263 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Except that they did. They always have - right up until they were nerfed enough to make lasers viable again.

This isn't some rampant speculation. It's not some wild guess. That ridiculous over-exaggeration is exactly what you're talking about.

Can PPCs/ERPPc stand a little buffing up? A hair or two? Sure. However we've already had speed 1k+ PPCs/ERPPCs. They sync with AC5s and are accurate at range and the heat is manageable when you're consistently accurate with them. You don't need that many shots.

We've already done this. Already had it, already played it. It's bad and it's broken.

Deathlike covered this pretty effectively above.

Heat to damage is easily manageable (like it was with PPCs/ERPPCs for 18 months after the heat was raised to current levels) when you've got PPFLD - you put 30 pts on the enemy CT/LT/RT, fade. Wait 5 seconds. Go back out, do it again. Then a 3rd time and overheat (if need be) because that's probably the killing shot.

This is dramatically more effective in environments like CW when you've got coordinated teams coordinating fire. The only reason we didn't see this due to recent quirks on a few mechs is that those mechs can't run 2xAC5 + 2xPPC/ERPPC.

I dislike any weapon being useless but if you want PPCs to be as viable as lasers they need DoT. 7 tons, 3 slots and unlimited ammo becomes god-tier when combined with PPFLD and high projectile speed. Refire rate, cooldown, these mitigate this a small amount on smaller mechs but when you stack it with ACs it becomes irrelevant - you've got 2xAC5s and then an instant 20 point bump every 5, 6, 8 seconds, whatever your heat allows. You can hit and fade, swing to spread damage whenever and however you want.

We already did it. We already had this. A small change in cooldown, heat, etc. isn't going to make it work different any more than putting SRMs/LRMs back to their broken state would be mitigated by the same thing.

PPC/AC5 is not scary at all in this day of quirked out lasers and clan mechs. 30 damage? Please.

PPC heat is manageable yes. 2 ER PPCs? No way dude. That is also not a wild speculation. ER PPCs have never been the meta. The closest thing is when some would put a Gauss, 1 ER PPC and one PPC on a DS, but if the PPC is at 1100-1200 and the ER PPC is at 1500 m/s they won't sync up very well.

You say we have experienced what I am saying, and yes we have experienced ER PPCs that travel 1500 m/s. How widespread were they? Not at all.

This is not the same game we had a year ago. Lasers are better, LL ghost heat has been removed. Large pulse lasers are awesome. I don't see a simple velocity increase (a minor one at that, for standard PPCs) all of a sudden making the laser vomit meta we have now extinct.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Except that they did. They always have - right up until they were nerfed enough to make lasers viable again.

This isn't some rampant speculation. It's not some wild guess. That ridiculous over-exaggeration is exactly what you're talking about.

Can PPCs/ERPPc stand a little buffing up? A hair or two? Sure. However we've already had speed 1k+ PPCs/ERPPCs. They sync with AC5s and are accurate at range and the heat is manageable when you're consistently accurate with them. You don't need that many shots.

We've already done this. Already had it, already played it. It's bad and it's broken.

Deathlike covered this pretty effectively above.

Well, what I said is a reminder of what's important... everything else is kinda secondary. I spoke with Gas about it and the point is to stir discussion on a weapon that currently is heavily reliant on quirks. This is bad design.

I'm not so concerned as much with PPC+AC5/AC10 interaction... I'm more concerned about laser vomit being the dominant form of attack due to PPCs being completely ineffective unless quirks are involved.

Nerfing PPCs to the ground is not the answer.

In a better balanced game, both laservomit and PPCs should be viable options/alternatives/choices. It used to be PPCs when it was dominant. Lasers didn't suck, but pulse lasers did. Pulse lasers finally stopped sucking, but that's also when PPCs were a non-factor. So, clearly there is work to be done.

Quote

Heat to damage is easily manageable (like it was with PPCs/ERPPCs for 18 months after the heat was raised to current levels) when you've got PPFLD - you put 30 pts on the enemy CT/LT/RT, fade. Wait 5 seconds. Go back out, do it again. Then a 3rd time and overheat (if need be) because that's probably the killing shot.

This is dramatically more effective in environments like CW when you've got coordinated teams coordinating fire. The only reason we didn't see this due to recent quirks on a few mechs is that those mechs can't run 2xAC5 + 2xPPC/ERPPC.

I dislike any weapon being useless but if you want PPCs to be as viable as lasers they need DoT. 7 tons, 3 slots and unlimited ammo becomes god-tier when combined with PPFLD and high projectile speed. Refire rate, cooldown, these mitigate this a small amount on smaller mechs but when you stack it with ACs it becomes irrelevant - you've got 2xAC5s and then an instant 20 point bump every 5, 6, 8 seconds, whatever your heat allows. You can hit and fade, swing to spread damage whenever and however you want.

We already did it. We already had this. A small change in cooldown, heat, etc. isn't going to make it work different any more than putting SRMs/LRMs back to their broken state would be mitigated by the same thing.

Cooldown should be a factor... at least with something like Gauss (instead of a charge mechanic) where heat is a non-issue. While cooldown isn't too much of a factor in PPC usage, but the handy-ability to make cooldown short makes the "almost guaranteed" use of Coolant to be "useful" in PGI's eyes, which in some ways is kind of broken (alpha+overheat, coolant, refire with alpha again - only done when the sure kill is needed). Even a tweak to increase PPC cooldown to 5 (or even 5.5 or Clan ERPPCs) would help mitigate this behavior a bit. I mean, having seen what 8 heat PPCs that had a cooldown of 3 seconds back in Open Beta... it was hilarious spam. I doubt anyone is asking to go back to some of the "dark ages" of the PPC wars.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Forget about what the damn weapons can be paired with. BUff the damn weapons to a point where they are useable. Who cares if they sync with an AC5, Medium LAsers all sync with each other, deal alot more damage, much better heat and all that and yet those dont get nerfed....laser vomit syncs well with each other and those are fine, and we get 50-60 point alphas...

Deathlike, on 03 April 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Cooldown should be a factor... at least with something like Gauss (instead of a charge mechanic) where heat is a non-issue. While cooldown isn't too much of a factor in PPC usage, but the handy-ability to make cooldown short makes the "almost guaranteed" use of Coolant to be "useful" in PGI's eyes, which in some ways is kind of broken (alpha+overheat, coolant, refire with alpha again - only done when the sure kill is needed). Even a tweak to increase PPC cooldown to 5 (or even 5.5 or Clan ERPPCs) would help mitigate this behavior a bit. I mean, having seen what 8 heat PPCs that had a cooldown of 3 seconds back in Open Beta... it was hilarious spam. I doubt anyone is asking to go back to some of the "dark ages" of the PPC wars.

OMG, with a 5 or 5.5 Cool down, even with velocity and no Damage increases, they would still be garbage, but in a different way. Lasers would still reign ultimate. 4s CD as they are now are absolutely horrific weapons. 5s is for a 15/15 CERPPC, and even then, I would venture to say 4.5s is good enough. Its not like any mech in the game can sustain firing more then 1 ERPPC at a time, while many mechs can fire up to like 3 or 4 lasers multiple times, never mind the lasers are spread, any decent aim and you deal alot more damage.

I am finding LPL to be far more effecitve and not that hard to keep on target...its a big, well, laser, right to the target.....good FPS and keeping it to get the burn isnt hard.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 03 April 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

Holding a gauss rifle charge is different than a firing delay and I can't think of a single example in another game where a delayed fire mechanic didn't make a weapon be complete ****. You also seem to imply that gauss rifles don't already have "some character quirks" with their current charge mechanic, and I'm confused why you would want to remove that.

The Gauss rifle is different only because it doesn't automatically fire at the end of its charge and instead cancels. You still have to account for the delay in calculating your shots. A firing delay with a faster projectile is synonymous with a slow projectile in most cases, but is harder to dodge at long range because you don't get to watch the projectile speeding toward your face. That sounds to me exactly like what the PPC should be all about.

And you can't think of any examples of good game weapons with firing delays? Okay, that's cool, not everybody plays all the video-games. Allow me to provide you with a few examples:

• In Halo 4, we've got a rail gun that fires at the end of its charge and it is amazing in the right hands, killing the target instantly and doing a tiny bit of splash to surrounding enemies. We've also got a pistol-class weapon that fires an instant-kill spread of energy bolts at the end of its charge, and it is similarly devastating when used properly.
  
• In Half-Life: Opposing Force, there is a teleporter gun that is a one-hit kill on most enemies but requires a brief charge up before firing. Its alt-fire teleported the player instead, and was very useful in a bind. There is also a Gauss rifle in the main game with a round that automatically fires at the end of its charge.
  
• In Unreal Tournament, we have rocket and grenade launchers that will automatically fire their full payload after a loading delay and they are some of the best, if not the best, weapons in the game.
  
• In Doom, we have the king of all delayed-fire weapons, the BFG9000.

Now granted my idea may not work at all in practice, or it may just not work at those values, but until it gets tried, none of us can know. I think I have made a fair assessment of its impact, and I think it would be fun. You guys want MWO to have a more in-depth and nuanced simulation aspect instead of continuing its march toward a Hawken-like future? This is how you do it. You introduce grounded and consistent complications that have to be accounted for during play. Even lasers could use some snags of their own, seeing as they also rely on charged capacitor banks to fire.

Quote

And then gauss rifles are unbalanced again, except even more so than they were before.

Gauss rifles are not and have never been balanced. There is no drawback to it, period. It generates no heat, it is usable across the entire spectrum of combat ranges, and it is all but hit-scan. People who half-way know how to shoot already dominate the field with it up close and from afar, second only to mass laser fire. Thus, it's not like having to hold the charge is doing anything for internal game balance as it is. In fact, the very ability to hold that charge without penalty negates its intended effect entirely. How to balance Gauss, though, is discussion for another thread.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

PPC/AC5 is not scary at all in this day of quirked out lasers and clan mechs. 30 damage? Please.

PPC heat is manageable yes. 2 ER PPCs? No way dude. That is also not a wild speculation. ER PPCs have never been the meta. The closest thing is when some would put a Gauss, 1 ER PPC and one PPC on a DS, but if the PPC is at 1100-1200 and the ER PPC is at 1500 m/s they won't sync up very well.

You say we have experienced what I am saying, and yes we have experienced ER PPCs that travel 1500 m/s. How widespread were they? Not at all.

This is not the same game we had a year ago. Lasers are better, LL ghost heat has been removed. Large pulse lasers are awesome. I don't see a simple velocity increase (a minor one at that, for standard PPCs) all of a sudden making the laser vomit meta we have now extinct.

Lasers are almost exactly the same. GH on LLs has been reduced. What changed on LPLs again? Clan LPLs got nerfed. What buff did IS LPLs get?

None.

Quirks helped improve some lasers on some mechs. The rise of Laservomit was a byproduct of how crushingly OP Clan lasers were at release, especially on the TW. People got used to them. They turned to them though because PPCs were no longer deadly accurate at 500m+

The moment PPCs are accurate and effective at 500m+ then lasers will fade back out, because PPFLD > DoT. It's always been that way.

It's not about 30pt alphas. It's about 6+DPS with almost no heat and 20pt PPFLD you can put on open points and sustain all that for a while, also the ability to lean out, put 30pts on a single hit location and fade back in less time than the enemy can do the same to you. It's about PPFLD vs DoT.

Again - all that's changed in quirks for lasers on some mechs and that Clan lasers got nerfed, plus LL cap for IS got increased by 1. That doesn't change why the PPC+AC meta was king for 18 months or why it wouldn't be again.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Lasers are almost exactly the same. GH on LLs has been reduced. What changed on LPLs again? Clan LPLs got nerfed. What buff did IS LPLs get?

None.

Quirks helped improve some lasers on some mechs. The rise of Laservomit was a byproduct of how crushingly OP Clan lasers were at release, especially on the TW. People got used to them. They turned to them though because PPCs were no longer deadly accurate at 500m+

The moment PPCs are accurate and effective at 500m+ then lasers will fade back out, because PPFLD > DoT. It's always been that way.

It's not about 30pt alphas. It's about 6+DPS with almost no heat and 20pt PPFLD you can put on open points and sustain all that for a while, also the ability to lean out, put 30pts on a single hit location and fade back in less time than the enemy can do the same to you. It's about PPFLD vs DoT.

Again - all that's changed in quirks for lasers on some mechs and that Clan lasers got nerfed, plus LL cap for IS got increased by 1. That doesn't change why the PPC+AC meta was king for 18 months or why it wouldn't be again.

That meta was phasing out as soon as the Clan mechs were released. It will not be again just because of a little PPC velocity increase.

LPLs got their heat reduced to the same heat as LLs. They are extremely good.

Most people don't have a problem with DoT, that is why the laser vomit Clan mechs were awesome even before the PPC nerf.

Accurate PPCs at 500m has nothing to do with ER LLs at 800+ m.

I am not even saying bring PPCs to where they were, just help them out a little... seriously.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[kapusta11]

Funny to see people still arguing about nerfing or buffing individual weapons. Wubshee, Timberwolf and Dire Wolf laugh at PPCs. 63 pts short range alpha applied in half a second: 3xLPL AND 5xMPL, 54 long range alpha: 2xLPL AND 4xERML, 84(!) long range alpha: 2xGauss AND 2xLPL AND 4xERML. The problem was and still is weapon combos, or rather the combined damage they deal to single component, PGI tried to address one weapon type boating with Ghost Heat and later with Gauss charge cap but people quickly figured out that you can cheat it by combining weapons that sync well with each other. All who's against PPC buffs should post less on forums and try playing the actual game at least sometimes.

Edited by kapusta11, 03 April 2015 - 10:46 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Make PPC's travel at 3000 M/S reduce gauss speed to about 1000 m/s. Were firing a 1/10 of a ton projectile to do damage, it doesn't need to be fired very fast. This should desync the weapon from all other guns. This game needs fast combat or it becomes a snooze fest of stalkers ridge peaking.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 03 April 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[Novawrecker]

DeathlyEyes, on 03 April 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

This game needs fast combat or it becomes a snooze fest of stalkers ridge peaking.

And here I thought all of you like playing Peek-A-Stalker

[Elizander]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

This is not the same game we had a year ago. Lasers are better, LL ghost heat has been removed. Large pulse lasers are awesome. I don't see a simple velocity increase (a minor one at that, for standard PPCs) all of a sudden making the laser vomit meta we have now extinct.

I don't want the Laser Meta to die out. I just want to be able to use a couple of ER PPCs without feeling like I'm letting my whole team down starting from the mechlab. The opportunity cost for ER PPCs (and PPCs) is just too high right now.

Even AC5s are better. They shoot faster and have less heat, making a miss less punishing compared to an ER PPC miss.

One AC5 with a couple tons of ammo is 10 tons with negligible heat. Getting an ER PPC with 3 DHS won't really compare. The situation is worse when you go 2 AC5s vs 2 ER PPCs.

Edited by Elizander, 04 April 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Novawrecker, on 03 April 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

And here I thought all of you like playing Peek-A-Stalker

Whatever the best gun in the game is, will be most used. If it gets too boring people will quit.

[H I A S]

PPC Vilocity: 1500m/s
(C)ERPPC Vilocity: 2000m/s
JJ vertical Buff
So we have a MW-Game how it should be

[Y E O N N E]

DeathlyEyes, on 03 April 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

Make PPC's travel at 3000 M/S reduce gauss speed to about 1000 m/s. Were firing a 1/10 of a ton projectile to do damage, it doesn't need to be fired very fast. This should desync the weapon from all other guns. This game needs fast combat or it becomes a snooze fest of stalkers ridge peaking.

On the flip side, slow combat provides impetus to strap high-DPS, short-range weapons on lights and other quick 'Mechs to perform fast flanks while those Stalkers are ridge-peeking...

[Mystere]

Currently, PPC disable ECM for a few seconds. Why not also scramble the target's HUD for the same duration or longer?

Why not also increase the target's heat?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

PPC/AC5 is not scary at all in this day of quirked out lasers and clan mechs. 30 damage? Please.

PPC heat is manageable yes. 2 ER PPCs? No way dude. That is also not a wild speculation. ER PPCs have never been the meta. The closest thing is when some would put a Gauss, 1 ER PPC and one PPC on a DS, but if the PPC is at 1100-1200 and the ER PPC is at 1500 m/s they won't sync up very well.

You say we have experienced what I am saying, and yes we have experienced ER PPCs that travel 1500 m/s. How widespread were they? Not at all.

This is not the same game we had a year ago. Lasers are better, LL ghost heat has been removed. Large pulse lasers are awesome. I don't see a simple velocity increase (a minor one at that, for standard PPCs) all of a sudden making the laser vomit meta we have now extinct.

Wasnt PPC/AC5 meta only to get a 15 dmg PPC? CERPPC should be that by default. If that is what PGI is trying ot avoid, they should stop lol.

[Y E O N N E]

It was never one PPC and one AC/5, it was typically two PPCs and at least one AC/5. Sometimes it was two AC/5 and one PPC and, very rarely, it was two PPC and two AC/5. Also the oddball PPC+UAC/5 combinations.

Twin PPC and an AC/5 was also the combination typically used on the lighter 'Mechs that couldn't fit a Gauss with the PPCs, 'Mechs like the Shadowhawk. The VTR9-DS often had AC/5 as well, in place of Gauss. Catapult K2 could generally be found running with two PPCs and any one of the three AC options so far mentioned.

Bottom line, an alpha lower than 25 was not considered effective, and even then 30 was preferable. There was a lot of hubbub on the forums over long range, 30-point alphas being a thing. We now have alphas that are greater than that at similar ranges, but since it's more accessible (lasers are easy), there seems to be less complaining.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 April 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

It was never one PPC and one AC/5, it was typically two PPCs and at least one AC/5. Sometimes it was two AC/5 and one PPC and, very rarely, it was two PPC and two AC/5. Also the oddball PPC+UAC/5 combinations.

Twin PPC and an AC/5 was also the combination typically used on the lighter 'Mechs that couldn't fit a Gauss with the PPCs, 'Mechs like the Shadowhawk. The VTR9-DS often had AC/5 as well, in place of Gauss. Catapult K2 could generally be found running with two PPCs and any one of the three AC options so far mentioned.

Bottom line, an alpha lower than 25 was not considered effective, and even then 30 was preferable. There was a lot of hubbub on the forums over long range, 30-point alphas being a thing. We now have alphas that are greater than that at similar ranges, but since it's more accessible (lasers are easy), there seems to be less complaining.

Lol, how is 25 not considered effective? Its really plenty good enough when you compare the sustainable damage output to the armor on the mechs. Im assuming that PPC/AC combo could basically fire non stop? Or with short pauses....

25 dmg a pop kills an Atlas CT inside of like 6 hits....

Laser vomit easily out does any of that, atleast those builds of PPC/AC you had to aim a little, lasers are hit scan....even now, 1200-1300 velocity PPCs would require good aim, so it wouldnt be that OP at long distances and pop tart meta isnt goin to happen again...so, if just like the Clans, everyone is butt hurt over a passed OPness, they can get over it, move on and let the PPCs be an actually viable weapon in the arsenal again. Quite frankly, CLPL vs CERPPC? Even at 10/12, I would choose the LPL, its far more heat efficient@13/10 and hit scan....even at 13/15, 1300ms, the CLPL would be better, mostly cuz its 13/10 ad hit scan.

[Y E O N N E]

I said anything lower than 25 was not considered effective. And it wasn't, not when all your enemies were sporting a pop-tart meta of 25 or greater. An ER PPC, a regular PPC, and a Gauss was 35 points, every time, on your CT. That was the standard VTR build. The more brawler option replaced the Gauss with two AC/5, adding 3 DPS to the overall build and letting it better defend itself up close.

The meta couldn't fire full-tilt non-stop, but it did ride pretty close with short pauses. It was, honestly, quite good. It still is quite good, you just can't pop-tart and instead have to corner- or ridge-peak. The PP FLD meta is still how I see the more competitive IS units winning in CW. It's PPCs, Gauss, and AC/5s, though not all necessarily combined on a single 'Mech any more. You have ER PPC Thuds providing the main punch, Dragons keeping the enemy in a state of constant disarray with AC/5 fire filling the gaps between PPC volleys, and a couple of Gauss snipers in the back taking shots of opportunity. All of this makes the enemy really hesitant to move, and even a coordinated laser volley is usually a death-sentence to the 'Mechs performing it. There are Wubberbolts and similar kept on tap for close-quarters defense or fast charges, but they are useless unless the enemy closes.

For the record, I am not against a PPC buff. I'm fond of the weapon. That said, I don't want a PPC that behaves like an energy AC, because that's stupid. I'm not against the implementation of mechanics that raise the skill floor, and in fact I welcome it. If the return is to be great, then the investment must also be great in terms of skill and equipment.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

What changed on LPLs again? Clan LPLs got nerfed.

They do 13 points of damage now, you call that a nerf? They're one of the best weapons in the whole game. They roflstomp PPCs and ERPPCs into the ground, no contest.

You're talking about PPCs being effective at 500m being "OP," but the Clan LPL does more damage at 600m optimal range and can extend all the way out to 1200m with no modules or Targeting Computer, with no accuracy issues at all due to being hitscan (point and click).

Let's not forget ER Large Lasers for both factions being pinpoint accurate at even greater distances...

MischiefSC, on 03 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

What buff did IS LPLs get?

Reduced heat and slightly extended range, back in November with the first Quirkening update. Also I think their damage got nudged up slightly, but I don't remember.

[Weeny Machine]

kapusta11, on 03 April 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

Funny to see people still arguing about nerfing or buffing individual weapons. Wubshee, Timberwolf and Dire Wolf laugh at PPCs. 63 pts short range alpha applied in half a second: 3xLPL AND 5xMPL, 54 long range alpha: 2xLPL AND 4xERML, 84(!) long range alpha: 2xGauss AND 2xLPL AND 4xERML. The problem was and still is weapon combos, or rather the combined damage they deal to single component, PGI tried to address one weapon type boating with Ghost Heat and later with Gauss charge cap but people quickly figured out that you can cheat it by combining weapons that sync well with each other. All who's against PPC buffs should post less on forums and try playing the actual game at least sometimes.

Nope, the combos aren't necessarily the problem. Look, in the TT they have a kind of "soft-punishment". That means that you get disadvantages (e.g. movement reduction etc) at a certain heat level. The problem currently is that you get no penalty until you shutdown. Else everyone would be more caustious pumping out huge alphas.

Add to that instant convergence...and well, here we have a problematic mix.