263 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Your logic was the minimum range was necessary a trade-off for being a unique PPFLD damage energy weapon. I proved that the ERPPC is another PPFLD energy weapon, and lacks minimum range so obviously the minimum range is not necessary to balance it against ammo based PPFLD weapons. That is the key, not necessary. So yes, the PPCs can have no minimum range and still be balanced against ammo based PPFLD weapons, it just needs heat to be enough to counter balance.

Even if its min range was removed, its heat is enough to balance it vs other ammo based PPFLD. Quirks would just need to be toned down on it.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Your logic was the minimum range was necessary a trade-off for being a unique PPFLD damage energy weapon. I proved that the ERPPC is another PPFLD energy weapon, and lacks minimum range so obviously the minimum range is not necessary to balance it against ammo based PPFLD weapons. That is the key, not necessary. So yes, the PPCs can have no minimum range and still be balanced against ammo based PPFLD weapons, it just needs heat to be enough to counter balance.

If the STD PPC was the same damage, with no minimum range cut off, for less heat, only slightly slower than the ERPPC, then no one would ever use the ERPPC. The STD PPC would completely obsolete it in every situation.

That is why PGI has emphatically stated that there will never come a time where the STD PPC will not have a hard minimum range.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Except that the damage to heat on the CERML is the worst in the game next to the 3 weapons in the PPC family...



a single 62 pt alpha will not over heat you, then burn your cool shot and alternate your 20s

Come on, 1 ton, 7 damage, 6 heat, 405 m compared to 5 ton, 9 damage, 7 heat, 450 m?? It is incredible useful to have that one ton weapon, which you can combine with Gauss or more lasers.


Dude I would take the dual gauss dire with 4 cERMLs, 2 cLPLs over that crab any day. 84 damage at 405m and you can almost alpha twice without waiting. But let's get back to PPCs.

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

If the STD PPC was the same damage, with no minimum range cut off, for less heat, only slightly slower than the ERPPC, then no one would ever use the ERPPC. The STD PPC would completely obsolete it in every situation.

That is why PGI has emphatically stated that there will never come a time where the STD PPC will not have a hard minimum range.

Well, there was a time, but that time is over.

[Ultimax]

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

CERML, yeah, it might be the one gold nugget in a large field of ****. Not to say Clan Lasers are absolute trash

Your post.




Requires infinite facepalm.

[JohnnyWayne]

I don't see the issue. Buff speed for ((C))ER)PPCs to 2000 m/s, maybe less heat on ERs and as soon as a single Gauss is mounted on that mech the speed drops to 1000 m/s.

As long as PPCs in independent use are viable again I'm statisifed.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Come on, 1 ton, 7 damage, 6 heat, 405 m compared to 5 ton, 9 damage, 7 heat, 450 m?? It is incredible useful to have that one ton weapon, which you can combine with Gauss or more lasers.


Dude I would take the dual gauss dire with 4 cERMLs, 2 cLPLs over that crab any day. 84 damage at 405m and you can almost alpha twice without waiting. But let's get back to PPCs.

You completely ignored the entire point I made.

Let me reiterate:

The CERML has the worst damage to heat ratio in the entire game behind only the 3 weapons discussed in this thread (i.e. the PPC family of weapons are the only hotter weapons per point of damage in the whole game)

Davers, on 02 April 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Well, there was a time, but that time is over.

I seriously hope not.

Edited by Gyrok, 02 April 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

If the STD PPC was the same damage, with no minimum range cut off, for less heat, only slightly slower than the ERPPC, then no one would ever use the ERPPC. The STD PPC would completely obsolete it in every situation.

That is why PGI has emphatically stated that there will never come a time where the STD PPC will not have a hard minimum range.

Interesting how you neglected the range difference; regardless I've played in a game/mod where the IS PPC/ERPPC were balanced decently so saying this in bold/italics and quoting PGI doesn't exactly prove your point nor does it make any sense.

[Gas Guzzler]

JohnnyWayne, on 02 April 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

I don't see the issue. Buff speed for ((C))ER)PPCs to 2000 m/s, maybe less heat on ERs and as soon as a single Gauss is mounted on that mech the speed drops to 1000 m/s.

Lolno? I like the negative cER PPC velocity quirks on the Dire Wolf better.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Interesting how you neglected the range difference; regardless I've played in a game/mod where the IS PPC/ERPPC were balanced decently so saying this in bold/italics and quoting PGI doesn't exactly prove your point nor does it make any sense.

Ignoring logic and truth does not make your argument any less invalid.

EDIT: I neglected range, because in this game, there is not a point in paying 5 heat for an extra 200m+ range and the same damage for less total DPS overall. Especially when we consider that 98% of engagements will occur inside the 600m effective range of the STD PPC after range modules.

Edited by Gyrok, 02 April 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Lolno? I like the negative cER PPC velocity quirks on the Dire Wolf better.

what? What are you talking about? The issue is the gauss / PPC thing. Seems like PPC + AC5s is ok nowadays so we are literally discussing this issue.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 02 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

The CERML has the worst damage to heat ratio in the entire game behind only the 3 weapons discussed in this thread (i.e. the PPC family of weapons are the only hotter weapons per point of damage in the whole game)

You also forget that you get 10 DHS for free which significantly counteract that poor damage to heat ratio. Suggesting that the heat to damage ratio is sole proof the C-ERML is a bad weapon only signifies how little you understand good build practices.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Ignoring logic and truth does not make your argument any less invalid.

You can state it as "truth" all you want but is an empty word if you have no proof. I have proof that they can co-exist in a balanced fashion with MW4-HC, where's your counter proof?

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Pjwned]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

It is still a hard counter regardless of the range, it means anything within that range no amount of skill can overcome as far as gunnery goes. That is just bad design, and I would say the same thing about LRMs if I didn't think they need a redesign to begin with.

Overcome it with piloting skill if it's such a problem, gunnery skill isn't everything.

Quote

You also ignore that NO OTHER non-missile weapon needs support weapons and have failed to present a reasonable argument for this fact, other than deal with it or use other weapons.

I already said that's because it's a high damage pinpoint energy weapon, and my statement about dealing with it and/or bringing some backup weapons still applies.

Quote

Your logic was the minimum range was necessary a trade-off for being a unique PPFLD damage energy weapon. I proved that the ERPPC is another PPFLD energy weapon, and lacks minimum range so obviously the minimum range is not necessary to balance it against ammo based PPFLD weapons. That is the key, not necessary. So yes, the PPCs can have no minimum range and still be balanced against ammo based PPFLD weapons, it just needs heat to be enough to counter balance.

Goalpost moving time, guess I should have been more clear but that's my fault.

PPC is still a unique case because it's a high damage energy pinpoint weapon and it generates much less heat than the ER PPC, so it's fine that ER PPC doesn't have a minimum range (and other benefits) in exchange for a gigantic increase in heat.

What I'm saying is that it's fine for ER PPCs to have no minimum range because the vastly higher heat balances it out, while that's not necessarily true for PPCs, and especially not considering the minimum range is small and overcome easily enough by piloting skill as a result; the only real flaw is that the minimum range penalty is too harsh if you do 0 damage at 89m, and that's it.

Edited by Pjwned, 02 April 2015 - 03:30 PM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

You also forget that you get 10 DHS for free which significantly counteract that poor damage to heat ratio. Suggesting that the heat to damage ratio is sole proof the C-ERML is a bad weapon only signifies how little you understand good build practices.


You can state it as "truth" all you want but is an empty word if you have no proof. I have proof that they can co-exist in a balanced fashion with MW4-HC, where's your counter proof?

You are the one arguing the STD PPC does not need a minimum range to be different from the ERPPC and have the stones to tell me I do not understand build practices?

WTF?

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

You completely ignored the entire point I made.

Let me reiterate:

The CERML has the worst damage to heat ratio in the entire game behind only the 3 weapons discussed in this thread (i.e. the PPC family of weapons are the only hotter weapons per point of damage in the whole game)

I believe it also has the highest range per ton (ignoring LRM garbage), and 3rd highest damage per ton (behind cERSML and cSRMs). So..

JohnnyWayne, on 02 April 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

what? What are you talking about? The issue is the gauss / PPC thing. Seems like PPC + AC5s is ok nowadays so we are literally discussing this issue.

Dire is the only Mech that can do dual gauss dual PPC, if you reduce ER PPC velocity on that Mech you don't have the 50 pt alpha problem. What you are worried about 35 pts from 2 PPCs and a Gauss? The ac5s are more well rounded and useful. Laser vomit gauss hybrids will still be better then single gauss, dual PPC. 35 damage is just meh, and you still have a 500 m/s velocity disparity and a buttload of heat (have to use ERs) if you are exercising my velocity solution.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 April 2015 - 03:33 PM.

[Gyrok]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 April 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

You also forget that you get 10 DHS for free which significantly counteract that poor damage to heat ratio. Suggesting that the heat to damage ratio is sole proof the C-ERML is a bad weapon only signifies how little you understand good build practices.


You can state it as "truth" all you want but is an empty word if you have no proof. I have proof that they can co-exist in a balanced fashion with MW4-HC, where's your counter proof?

MW4-HC was not even remotely close to balanced, if that is your proof, then you need to drum up something that is at least RELEVANT from this DECADE.

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I seriously hope not.

Yeah, for a time it scaled down in damage down to zero, kind of like CLRMs, but linearly (so at 45m it did 5 damage). But they nixed that early on.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 02 April 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

piloting skill

Piloting skill only overcomes so much when it comes to difference in speed.

Again, it is the only direct fire weapon that has this which I find a little puzzling, so why not increase the heat and remove the minimum range. My poor Vindi would gladly trade extra heat for the ability to actually hit Firestarters that find me an easy kill. You can say "mount backup weapons" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't address the fact certain mechs are hamstrung by this little factor and the fact it is the only weapon that pay this price even when it isn't that great of a weapon anymore is only continues to baffle me.

It did have a linear falloff a long time ago though but was removed somewhere along the lines for whatever reason.

Gyrok, on 02 April 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

MW4-HC was not even remotely close to balanced, if that is your proof, then you need to drum up something that is at least RELEVANT from this DECADE.

Age doesn't really matter if the game mechanics are similar enough. The real difference between the two is graphics and some physics, it's not like some magical game mechanic has suddenly been made possible.

Also why don't you go into further detail about how MW4:HC was unbalanced, because once again you are just making blanket statements.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 April 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[Soy]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Please, explain.

It's too much theorycrafting and numbers in a vacuum for my taste, so.

[Gas Guzzler]

Well, all this IS vs Clan BS aside, it seems the majority want PPCs brought back in line with the other weapons in this game.

Soy, on 02 April 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

It's too much theorycrafting and numbers in a vacuum for my taste, so.

.

Hard numbers aside, do you at least agree some more velocity would be welcome without PPCs becoming "OP"?

Its not really in a vacuum, we all know what 1500 m/s ER PPCs are like (no one used them in quantities of more than one).

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 April 2015 - 03:55 PM.