263 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 04 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Reduced heat and slightly extended range, back in November with the first Quirkening update. Also I think their damage got nudged up slightly, but I don't remember.

IS LPL got damage bumped to a full 11 points from 10.6. Range was increased from 350 to 365 meters. Duration was increased from 0.60 seconds to 0.67 seconds. Heat was decreased to 7 points from 8.5.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 04 April 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[Elizander]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

Currently, PPC disable ECM for a few seconds. Why not also scramble the target's HUD for the same duration or longer?

Why not also increase the target's heat?

Actually that disable ECM thing is pointless at close range now with BAP. As for long range? We can't hit them anyway since the projectile is too slow.

I don't think people are worried anymore about the PPC's special effect. We're more worried about it not dealing damage at all.

Edited by Elizander, 04 April 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Mystere]

Elizander, on 04 April 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

Actually that disable ECM thing is pointless at close range now with BAP. As for long range? We can't hit them anyway since the projectile is too slow.

Please speak for yourself. I've been using PPCs ever since they were as slow as molasses.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 April 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

I said anything lower than 25 was not considered effective. And it wasn't, not when all your enemies were sporting a pop-tart meta of 25 or greater. An ER PPC, a regular PPC, and a Gauss was 35 points, every time, on your CT. That was the standard VTR build. The more brawler option replaced the Gauss with two AC/5, adding 3 DPS to the overall build and letting it better defend itself up close.

The meta couldn't fire full-tilt non-stop, but it did ride pretty close with short pauses. It was, honestly, quite good. It still is quite good, you just can't pop-tart and instead have to corner- or ridge-peak. The PP FLD meta is still how I see the more competitive IS units winning in CW. It's PPCs, Gauss, and AC/5s, though not all necessarily combined on a single 'Mech any more. You have ER PPC Thuds providing the main punch, Dragons keeping the enemy in a state of constant disarray with AC/5 fire filling the gaps between PPC volleys, and a couple of Gauss snipers in the back taking shots of opportunity. All of this makes the enemy really hesitant to move, and even a coordinated laser volley is usually a death-sentence to the 'Mechs performing it. There are Wubberbolts and similar kept on tap for close-quarters defense or fast charges, but they are useless unless the enemy closes.

For the record, I am not against a PPC buff. I'm fond of the weapon. That said, I don't want a PPC that behaves like an energy AC, because that's stupid. I'm not against the implementation of mechanics that raise the skill floor, and in fact I welcome it. If the return is to be great, then the investment must also be great in terms of skill and equipment.

THey should start with simply increasing velocity to a useable level, where they are now...it just isnt useable. Sure, you can score hits, but really, they simply suck. If all they ever became was Unlimited ammo ACs with 1200-1300 velocity, I wouldnt complain about the velocity...but the heat/dmg output still needs buffs. THey took all lasers and they now deal more damage for less heat and hit scan, while the PPCs have effectively no velocity for entirely to much heat for the damage caused. I cant see how anyone isnt instantly on the bandwagon to get those things buffed.

You never see them in battle unless its a stock mech who hasnt changed, or a fool who doesnt know the difference...Or, like me, hoping they become good one day and im trying to L2P with them...but they are unplayably bad...

Yeonne Greene, on 04 April 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

IS LPL got damage bumped to a full 11 points from 10.6. Range was increased from 350 to 365 meters. Duration was increased from 0.60 seconds to 0.67 seconds. Heat was decreased to 7 points from 8.5.

And yet PGI feels the need to keep PPCs in the state of useless...Are PGI Laser vomit players or something? Does PPFLD of any kind ruin their game?

[Elizander]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Please speak for yourself. I've been using PPCs ever since they were as slow as molasses.

Anything at really long range can see it coming a mile away and duck.

[Telmasa]

Mystere, on 04 April 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Please speak for yourself. I've been using PPCs ever since they were as slow as molasses.

So have I - just cause we can tryhard doesn't make it an optimal situation.

[Mystere]

Elizander, on 04 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Anything at really long range can see it coming a mile away and duck.

Not if your shooting them from the side or back.

Telmasa, on 04 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

So have I - just cause we can tryhard doesn't make it an optimal situation.

I don't know about you, but I find shooting people in the back with 3 Clan ERPPC shots optimal enough.

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Telmasa, on 04 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

So have I - just cause we can tryhard doesn't make it an optimal situation.

Exactly, PGI needs to stop "balancing" for the tryhards and balance around the average. JUst cuz a 1337 player can make a PPC hit at 800m with its 950m velocity, doesnt mean it should stay that way and its a balanced weapon that doesnt need buffs.



AC5s are far more OP then anything a PPC could ever be.,

2x AC5s? 10dmg, 2 heat, every 1.6s? 1150 velocity
PPC: 10dmg, 10heat, 4s, 950 velocity
ERPPC: 10dmg, 15 heat, 4s, 1050 velocity

AC5 velocity I can kinda work with, done so to fair bit of success. Helps the thing can endlessly fire as well...

[Y E O N N E]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 April 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

THey should start with simply increasing velocity to a useable level, where they are now...it just isnt useable. Sure, you can score hits, but really, they simply suck. If all they ever became was Unlimited ammo ACs with 1200-1300 velocity, I wouldnt complain about the velocity...but the heat/dmg output still needs buffs. THey took all lasers and they now deal more damage for less heat and hit scan, while the PPCs have effectively no velocity for entirely to much heat for the damage caused. I cant see how anyone isnt instantly on the bandwagon to get those things buffed.

You never see them in battle unless its a stock mech who hasnt changed, or a fool who doesnt know the difference...Or, like me, hoping they become good one day and im trying to L2P with them...but they are unplayably bad...

I'm totally for projectile speed and heat buffs on PPCs. Even damage buffs for C-ERPPCs. However, they have to come with a price because the last thing we want is to sustain single-weapon meta-games. I rather like my split-second delayed trigger solution. It makes them harder to use at medium-short ranges where the user is under pressure, but it doesn't really affect long-range shots because, unlike with slow projectiles and no trigger delay, the enemy has no idea when you actually fired and can't easily juke the shot. The best they can do is drive erratic, and there's nothing stopping them from doing that now.

Yes, it makes the weapon harder to learn, but why should that be inherently bad?

I mean, PPCs are supposed to be beam weapons. They fire a stream of protons, and the protons have to be traveling near lightspeed in a dense enough formation to do the kind of damage we see in the game. They are also always depicted as beam weapons in various drawn and computer-rendered media. I wouldn't even be against turning them into super-short-duration beams, provided they have a decent-length spool-up time on triggering and/or other penalties. It's all about fair trade-offs.

Quote

And yet PGI feels the need to keep PPCs in the state of useless...Are PGI Laser vomit players or something? Does PPFLD of any kind ruin their game?

I dunno what PGI wants, but there was a problem with 'Mechs getting two-shot from long range. While not eliminated, I think that phenomenon has been dramatically reduced.

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 April 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

Exactly, PGI needs to stop "balancing" for the tryhards and balance around the average. JUst cuz a 1337 player can make a PPC hit at 800m with its 950m velocity, doesnt mean it should stay that way and its a balanced weapon that doesnt need buffs.



AC5s are far more OP then anything a PPC could ever be.,

2x AC5s? 10dmg, 2 heat, every 1.6s? 1150 velocity
PPC: 10dmg, 10heat, 4s, 950 velocity
ERPPC: 10dmg, 15 heat, 4s, 1050 velocity

AC5 velocity I can kinda work with, done so to fair bit of success. Helps the thing can endlessly fire as well...

AC/5 might feel better because it fires more than twice in the time it takes to fire a PPC round. It's a trick. It's has a higher probability of spreading 10 damage across two locations than the 0% probability of doing so with a PPC. You want to see some crazy PPC magic? Build a BJ-3. Stick the PPC modules on it. Congratulations, you now have a more durable, longer-ranged, and lighter-weight AC/10 BoomJack. That thing fires as fast as an AC/10, does the damage of an AC/10, and has damn near close to the heat of an AC/10. It is an energy AC/10. It's no wonder they nerfed its range back down to standard values for the second quirk pass (it used to reach 792 m). All you had to give up was the ability to hit things below 90 meters with your main gun.

And no, they shouldn't balance around the average. If they do that, then the high-reward weapons that Joe Mediocre can do decent with become god-like in the hands of the best players and people end up back here, on the forums, complaining about OP this, that, and the other. A PPC that any player can pick up and use effectively at 800 meters with little heat is going absolutely crush anything in the hands of good players. We saw it during the pop-tart era. We saw it with the Thud 9S. We still see it with the Thud, though not as dramatically.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 04 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'm totally for projectile speed and heat buffs on PPCs. Even damage buffs for C-ERPPCs. However, they have to come with a price because the last thing we want is to sustain single-weapon meta-games. I rather like my split-second delayed trigger solution. It makes them harder to use at medium-short ranges where the user is under pressure, but it doesn't really affect long-range shots because, unlike with slow projectiles and no trigger delay, the enemy has no idea when you actually fired and can't easily juke the shot. The best they can do is drive erratic, and there's nothing stopping them from doing that now.

Yes, it makes the weapon harder to learn, but why should that be inherently bad?

I mean, PPCs are supposed to be beam weapons. They fire a stream of protons, and the protons have to be traveling near lightspeed in a dense enough formation to do the kind of damage we see in the game. They are also always depicted as beam weapons in various drawn and computer-rendered media. I wouldn't even be against turning them into super-short-duration beams, provided they have a decent-length spool-up time on triggering and/or other penalties. It's all about fair trade-offs.

And no, they shouldn't balance around the average. If they do that, then the high-reward weapons that Joe Mediocre can do decent with become god-like in the hands of the best players and people end up back here, on the forums, complaining about OP this, that, and the other. A PPC that any player can pick up and use effectively at 800 meters with little heat is going absolutely crush anything in the hands of good players. We saw it during the pop-tart era. We saw it with the Thud 9S. We still see it with the Thud, though not as dramatically.

Trigger delay hurts long range shots, cuz at range, you have to be more precise, and needing to guage for even a split second longer fire time increases the chance of missing all the same. Usually at long range, when you want to fire, you need to, any delay and you miss.

Id rather see increases to CD if we see increases to CERPPC damage. If we saw 13/15, I would take a 4.25s CD. Cuz at the end of the day, the 15 heat keeps the weapon from being OP. Sure, you can fire like 4 at long range and shut your self down....but once the enemy gets nearer to you, your just killing yourself. THere will always be troll builds, those should not be the determining factor as to why a weapon is kept in a useless state.

PGI should start with:
PPC: 10/10, 4s CD, 1150ms
ERPPC: 10/12, 4s CD, 1200ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s CD, 1150ms

Then, apply quirks to certain mechs to get more velocity, better CD, and other various quirks to make them decent as a whole, but better on a select few mechs. Some quirks, like the ones on the AWS would need to be lowered from 12.5 to maybe 7.5%, esp on heat.

And a quick beam duration might be an amusing thing to try, like

PPC: 10dmg 0.25s Beam duration
ERPPC: 10dmg 0.4s Beam duration
CERPPC: 13dmg 0.65s Beam duration

but idk...

As for balancing around the top tier players, good players will always be able to make weapons look OP, even if they are not. A Bad player will always make even an OP weapon look terrible. Balancing around an average performance means the vast majority of the players, not the top 10% who are MLG and not the bottom 10% who couldnt beat themselves out of a wet roll of toilet paper....

Right now, PGI has been balancing around the top 10% and their competitve MLG pro builds and tactics. While the tactics were incredibly effective and was likely ruining the overall feel of the game, all its led to is a different meta, while making a few different weapons and equipment items(JJ) obsolete and invalid to even use.

So, rather then tweak the JJ down a few notches at a time, to where players could poptart if they wanted, it wouldnt be as effective through slower JJ regen, slightly less overall JJ juice, harder fall damage, more reticule shake while airborne....rather then what they did.....JJ power: 0% for all mechs, so even mechs who are stuck with 5JJ can barely get off the ground.....

Or the PPC/Gauss/AC5 meta, rather then tweak cool downs, ranges, maybe heat and damage, adding in group limits, PPC/GR/AC cant fire in teh same weapon group....they go with the blanket overnerf and obsoleting move of

PPC Velocity: underhanded medicine ball
ERPPC VElocity: overhanded medicing ball

Damage/heat ratio is absolutely atrocious and not at all worth even firing.

THen they go and buff lasers all to hell, only further obsoleting the PPC. And why? BEcause the DWF could boat 9ERPPC and Guass/PPC builds. Dire Star is a useless build mostly. And while I will not argue one bit, the DUal ERPPC/Guass builds are very damn annoying to face, just making the weapons useless is not the answer. Rather then make the PPC bear the entire brunt of the nerfing, do something to GRs as well....

PPCs velocity from 1500 to 1300
Gauss Rifle velocity, 2000, 1750, increase cool downs, reduce ammo loads to 8 instead of the current 10.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 April 2015 - 02:41 PM.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 04 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

They do 13 points of damage now, you call that a nerf? They're one of the best weapons in the whole game. They roflstomp PPCs and ERPPCs into the ground, no contest.

You're talking about PPCs being effective at 500m being "OP," but the Clan LPL does more damage at 600m optimal range and can extend all the way out to 1200m with no modules or Targeting Computer, with no accuracy issues at all due to being hitscan (point and click).

Let's not forget ER Large Lasers for both factions being pinpoint accurate at even greater distances...



Reduced heat and slightly extended range, back in November with the first Quirkening update. Also I think their damage got nudged up slightly, but I don't remember.

Damage from even pulse lasers spreads most the time unless the target is standing still and often the attacker needs to be as well.

Ballistic PPFLD all hits the same location, every single time. Hill humping or hoverjet poptarting lets that get exploited. The problem currently is that due to different travel times and questionable accuracy (due to lower projectile speed) it's not a reliable enough way to put damage on target to warrant the heat.

Most poptart builds hit heatcap in about 3 shots. It was still optimal.

Clanner laservomit happened because Clan ACs were not PPFLD and ERPPCs were too hot to boat.

Clanners will always be laservomit because they have no solid low heat ballistics save the Gauss, though you still see ERPPC+Gauss builds on Dires and TWs. Why?

Because PPFLD is, all other things being equal, superior to DoT.

Making PPCs better than lasers means they trump lasers.

The ability to peek for a fraction of a second and put your full damage in a single location on a single hit location on a sprinting Firestarter is always better than lasers. Always, always have been and always will be.

Pretending that a small heat change or refire delay change or the like somehow affects this is crazy.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Making PPCs better than lasers means they trump lasers.

Yeah, but even with a 1200-1300 velocity, they wouldnt.

Lasers still get hit scan, even if it spreads. Lasers get better damage/heat ratio. IS Lasers at least, weigh less and take less space.

PPC: 10/10, 4s CD 540m range
ISLL: 9/7, 3.25s CD, 450m range

Sure, the PPC is PP, but the laser is cooler and smaller, still a good alternate.

Right now, if PGI rebuffed PPCs with 12 heat on ERPPC and CERPPC, and 1175ms for PPC and 1200-1250ms for ERPPC, they would be used, but I dont think they would be the same OP as before. Before lasers were not nearly as good as they are now. Lasers didnt have quirks. In short, we have alot of changes that would make those builds not as prevalent and OP as they used to be.

PGI could give CERPPC 13/15 and it would still be trumped by the LPL on heat efficiency and sustainability. Sure, it would work better alongside a GR or something, but lasers could still compete just fine.



And on a side note, edited in nice and late, CLPL? Those will smoke PPCs any day.....13/10, hit scan, all you need is a decently steady aim and Lasers are vastly superior to PPCs......I am quickly loving this 4x LPL Lv5 CD and Range mod for the LPL.....group fire 2 for 26 dmg, and chain fire for sustained fire on enemy....it works nice.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 April 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[RoboPatton]

I've pretty much stopped using my ppc-erppc mechs in favor of ERLL or LL for energy sniping.

The "Meta" builds support this trend.

[Nori Silverrage]

dubplate, on 02 April 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

With the heat how do people use ERPPCs now? Tried them on my Warhawk, Adder, Ily, in testing grounds and none of them seem too great with them, didn't even bother trying to drop in a match. I know during the poptart days they were very annoying (and useful) but since that doesn't seem to be an issue these days hopefully they get a bit of a buff. I never touched PPCs due to min range because I know I'd end up firing them when someone was too close.

LordKnightFandragon, on 02 April 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

They dont, its why noone uses them. ton for ton, I think its safe to say, every weapon is better then PPCs and ERPPCs....THey are far to hot for the damage they deal, when compared to the laser vomit meta...or hell, when compared to almost everything...

PPCs in general suck totally....

Well, not entirely true.. Just mostly true.
I run a 2x ERPCC, 4x SPL Timber
In 160 matches I got a 2.88 KD and a 1.41 win rate.

It does take a lot of learning and practicing to make it work though. Honestly I doubt it would be worth it if clan AC weapons were any good.

[Y E O N N E]

Replies in spoilers for the sake of tidiness.

Quote

Trigger delay hurts long range shots, cuz at range, you have to be more precise, and needing to guage for even a split second longer fire time increases the chance of missing all the same. Usually at long range, when you want to fire, you need to, any delay and you miss.

Spoiler

But that has always been the case with PPCs or any weapon with travel time. Right now, people can see your slow round heading toward them. Speed up the round, and it gives them less time to react. They can't tell when you are about to pull the trigger with the delay, to them it looks the same whether it fires the instant you pull said trigger or 10 minutes from pulling it. They still have to try and dodge the projectile speeding toward them at 1500 m/s. So even with a delay, it's a net buff. All you have to do is keep your cross-hair steady on target for that tiny fraction of a second longer; they won't be dodging the shot.

And it's only a short 0.3 second delay at worst with my suggestion, which is dramatically shorter than the 0.75 seconds it takes to charge a Gauss Rifle. That's for the standard PPC. The ER and C-ER PPCs have even shorter delays of 0.25 and 0.20 seconds, respectively. You just don't have the option to cancel the shot, which is good, because it cuts down on spamming the trigger and hoping a few hit.

What seem to be asking for is a light-weight, 10-damage Auto-Cannon with a projectile that moves 1500 m/s. That's what you want. You shouldn't have it. There is zero point to having such a weapon in the game. It obsoletes another weapon, the AC/10, completely because it is better in every way.

Quote

Id rather see increases to CD if we see increases to CERPPC damage. If we saw 13/15, I would take a 4.25s CD. Cuz at the end of the day, the 15 heat keeps the weapon from being OP. Sure, you can fire like 4 at long range and shut your self down....but once the enemy gets nearer to you, your just killing yourself. THere will always be troll builds, those should not be the determining factor as to why a weapon is kept in a useless state.

PGI should start with:
PPC: 10/10, 4s CD, 1150ms
ERPPC: 10/12, 4s CD, 1200ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s CD, 1150ms

Then, apply quirks to certain mechs to get more velocity, better CD, and other various quirks to make them decent as a whole, but better on a select few mechs. Some quirks, like the ones on the AWS would need to be lowered from 12.5 to maybe 7.5%, esp on heat.

Spoiler

I have CD alterations as well, but mine are more aggressive. The way you have it set up, PPCs are still just as useless as they are now (too hot and too short-ranged for such a long CD, LPL are better in every way), ER PPCs are only marginally better, and C-ERPPCs are much better (12 ton, 26 damage rifle on 'Mechs with more compact DHS? Holy cripes).

I also don't want to rely on quirks to make weapons good. We have way too many quirks, and they need to be toned way the hell down. Variety now is no better than it used to be, it's just based more on weapon quirks instead of 'Mech geometry. Obviously, vanilla IS gear is sub-par and needs to be helped if PGI insists on a 1-to-1 ratio with Clans vs. IS, but chassis-variant quirks are a failed experiment in my eyes and it is time to tweak the guns themselves.

Quote

And a quick beam duration might be an amusing thing to try, like

PPC: 10dmg 0.25s Beam duration
ERPPC: 10dmg 0.4s Beam duration
CERPPC: 13dmg 0.65s Beam duration

but idk...

Spoiler

A beam only makes sense if you have a firing delay and high heat, otherwise it straight-up obsoletes lasers. Though if we're going to do beams, 0.25, 0.2, and 0.33 seconds would do the trick for PPC, ERPPC, and C-ERPPC, respectively. Duration penalty on PPC for lower heat, duration penalty on C-ERPPC for more damage (and I would jack the C-ERPPC up to the full 15/15).

Quote

As for balancing around the top tier players, good players will always be able to make weapons look OP, even if they are not. A Bad player will always make even an OP weapon look terrible. Balancing around an average performance means the vast majority of the players, not the top 10% who are MLG and not the bottom 10% who couldnt beat themselves out of a wet roll of toilet paper....

Right now, PGI has been balancing around the top 10% and their competitve MLG pro builds and tactics. While the tactics were incredibly effective and was likely ruining the overall feel of the game, all its led to is a different meta, while making a few different weapons and equipment items(JJ) obsolete and invalid to even use.

Spoiler

Good players will make everything look good, yes, but they also deserve to be rewarded for their practice. There have to be things in the game that require their level skill to fully maximize or they get bored with the game and leave. They have the very same right to be as entertained with the game as the bad or average players. They could all use Medium Lasers exclusively and you'd never know the difference between that and them using PPCs. All you'd know is that PPCs seem to suck when you use them, and that's because you are not practiced enough with them.

There are weapons in any given game that provide a performance baseline. Solid, reliable weapons that anybody can pick up and do reasonably well with. For Halo, it's the Battle Rifle. For us, it's lasers and, to a lesser extent, auto-cannons. These weapons are for your average player. In every game there are also weapons that might appear to suck to these average players, but actually provide very distinct advantages to those who recognize that weapon's utility and make the personal investment to maximize it. Those would be weapons like the AWP in Counter-Strike or the Needler in Halo. The AC/20, Gauss, and PPCs are supposed to be in that category. They are not back-bone weapons, they are niche weapons. ER PPCs and Gauss should be the go-to munitions for experienced, practiced players engaging in long-range combat. The regular PPC should be the weapon of choice for experienced skirmishers. The AC/20 is the favorite of brawlers. All of these roles require lots of damage really quickly in one location. Because they are so potent, though, these weapons also need to punish players for using them inappropriately. Size, weight, heat, projectile speed, and various methods for delaying the next round are some ways this is accomplished in MWO. Unfortunately, the internal balance among those within a given weapon is off because the TT rules and values don't translate well to a real-time video-game at all.

So, what I'm saying is that average players shouldn't worry about PPCs not being great for them if they aren't willing to invest in learning how to become masters with it. Yes, there is a point where the weapon is just simply bad, and I do think PPCs have one foot over that line, but what most people in here want is simply a point-and-click, instant-gratification, no-investment, energy-based auto-cannon.

Quote

So, rather then tweak the JJ down a few notches at a time, to where players could poptart if they wanted, it wouldnt be as effective through slower JJ regen, slightly less overall JJ juice, harder fall damage, more reticule shake while airborne....rather then what they did.....JJ power: 0% for all mechs, so even mechs who are stuck with 5JJ can barely get off the ground.....

Or the PPC/Gauss/AC5 meta, rather then tweak cool downs, ranges, maybe heat and damage, adding in group limits, PPC/GR/AC cant fire in teh same weapon group....they go with the blanket overnerf and obsoleting move of

Spoiler

Jump Jets haven't worked like they are supposed to in any MechWarrior game, ever. They are supposed to move your 'Mech a set distance along the ground by jumping it in the air and landing at that set distance. As in, you hit the button, your 'Mech jumps into the air, and then lands 120 meters from where you started. You don't get to feather them. The whole point is to cover distance quickly and get those short-ranged IS weapons into firing range, not peak over ridges.

But no. We have hover jets. We had hover jets a year ago. We had hover jets in MW4, MW3, etc. That's why pop-tarting was even a thing: because the Jump Jets are wrong.

And they were right not to limit fire groups. That's silly. The weapons should feature values and mechanics that make you as a player not want to fire them together, such as excessive heat. And I don't mean with Ghost Heat kicking in.

I could write an essay (as if this wasn't already an essay, heh) on how and why MWO is not balanced and what might be done to fix it.

Quote

THen they go and buff lasers all to hell, only further obsoleting the PPC. And why? BEcause the DWF could boat 9ERPPC and Guass/PPC builds. Dire Star is a useless build mostly. And while I will not argue one bit, the DUal ERPPC/Guass builds are very damn annoying to face, just making the weapons useless is not the answer. Rather then make the PPC bear the entire brunt of the nerfing, do something to GRs as well....

PPCs velocity from 1500 to 1300
Gauss Rifle velocity, 2000, 1750, increase cool downs, reduce ammo loads to 8 instead of the current 10.

Spoiler

Preaching to the choir about PPC+Gauss combos, but I would rather we make a separate thread for discussing general weapon balance than discuss what can be done about it in a thread dedicated to PPCs.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 04 April 2015 - 04:58 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Dang, good thing for spoilers, cuz yes, that would be a CF, TLDR...

But I want an Energy based AC10? It would obsolete AC10?

Maybe, PPC has better range, better long term sustainability, but what ACs have is a heat advantage, which counts for more then one can know. MWO doesnt make it matter much, but heat is a killer, managing your heat well is a skill that needs to be mastered or you die. Ever played Wizkids MW boardgame MW: AOD? That game heat management was almost as key to survival as oxygen. Shutting down, 8/10 times meant certain death of that mech in very short order, typically the next turn.

ACs might not have amazing range, or velocity,

they might have ammo issues, they may weigh alot, but they have low heat, and if this game had a worthwhile heat system, one would see why its such a huge advantage over any PPC. And while a CERPPC properly done would be 12t, 26dmg, it requires added heatsinks much in the same way the AC10 requires ammo for it to work.

So the AC10 maybe 12t and have 6t of ammo alongside it, the AC10 can fire any time it is ready, until ammo runs dry. It isnt limited by heat for all intents and purposes.

A Single ERPPC, much less 2 or 3 requires almost an AC10+ammo equivalent weight in DHS to support them or you will simply not be able to sustain enough fire on target to warrant carrying them. PPD or not, while the AC10 is dealing 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, gaining maybe 20% heat, that PPC is 10, 15 heat, 10, 15 heat, 10, 15 heat....and now your riding red line on heat, having to stop to cool off, while the AC10 is steady, 10, 10, 10....

So while in essence, I kinda do just want an energy AC10, THere are still disadvantages that would keep it from being OP.

As for PPC/Gauss mechs, ive spectated a few......its KAPOW...shut down.....KAPOW....shut down...KAPOW, shutdown....yeah, seems effective right? hardly....

I get you want an indepth redo for energy weapons. I am more thinking along the lines of what PGI could do in game now to fix them and make them atleast somewhat viable, and even with any of my proposed changes at this stage in MWO, would only bump PPCs out of extinction and put them on the map as weapons you could maybe get and use.

Cuz really, you have the option of(IS)
ERPPC: 10/12, 1200ms, 4s CD
LPL: 11/7, hit scan, 0.67s beam duration, 3.25s CD

which one is anyone more likely to take? Sure, the PPC is PPD, but it will be way out done by the LPL. Sure, ERPPC has range on the LPL, but in the dynamic of MWO, range is fairly pointless most times, as battles devolve into sub 500m brawls, where the LPL is going to out do the PPC badly. Even a IS ERLL or ISLL would do the PPC....then if you want a normal PPC, that thing is useless under 90m.....

Hell, in just the last 2 days, I took my Warhawk from it's 4x CERPPC build, Lv5 ERPPC CD mod
to
4x LPL, Lv5 CD and Range mod for LPL.

I have gotten 11 kills in 3 games, my KDR in that mech is in the positive, ive jacked avg dmg from 350-380, just today had a game of over 720dmg, 3k, 7a and a win. score of 105, yesterday, 4k, a loss, but had a score of 106. It convinces me in my mind PPCs are just completely ****, useless weapons. There is no doubt in my mind PPCs need a buff, velocity, speed, heat buff, damage buff...just buff the ***** things. PPD or not, they are useless.

My best CERPPC game was probably during Clan release on PTS in June was it? I got like 1 kill, 600 dmg and a win, and this was before ERPPC got speed nerfed. Since that time, the best ive done with CERPPC build is maybe 490 dmg, I might have broke 500 once or twice, and my kills have been creeping up so slow, 1 kill every number of games, despite me unloading volley after volley of CERPPC right dead center on stripped and injured mechs....Due to the heat and damage **** of CERPPC, ive been unable to kill atleast 4 mechs I could liekly give you the example right here.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Damage from even pulse lasers spreads most the time unless the target is standing still and often the attacker needs to be as well.

Ballistic PPFLD all hits the same location, every single time. Hill humping or hoverjet poptarting lets that get exploited. The problem currently is that due to different travel times and questionable accuracy (due to lower projectile speed) it's not a reliable enough way to put damage on target to warrant the heat.

Most poptart builds hit heatcap in about 3 shots. It was still optimal.

---

The ability to peek for a fraction of a second and put your full damage in a single location on a single hit location on a sprinting Firestarter is always better than lasers. Always, always have been and always will be.

Pretending that a small heat change or refire delay change or the like somehow affects this is crazy.

People seriously exaggerate the whole DoT thing. It hinders Clan UACs quite a bit, but lasers for both factions get past it quite easily (especially Clans). Why does DoT work for one but not the other? My own guess is probably that lasers travel at the speed of light, which is a very significant boon. Not to mention just being relatively low on tonnage and having infinite ammo.

The only laser that seems to be hindered by DoT is the Clan ER Large...and even then it still has a specialist use as an extreme-range poker-sniper.


Thanks for mentioning poptarts, because that reveals what caused all of this in the first place. The ability to accurately fire weapons while in the air, and immediately drop down to cover before you can get hit, is what was actually overpowered at the time. It wasn't about those guns used on the ground being too strong, it was the toaster pastry manuever that was too effective. Coincidentally, frontloaded guns had higher synergy with the poptart maneuver, which caused them to become the weapons of choice for jumpsnipers.

The mistake you're making here is that you're confusing the effectiveness of old PPCs on poptart builds with the effectiveness of PPCs on ANYTHING EXCEPT A POPTART.

Jumpsniping was the problem, PPCs and other FLD guns were the symptom. Don't nerf symptoms, fix problems. In this case, JJs need to be redesigned to emphasize mobility and make it a lot harder to fire while you're in midair (but still possible).

PPCs by themselves (as in, no jumpsniping involved) were only overpowered at 2000 m/s velocity and 8-9 heat (12-13 for ERPPCs). At 10(15) heat and 1500 m/s, they were great guns but mostly fine.

If you actually, legitimately felt that something like a Catapult K2 with 2 PPCs or my Griffin with 1 ERPPC were overpowered in the past, I will slap you through the internets.

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Clanner laservomit happened because Clan ACs were not PPFLD and ERPPCs were too hot to boat.

It's also because Clan lasers are just so damn awesome. They're so awesome that they forced IS mechs to either pack bigger XLs than usual and use lasers to free up enough weight for that engine (Gman's term for this is the "Big Engine Stomp Meta"), or use a STD engine so that pinpoint accurate laser vomit couldn't sidecore their IS XL.

The state of Clan ACs won't change the fact that Clan lasers are just amazing by themselves.

I used some ERPPC builds for derps on my Clan robots pre-nerf. For example, a 2 ERPPC + 2 ERML Thor or a 2 ERPPC + 4 MG Nova. I even ran a 2 ERPPC Puma for a little bit. And, I'll admit, I also cheesed and did the 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC Dire Whale. Speaking of which... (see next quote block).


Nowadays, my main gun of choice is the CLPL, with some CERML usage when I can't find the tonnage or heat for the former. Even with DoT, I find a use for at least 2 UAC/5s on some builds (like 4 ERML + 2 UAC/5 Loki). For IS I tend to use ERLL and/or ML for energy, maybe throw on UAC/5 or something for ballistics.

I don't touch PPCs or ERPPCs with a 30 foot pole unless they've got huge quirks for them, like my Resistance Panther's ERPPC...that's about it.

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Clanners will always be laservomit because they have no solid low heat ballistics save the Gauss, though you still see ERPPC+Gauss builds on Dires and TWs. Why?

The Dire Whale gets away with it because it's a 50 point alpha. In fact, this is the exact, specific outlier build that caused PPCs and ERPPCs to get smashed so hard in the first place. This one build ruined it for every other mech in the game, basically.

The Mad Cat's preferred Gauss build is probably Gauss + 5 ERML, actually. A lot more versatile and easier to use (hitscan vs slow projectile). Better heat efficiency too.

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Because PPFLD is, all other things being equal, superior to DoT.

What you're overlooking is that all other things aren't equal.

There are lots of differences including weapon tonnage, heat, projectile speed (fast/slow/hitscan), raw damage, cooldowns, and any other miscellaneous mechanics like minimum range or whatever. Lasers have other traits to make up for being DoT, like being point and click (speed of light), having less heat, being lighter weight in most cases (excluding LPLs), doing damage within 90 meters (compared to regular PPC only), and having a higher damage-per-tonnage ratio ("more bang for your buck").

This isn't like we're just copy-pasting all the weapon stats and just making one FLD while the other DoT. There are other stats being changed at the same time that offset this.

MischiefSC, on 04 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Making PPCs better than lasers means they trump lasers.

Making lasers better than PPCs means they trump PPCs.

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

LOL, Lasers wouldnt be the go to meta gun for so long if DoT was so bad.... Lasers pretty well rock once the player gets the hang of the game......

[Elizander]

Gauss and PPC were the problems. I don't see why they just return PPC back to the old speed and give it the Ghost Heat love when used with Gauss Rifles to invalidate the combination. PPC + Gauss Rifle fired, +15 extra heat.

The same problem exists for Laser Vomit. The Stalker actually doesn't alpha you with 6LL, it has to break it up to 3/3 or 2/2/2 (if they undo the ISLL GS change). Clans can spit out 50 damage in one go due to a combination of LL/LPL + 4 ERML. The only advantage the Stalker has over clams is about 250m range due to clammers using ERML instead of more LPL. The truth is though Stalkers will perform the same even if they undo the 3LL ghost heat change. I've seen more than enough 2/2/2 macro shot Stalkers to know you're just saving an extra 0.5 seconds of the inevitable. Having LL/ML share some ghost heat penalties will break up high vomit alphas on both sides, even if just a little.

Stalker advantage over clams is that it's probably way more heat efficient than a clam mech (then again I have not elited my vomitcrow yet though I think I still heat up fast on my Vomitbringer). Then again we're comparing an 85 ton mech to 55, 65, and 75 tonners. Against IS, the complaint seems to always be "That one mech".

PGI seems to be fine with a 96 Alpha Direwolf that can sustain 30 damage (dual Gauss) while it cools down and we have mechs that Alpha for 50+ damage (albeit DOT) at 450m-600m+ already so taking PPCs out of the equation seems silly. Just turn it into an energy Gauss already and let's be done with it.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yup, my suspiscions are confirmed, 1200 velocity atleast puts CERPPC on the map as being able to be used with a tiny bit of range and are atleast on the board as marginally useful.

If PGI would change it to where it was 1150-1200 normally, and quirked to 1250-1300 on certain mechs, then given a touch bit of 13 dmg for 15 heat, it would be a good weapon.

The 10 damage for 15 heat still keeps it in the near useless state, but 1250-1300ms, 13, 14 or 15 dmg, 15 heat, same CD, it would be a decent enough weapon. Been running the ADR prime in 2 games now with 2 CERPPC, sad results of 2k and 1k, not even above 300 damage yet in either game, but with the 1200ms velocity quirk, atleast the thing has a touch of range to it.....was able to actually hit moving mechs at 880m without needing to lead a full map square ahead of them...

Edit; And PPCs still have that impacting the terrain **** going on with them. Still kinda bad weapons, even on the ADR with 1200 velocity, 13 or 15 dmg and they would be decent...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 05 April 2015 - 11:46 AM.