263 replies to this topic

[Red1769]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

I would rather have more velocity than increased damage. How would you justify IS (ER) PPCs doing 12-13 damage? That wouldn't go over well...

Unless they were more heat effecient and have greator velocity than the Clan version. Better heat effeciency to counter act the Clan version's lighter weight and less space, more accurate/faster to counter act the Clan version's greater FLD. Would that not balance both versions?

[Gyrok]

Red1769, on 10 April 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Unless they were more heat effecient and have greator velocity than the Clan version. Better heat effeciency to counter act the Clan version's lighter weight and less space, more accurate/faster to counter act the Clan version's greater FLD. Would that not balance both versions?

If clans had 15 damage ERPPCs...instead we get 10 guaranteed where we hit, and 2.5 more guaranteed as splash to specific adjacent components and possibly 2.5 more to an additional adjacent component.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

I would rather have more velocity than increased damage. How would you justify IS (ER) PPCs doing 12-13 damage? That wouldn't go over well...

I wouldnt buff IS PPC damage, instead, they would get better ROF and better heat efficiency, just like the rest of the IS weapon lineup. Compared to the Clans higher base damage, little slower overall RoF and output, worse heat efficiency, despite the 2slot DHS.

Ive only posted it alot.....

ISERPPC would be 10/12, 3.75s CD, 1300 base velocity, then quirks for mechs like the Awesome
CERPPC: 12-13/15, 4.25s, 1200 base velocity, then quirks for mechs like the Warhawk and Adder.

AWS and its like -12.5% for PPC heat then another boost to energy weapon heat, giving it like 10/10 for an IS ERPPC.

While the Warhawk quirks of +15% velocity and 8% PPC heat.

So the AWS would get a 10/9, 3.75s, then PPC velocity putting it over 1400ms

THe WHK would get 12-13/13.8, maybe a little over 1300ms.

But just on any non quirked mech? They would be decent in their own way, but probably not ideal to choose over lasers, and really, if the PPCs are only really good and truly good to use on a select few mechs, then that is probably good. Then we dont see them spammed as a standard on every mech ever made. But as I suggest, they would be atleast viable weapons should you want to use some. Lasers would still be more heat efficient and easier to use, faster to cool off, recycle, better in a brawl and the like.

[CutterWolf]

You guys are going about this all wrong. The PPC & IS ERPPC don't need any help, the only PPC in the game "not" being used is the Clan ERPPC.

So lets look at why the Clan ERPPC is not being used.

1. Heat vs damage done.

2. Splash damage that is hit or miss. (anyone who has ever used his weapon knows that the splash damage does not always happen. Just like all other weapons in MWO that have splash there is always some issue that keep them from doing either all, some of that damage)

Also, verified thought in game testing (not in testing grounds) the Clan ER PPC can be totally hit or miss as far as doing any damage at all or only producing some of the damage. So like Clan UAC's it's rarely used due to it's reliability to effectively deliver damage for the cost in heat.

The Clan ER PPC is suppose to be the ultimate version of the PPC. Lore tells us that in all the years that the IS houses have had the Clan ER PPC tech they have NEVER been able to come close to recreating anything on par with it. So why in gods name would you even consider making either one of the IS versions better than it? That would be like saying, "My stock 1963 VW bug should out run my 2015 Porsche 911 turbo for those same reasons."

Raising the pin point damage and reducing the splash damage would go a long way to getting this weapon used.

Edited by CutterWolf, 11 April 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

CutterWolf, on 11 April 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You guys are going about this all wrong. The PPC & IS ERPPC don't need any help, the only PPC in the game "not" being used is the Clan ERPPC.

So lets look at why the Clan ERPPC is not being used.

1. Heat vs damage done.

2. Splash damage that is hit or miss. (anyone who has ever used his weapon knows that the splash damage does not always happen. Just like all other weapons in MWO that have splash there is always some issue that keep them from doing either all, some of that damage)

Also, verified thought in game testing (not in testing grounds) the Clan ER PPC can be totally hit or miss as far as doing any damage at all or only producing some of the damage. So like Clan UAC's it's rarely used due to it's reliability to effectively deliver damage for the cost in heat.

The Clan ER PPC is suppose to be the ultimate version of the PPC. Lore tells us that in all the years that he IS houses have had the Clan ER PPC tech they have NEVER been able to come close to recreating anything on par with it. So why in gods name would you even consider making either one of the IS versions better than it? That would be like saying, "My stock 1963 VW bug should out run my 2015 Porsche 911 turbo for those same reasons."

Raising the pin point damage and reducing the splash damage would go a long way to getting this weapon used.

Id rather they remove the splash. The splash is probably why hit detect on it is so hit and miss. The game has to simultaneously register 3 different damage numbers, and packet loss, it probably loses some of it.

Id take 13/15 and have them remove the last 2....

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 April 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

I would rather have more velocity than increased damage. How would you justify IS (ER) PPCs doing 12-13 damage? That wouldn't go over well...

It would be a nice quirk for some robots.

Fridge, Adder, PeaceDove.

Various degrees, since the PeaceDove could technically do a 45 PP FLD alpha with mediocre sustainability.


Adder can "effectively" take 2 ERPPC, without stripping armour, with a couple DHS. Fridge cannot take 2 ERPPCs without stripping significant armour.


I'd say the Fridge is a good contender for a single 15 PP FLD cERPPC.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mcgral18, on 11 April 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

It would be a nice quirk for some robots.

Fridge, Adder, PeaceDove.

Various degrees, since the PeaceDove could technically do a 45 PP FLD alpha with mediocre sustainability.


Adder can "effectively" take 2 ERPPC, without stripping armour, with a couple DHS. Fridge cannot take 2 ERPPCs without stripping significant armour.


I'd say the Fridge is a good contender for a single 15 PP FLD cERPPC.

Ok, what mech is the Fridge? AWS or SUmmoner?

Plus, the whole point of the Warhawk in MWO is apparently to sit at range and keep its distance, so, of all the mechs in this game dealing a heavy alpha, the Warhawk should be it. And it really couldnt sustain that to well. Would be serious heat, 2 then 1, even worse if you go 3....

2/2 it can do that twice before needing to stop. So, its actual sustainable output is 10/10/10/10.....or, if PGI was nice, atleast 12 or 13.....I dont hnestly ever see a 15 happening. That 2.5/2.5 is a waste...its never gotten me anywhere. PPC boating is not as OP as GR boating simply cuz of the heat output. A Guass boat you have no window to move in on it, he can fire as fast as he can load. PPC boat? He fires, fires, fires and if you are not discouraged or dead, you just keep putting the pressure on and he will be in no position to fight you. Gauss Boat? He will kill you dead, 2000ms vs 1200/1050/950 and 15 vs currently 10. Atleast at 12 or 13, the PPC boat could really put the spank on you. While that 2 or 3 doesnt seem to be that much, I could see the multitude of times it woulda made all the difference in the world for me. I commonly leave mechs at red CTs and shut down...then have to hope hes still there or not dead by the time I turn back on...and this firing 1 at a time....I dont dare group fire 2...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 11 April 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Mcgral18]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Ok, what mech is the Fridge? AWS or SUmmoner?

The Ice Ferret

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Ok, what mech is the Fridge? AWS or SUmmoner?

Ice Ferret.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 11 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

The Ice Ferret

FupDup, on 11 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Ice Ferret.

Let's put this Fridge on ice...

Edited by Deathlike, 11 April 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

CutterWolf, on 11 April 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

You guys are going about this all wrong. The PPC & IS ERPPC don't need any help, the only PPC in the game "not" being used is the Clan ERPPC.

So lets look at why the Clan ERPPC is not being used.

1. Heat vs damage done.

2. Splash damage that is hit or miss. (anyone who has ever used his weapon knows that the splash damage does not always happen. Just like all other weapons in MWO that have splash there is always some issue that keep them from doing either all, some of that damage)

Also, verified thought in game testing (not in testing grounds) the Clan ER PPC can be totally hit or miss as far as doing any damage at all or only producing some of the damage. So like Clan UAC's it's rarely used due to it's reliability to effectively deliver damage for the cost in heat.

The Clan ER PPC is suppose to be the ultimate version of the PPC. Lore tells us that in all the years that the IS houses have had the Clan ER PPC tech they have NEVER been able to come close to recreating anything on par with it. So why in gods name would you even consider making either one of the IS versions better than it? That would be like saying, "My stock 1963 VW bug should out run my 2015 Porsche 911 turbo for those same reasons."

Raising the pin point damage and reducing the splash damage would go a long way to getting this weapon used.

How does the Clan ER PPC need help but the IS ER PPC is "fine"? Lmao

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

How does the Clan ER PPC need help but the IS ER PPC is "fine"? Lmao

Probably thinks it's fine because a few hyper-quirked machines can use them. Which is bull, they should be usable without the quirks.

Which, honestly, is why the quirks suck in general. The base-stats on the weapons need a work-over.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 April 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Probably thinks it's fine because a few hyper-quirked machines can use them. Which is bull, they should be usable without the quirks.

Which, honestly, is why the quirks suck in general. The base-stats on the weapons need a work-over.

The entire game needs to return to TT values and start the hell over.

Lasers give more heat then they did damage to give validity to packing in Auto cannons that were heavy, but gave you good damage for heavy weight and ammo limits. PPCs were good because they were heavy damage for almost equal heat.

See, when you realize in TT a IS LL is a 8d, 12h weapon and the PPC is a 10/10 weapon, the PPC seems ALOT better then now, where a LL is 9d, 8h...

Honestly, PGI should just make weapons TT values and return lasers to PPD weapons. Then, revert the heat scale to 40 points. IDK why people think it would be so damn hard to make TT into a PC game. I have read my BT book, it says there is a initiative, movement, weapons, melee, heat and end turn phase.

SO, idk where this MWO heat scale comes from. In TT it sounds like if you generate 60 heat worth of weapons, your shut down, but in the heat phase, you might cool off 40 heat, leaving you at 20 heat and able to have a chance to turn back on. WHich leads me to believe you actually do want to control fire, which is how this game should be, periodic fire of 1 or 2 weapons. 1x ranges.

Oh and Ultras, it doesnt say they jam, but rather break on a roll of 2. Its rotaries that jam...so can PGI get a clue?

Then, yeah, in a 30-40 point heat scale, a 15/15 PPC wouldnt be nearly OP, its way to hot to maintain, but gives amazing dmg for the heat dealt, while CLL is still only a 10d 12h weapon, making the PPC even more appealing overall....

[Yokaiko]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

SO, idk where this MWO heat scale comes from. In TT it sounds like if you generate 60 heat worth of weapons, your shut down, but in the heat phase, you might cool off 40 heat, leaving you at 20 heat and able to have a chance to turn back on. WHich leads me to believe you actually do want to control fire, which is how this game should be, periodic fire of 1 or 2 weapons. 1x ranges.

..

Wrong, heat isn't applied until after the heat phase, so if you took a Warhawk Prime blasted someone with all for ERs from 0 you would generate 60 heat and then subtract its 20 DHS off, the heatscale would be at 20 assuming you weren't moving, or standing in a burning forest or some such.

You would have a pair of shutdown rolls and see if you knocked the pilot out form the heat however, and next round doing anything that wasn't plinking with LRM is going to be an act of bravery, Warhawks were always about gambling.

However, being able to lay out 60 points from across the map was worth it, 30 points would center punch most mechs if you got two shots on the CT, and even if you didn't kill them with the crits, they were going to be hiding, and moving slower with more heat.

[CptGier]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

Wrong, heat isn't applied until after the heat phase, so if you took a Warhawk Prime blasted someone with all for ERs from 0 you would generate 60 heat and then subtract its 20 DHS off, the heatscale would be at 20 assuming you weren't moving, or standing in a burning forest or some such.

You would have a pair of shutdown rolls and see if you knocked the pilot out form the heat however, and next round doing anything that wasn't plinking with LRM is going to be an act of bravery, Warhawks were always about gambling.

However, being able to lay out 60 points from across the map was worth it, 30 points would center punch most mechs if you got two shots on the CT, and even if you didn't kill them with the crits, they were going to be hiding, and moving slower with more heat.

So, I fire all 4 of my CERPPC, with 28DHS, so 56, heat phase im at 60 heat, my DHS cool me back to 4? I make shut down rolls, pilot rolls then next turn im at 4 heat? I could then fire off 3 of them and be at 49 heat, cool off and be at 0 once again. Whats to gamble? They can basically keep that going all day.

And is it 1 to hit location roll for the 4x CERPPC shot? Or 4 separate rolls for each shot, despite being fired in a group? Or does TT not have PPFLD Group fire mode like we have in MWO?

Edited by CptGier, 11 April 2015 - 09:14 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

I think no more weapons changes should be made until convergence is addressed.

[Yokaiko]

CptGier, on 11 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

So, I fire all 4 of my CERPPC, with 28DHS, so 56, heat phase im at 60 heat, my DHS cool me back to 4?

Yup. 5 if walking 6 if running

CptGier, on 11 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

I make shut down rolls, pilot rolls then next turn im at 4 heat?

Nope. Soft shutdowns were at 12, 18, 22 and 26

CptGier, on 11 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

I could then fire off 3 of them and be at 49 heat, cool off and be at 0 once again. Whats to gamble? They can basically keep that going all day.

I was using a stock build, because most of the time if you were playing stock mechs were enforcred to stop the min-maxers. Construction rules were for "house games" and campaigns.

....and trust me the battlemechs being more adaptable than Omni's just didn't happen.

CptGier, on 11 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

And is it 1 to hit location roll for the 4x CERPPC shot? Or 4 separate rolls for each shot, despite being fired in a group? Or does TT not have PPFLD Group fire mode like we have in MWO?

Four separate rolls, in fact you rolled missiles to see how many hit THEN for LRM you divided them into groups of 5 for location.

Starting to see why people harp on convergence?

Edited by Yokaiko, 11 April 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[CptGier]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

Yup. 5 if walking 6 if running



Nope. Soft shutdowns were at 12, 18, 22 and 26



I was using a stock build, because most of the time if you were playing stock mechs were enforcred to stop the min-maxers. Construction rules were for "house games" and campaigns.

....and trust me the battlemechs being more adaptable than Omni's just didn't happen.




Four separate rolls, in fact you rolled missiles to see how many hit THEN for LRM you divided them into groups of 5 for location.

Starting to see why people harp on convergence?

Very well lol, that all makes sense.


And on convergeance, it all is becoming very clear to me. Even in TT, despite you firing 10 guns at once, its still separate rolls. To me this issue is very, very clear on how to implement a similar situation into MWO without all sorts of ******** mechanics.

You simply make it where we can only chain fire. Since that is basically how I am deciphering what your saying there. I fire all 4 CERPPC but its still 4 rolls....so that means its not a single massive group fire into a CT, its 4 shots, in a very short amount of time going to many spots on a mech.

Sure, you put your guns into weapons groups, but can only chain fire them. If you fire groups 1 and 2 together, the game imposes a 1s delay on group 2, then if you fired 3 at that same time, 1s then it fires group 3. So, it basically means you fire 1 weapon group, 1 weapon at a time. Then, paired along side a 30-40 point heat scale, it would slow the entire pace of the game down. Laser vomit everything wouldnt be meta, instead more balanced loads would be good.

Sounds good to me, MWO is kinda boring in that it is pretty much massive gun fire from every mech, cant move at all without melting, deathballing everywhere.....no pause in fire....assaults cant be assaults cuz every mech can bring assault fire power down on it....

[Yokaiko]

CptGier, on 11 April 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Sounds good to me, MWO is kinda boring in that it is pretty much massive gun fire from every mech, cant move at all without melting, deathballing everywhere.....no pause in fire....assaults cant be assaults cuz every mech can bring assault fire power down on it....

That the maps, and a large number of piss poor design choices.

[CptGier]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

That the maps, and a large number of piss poor design choices.

Lol, I havent played a series of games ever since I got my Warhawks and today, I totally sold every mech I had on my LKF account......this game was just entirely rage inducing. Losing team after losing team.

I mean, its not the fact I lost that irks me, its the fact that its over 150 games later and the games are not even close. I mean, its not like its a 10/12 game, or 11/12 game that lasted 12 minutes. Naw, they are over in 2minutes, 1 or 3 to 12. I mean, there is no time to even play the game. I mean, when I want to play a game ,I want to play the game. Spend some time, savor the moment, even if I do move fast and tend to just play the game, not focusing on the little things....I still like a game ot last 30-40 minutes....you know, get involved in the game. This game isnt that, its ready, set, game over....

The fact that im on the 1-12 losing team game after game just makes it that much more rage inducing. Even in some of them I managed to deal a good amount of damage, but in many of them it was over so fast I couldnt do anything. In one, my side melted, I frantically fired at every mech near me, got 1 kill, 500 dmg, top score on my side, top over 10 enemy players and a guy had the gaul to say I just needed to focus more...cant when im getting shot from 14 different angles cuz my team utterly failed.

You cannot know how badly I wish this game just had 4 player coop.....I would love this game to death if that was the case.....but this PVP, the players? Just no...I did it in WoT for 4606 games and rage quit that game for the same reason. Boring grindy gameplay, annoying ass RNG AND the ****** players? MWO is poor gameplay and ****** players..and the ****** players gets to me more then the bad gameplay....

I mean, I have been in CW where we lost, but it was a GOOD GAME!!!! IT came down to the last 2 minutes I think it was. We lost 36-48, but it was a good long fight....I mean, Pug land would be good if it was that...10-12, 9-12, lasting 10 minutes.....

This game needs a journal......cuz ugh do I have alot ot vent about on this game atm lol......