc was insanely powerful against assaults, it just required a good pair of narcers and the right map.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Mixed Tech

Depends on the league/server you played in.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-There was no economy balance

This isn't a balancing mechanic...

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Lights were a joke
-Mediums were a joke unless jump snipers
-Gauss/PPC/ERPPC and later ERPPC + Cap were always OP and undifferentiated (if you knew what you were doing with IS you never took ERPPCs)
-Jump sniping was king, and reigned supreme the entire time
-Heat system was unbalanced
-Mobility was a non-issue for larger mechs
-Non-JJ mechs were inferior outright to JJ mechs
-LRMs were complete garbage
-Streaks were completely OP
-Some mechs had borked hitboxes
-Weapon damages were often disproportionate

All these depend on the mod as there was a significant contrast between the mods on some of these issues.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-ECM was worthless

In the mekpak mods, yes. In HC where electronic superiority was valuable, no. ECM, BAP, and JJs made the SCat B the perfect scout that it was, without the ECM it would've been a weaker SCat Prime.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Weapon boating was a problem

And MWO is any different? Alright this one was somewhat valid, but sized hardpoints particularly the ones in HC helped mitigate that problem. 2 AC20 heavies were non-existent in that mod and 4 PPC mechs weren't as dangerous as 2 PPC/2 Gauss mechs.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Heavies were mostly a joke unless jump snipers

You obviously never played HC where the later year in a half of the league was dominated by Timber Wolf B's with UAC5s or Hellfires which had the largest alpha of any heavy mech and was a landpig 60 tonner.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-Unrealistic omni-construction rules, and no real omni pods
-Some mechs had JJs that should not have had them

A problem with canon, yes. A balance problem, not necessarily.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

-There was no difference between STD and XL engine mechs in durability

Wrong, STD engines had double the torso internals that XLs did (I believe even in MPx), the HC mod gave the STD engines 50% higher heat capacity on top of that.

Sounds like to me, you never actually played MW4-HC and just assume it is just a copy of MPx. Not to mention the fact you think Gauss/PPC/SSRMs were overpowered shows how little you played MW4 at the highest tier of FFP/LH/LA/Pure Tech where the green/red/yellow lasers and light gauss were king.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Did some quick TG tests on various damage numbers...

FOr the CERPPC at 10 dmg against the CT of the Cent and AWS on River city...
10dmg: 12 hit and 7 hits
13dmg: 10 hits and 6 hits
14dmg: 9 hits and 5 hits
15dmg 9 hits and 5 hits

So, a slight damage increase wouldnt really OP the PPC, nor make it so amazingly much better then 10, but it would make it alot more appealing and useable overall. Pair it with a slight velocity boost and we have ourselves a perfectly fine weapon. 13/15, 4.25s CD.

[Yokaiko]

Rouken, on 02 April 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

I am not in favor of increasing the speed of PPCs without other changes to prevent the return of the poptart.

Hover jets were not the end of poptarting, the velocity slowdown was. So, if reticle shake is added to the entire duration of a jump, I would reluctantly agree to a speed increase.

No really, no being able to jump at ALL on larger mechs is pretty killer, oh and the added heat (same nerf) doesn't help, there is a jumping heat quirked Blackjack, run all four JJs and it actually feels close to right, till you realize you basically never cool down jumping around.

Add this up for heavies and assaults that need longer burns to clear terrain AND the fact that if you manage to get to the mech's height you have NO fuel left (grab a 5 class 1 Heavy Metal and try it) you end up taking the heat, the leg damage AND a pile of return fire while you sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly "jump" to apogee.

...not to mention lol, I didn't know that people were so traumatized by jumping mechs lol.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

No really, no being able to jump at ALL on larger mechs is pretty killer, oh and the added heat (same nerf) doesn't help, there is a jumping heat quirked Blackjack, run all four JJs and it actually feels close to right, till you realize you basically never cool down jumping around.

Add this up for heavies and assaults that need longer burns to clear terrain AND the fact that if you manage to get to the mech's height you have NO fuel left (grab a 5 class 1 Heavy Metal and try it) you end up taking the heat, the leg damage AND a pile of return fire while you sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly "jump" to apogee.

...not to mention lol, I didn't know that people were so traumatized by jumping mechs lol.

Yeah, even if PGI put PPCs at 1500 tomorrow, the rebirth of the poptart would not happen, JJ are very weak overall now.

[Yokaiko]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yeah, even if PGI put PPCs at 1500 tomorrow, the rebirth of the poptart would not happen, JJ are very weak a waste of tonnage over medium now.

FTFY

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

I said it would help light mechs with using PPCs, not against them. Well, take that back, it would help lights/mediums who use PPCs against other lights/mediums since those are really the only mechs that often get within minimum range, so in a way it would help combat light mechs, but it helps the slower lights/mediums more than it does assaults and maybe some heavies since those are typically are done in by poor agility more so than minimum range.

Fair enough, though I still stand by what I said about PPCs being too dominant against faster mechs with no minimum range.

Quote

Once again you dislocate (there is a better word I'm thinking of) the blame when no other mid-long range weapon suffers the artificial loss of DPS, it is not a conditional loss of DPS I guess is a good way to put it. Other mid-long range weapons can deal damage to the target to weaken it AND finish it off once it gets within that "dead zone." So the question is, does the PPC justify such a means for such a way of balancing.

Lasers can't finish off a mech in such close range as easily as a PPC would with no minimum range, and autocannons are balanced by other factors such as ammo and high tonnage.

Quote

Even outside the minimum range, the weapon is lackluster so the balance outside of that range does not justify its worthlessness inside that range either.

Then make it a bit more appealing in the ranges it's made for if it really is so lackluster instead of screwing around with limitations that are there for good reason.

Quote

I would agree the ERPPC generates to high of heat for what it is, but that still doesn't mean it doesn't meet the qualifications. The TDR-9S proved that it can't be a very powerful weapon at all ranges, all it takes is a decrease to its heat and suddenly it is a powerful weapon at all ranges. Give it enough heat though and suddenly it becomes relegated to a certain range that allows for weapons to get away with being less heat efficient. You don't need minimum range to balance them, just the Goldilocks amount of heat.

I would rather see the ER PPC be worth using at its current heat than to see the heat be lowered, and by drastically increasing its velocity to make it a high damage high range pinpoint energy weapon that reliably hits due to fast projectiles I think that would make it worth the 15 heat in addition to giving it a good niche.

Quote

Sustainability isn't as big of an issue in anything other than CW though. More than one mech mounts more Gauss in place of more PPCs, as pretty much all IS assaults do this outside the occasional 4 PPC Awesome/Stalker. Most would prefer to mount an AC20 in place of the extra PPCs because of the efficiency increase. If an assault outside the KGC could mount 2 AC10s you would probably see that combo in place of the 2 extra PPCs as well.

That has more to do with the pretty much non-existent heat of gauss rifles which makes it a solid weapon to complement others that run much hotter and also tend to be more sustainable. The gauss rifle's sustainability is still an issue though unless you bring a lot of ammo (which means a lot of tonnage since its ammo per tonnage is not great) or plan on not lasting very long, or I guess you could also use the gauss rifle sparingly but then what's the point of that.

Quote

Well if any weapon made more since to have a charge up for flavor reasons it is the PPC since I believe there are more fluff surrounding charging PPCs than there are Gauss. Gauss just got charge up first because it was deemed unacceptable to give it any extra heat.

Seems to me it makes more sense to avoid doing something like giving gauss rifles extra heat because if you take that away then it becomes a piece of crap largely.

Quote

Having lower DPS in general is alone a solid enough weakness to give pause to any boat provided there are maps that provide decent enough terrain to allow brawls (which non-alpine maps do).

The lower DPS boats make up for their lower DPS with alpha strike damage.

Quote

The problem is that rather than just lowering its overall DPS which would sufficiently stop it from being useful in a brawl they added the minimum range which means it plays (in a bad way) a little bit differently than other weapons. I don't mind it being weak up close thanks to having a lower alpha/dps than a brawler should.

How low would its DPS need to be in order to justify no minimum range? If you ask me, the answer would be "unacceptably low." Its DPS per ton is already pretty low compared to brawler builds, should it be even lower just so there's no minimum range penalty?

Quote

I think I've exhausted my ability to write more "essay" length responses though , so I don't think I'll derail the thread with any more issues with minimum range (since I started it) even if you still don't agree so continue to break apart my argument . These are my last words on the matter.

I don't see how discussing PPC minimum range in a PPC thread is derailing it, but okay.

[Lightfoot]

MercJ, on 02 April 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

They really need to rethink more than velocity and heat.

They need to redo the entire mechanic of the weapon.

It should not be an "energy ballistic" - an ammo-less AC/10. No wonder they have such trouble balancing it (the Gauss/PPC poptarts, the AC/5/PPC era etc. etc. etc...). It's a "Particle Projection Cannon", right? Make it something DIFFERENT!

If anything, make it a lightning strike or something. I've always thought the PPCs should have gotten the charge mechanic and kept their velocity... I seem to remember it always being described as a particle shotgun - not that it needs to be an energy LBX, but why not change how the weapon works instead of trying to find a perfect ratio of velocity/heat? There are OTHER ways to balance....(we've seen how scale can affect the viability of certain mechs and how hitboxes play a part, etc.).

I think a little "outside the box" thinking would do wonders for making the PPC an interesting and fair weapon to use.

"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy. As such, despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannon; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor. Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors. The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

But it is a projectile. It pays for it's accuracy and damage with tonnage and heat and minimum range. Just the PPC requires 5-7 DHS to operate without shutting down the mech all the time. What PGI nerfed was the players who had the skills to run them and not shut down and work the minimum range. PGI said they wanted to increase brawling and pulling the PPC out of MWO did this since Laser accuracy shoots up at brawling range. That's why I say it's a dead issue, even though I think the slow-mo PPCs are stupid.

[Pjwned]

Summon3r, on 02 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

i would trade any and all advantages the clan uacs have over IS ac/uacs in terms or tonnage crits and velocity for a single shell any day of the week and a million times on sunday. for real.

That doesn't dismiss clan ACs from having their own advantages so if somebody posts some misleading comparison I'm going to call bullshit.

Quote

point is the clans have guass and thats it for flppd, if the cerppc even did 13 dmg flat out that would be nice.... regardless of anything i still think all ppc's need 1500ms minimum velocity

Just because C-ER PPC doesn't do 15 pinpoint damage on 1 component doesn't disqualify it from PPFLD, and also hell no to regular PPCs with 1500 m/s velocity since that's what it was before and it was reduced for a good reason; ER PPCs on the other hand can have that much velocity since they run so hot.

[Wildstreak]

Standard PPCs, make the Disable Field Inhibitor a Weapon Module.

[MischiefSC]

If PPC speed is anything like AC5 speed, you get the PPC/ERPP+AC5 meta back. Instantly.

If ERPPC speed is high enough to make them extremely accurate at 500m+, they replace lasers. Instantly, because PPFLD > DoT.

We already did this. With the Thudders. The moment you make PPCs a viable primary weapon they obsolete every other weapon, because 400-800m PPFLD that's 1000m/s+ accurate > anything and everything else. That's why AC5s are the favored AC, not AC10s or 20s. Range and accuracy. So much so that it's worth taking 22 tons of weapon + ammo. The moment you provide something comparable for 7 tons and 3 crits, even if it's slower firing and more heat, you just put the ultimate best weapon in the game.

I get the desire to have an ultimate PPFLD long range unlimited ammo weapon that will work on any size of mech from lights to assaults and can be boated on nearly anything, but we've already done it. Repeatedly, in several different ways.

Because of the advantage of PPFLD and high accuracy PPC (and gauss) need to be kept to a niche or they invalidate every other weapon. Like they have every time they didn't have limitations keeping them largely in a niche.

[MischiefSC]

Hey, I got an idea. Let's give SRMs and LRMs a blast radius, so their damage crosses multiple hitboxes on the same target. Admittedly this will make missiles do absolutely stupid amounts of damage but don't worry - we can prevent the return of the Splatapult (now upgraded to CLAMMER SUPER SPLATTER WOLF/DOG) by giving all missiles an extra 0.5 or even 1 second cooldown! Then it wouldn't be the exact same completely broken and borked thing we had before. TOTALLY.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

That's why any league had tonnage limits, though Arrow + Narc was insanely powerful against assaults, it just required a good pair of narcers and the right map.


Depends on the league/server you played in.


This isn't a balancing mechanic...


All these depend on the mod as there was a significant contrast between the mods on some of these issues.


In the mekpak mods, yes. In HC where electronic superiority was valuable, no. ECM, BAP, and JJs made the SCat B the perfect scout that it was, without the ECM it would've been a weaker SCat Prime.



And MWO is any different? Alright this one was somewhat valid, but sized hardpoints particularly the ones in HC helped mitigate that problem. 2 AC20 heavies were non-existent in that mod and 4 PPC mechs weren't as dangerous as 2 PPC/2 Gauss mechs.


You obviously never played HC where the later year in a half of the league was dominated by Timber Wolf B's with UAC5s or Hellfires which had the largest alpha of any heavy mech and was a landpig 60 tonner.


A problem with canon, yes. A balance problem, not necessarily.


Wrong, STD engines had double the torso internals that XLs did (I believe even in MPx), the HC mod gave the STD engines 50% higher heat capacity on top of that.

Sounds like to me, you never actually played MW4-HC and just assume it is just a copy of MPx. Not to mention the fact you think Gauss/PPC/SSRMs were overpowered shows how little you played MW4 at the highest tier of FFP/LH/LA/Pure Tech where the green/red/yellow lasers and light gauss were king.

If you are relying on league rules or mods to balance the game, then my argument is already made for me.