106 replies to this topic

[Coolant]

Nerf it, I don't pilot it...

[norus]

Davers, on 04 April 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

I know. Now the Wolverine is in a pile of other mechs that have LL quirks, and can do it better (Centurion and Enforcer come to mind first). Now we don't have a single medium mech with LPL quirks (The Blackjack lost theirs too for the same reason). But I keep the LPL on mine anyway, out of the love I had using it.

I tried the LL on the wolverine and promptly stuck the LPL back on it. It seriously can not deal with the increased beam duration of the LL when all of its firepower is in a single easily destroyed part. I honestly felt it was the best IS laser med at the time and the only one which could somewhat fight a stormcrow (faster pinpoint damage but less dps/alpha). Right now the IS doesn't have any med that can laserfight scr's. The part which annoyed me most about the change is that there are still mechs which have quirks that aren't based on their stock loadout at all like the fs9-s. So they basically ruined the wvk for a BS reason which they don't even follow in all cases.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Shadow Magnet, on 04 April 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah, and why in the hell he did listen to those guys? Where is the Wolverine now? That change just increased the mech monoculturing even more. And the sad part is that the result was totally predictable.

Sounds to me like a problem with the min/max mentality of people, rather than with attempting to run mechs as they are intended to be run.

You forget, these mechs, they're not supposed to see the drastic weaponry changes we give them. Each battlemech is made with a specific role and ideal situation in mind. The Catapult K2 for instance, was intended to be a long range, direct energy support mech. not a dual ac20 brawler. The A1 was intended to be a long range indirect fire mech, not the splat cat.

I will ALWAYS stand beside my stance of "Just because you can take a mech made for x role and turn it into Y role, doesn't mean you should." Too many people use battlemechs as gunbags as it is... you don't want to play the role intended for the mech, you just want to hop in and have a blast.

I'm glad PGI quirked some mechs to be more in line with the stock variation of said mech, that's how quirks SHOULD have been. I also feel there should be fewer heavy weapon specific quirks, and more generalist quirks.

All of you want to take a mech, and make it the ultimate 1 shot machine... instead of making generalist mechs that can function in a bunch of roles like most battlemechs are intended... then you whine when something changes that doesn't cater to your meta. Get over it.

[Alistair Winter]

For me, the issue isn't that it's OP. Because it's not. Just like the triple LL Raven 2X isn't OP, or, as I just spotted in a pub match, the 3ERLL Raven 3L. They're not OP, really. But it does bother me that mech building devolves into boating. And yes, BT always had boats. Those boats should be celebrated and quirked to function as intended. But it bothers me to see so many other mechs reduced to boats.

If the quirks weren't so narrow in their scope, maybe more people would be encouraged to use different types of weapons. And we'd have more of a thinking man's shooter, where you didn't just have a single weapon group that you fired by smashing your fist repeatedly on the mouse 1 button like a neanderthal.

[MechaBattler]

Alistair Winter, on 04 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

For me, the issue isn't that it's OP. Because it's not. Just like the triple LL Raven 2X isn't OP, or, as I just spotted in a pub match, the 3ERLL Raven 3L. They're not OP, really. But it does bother me that mech building devolves into boating. And yes, BT always had boats. Those boats should be celebrated and quirked to function as intended. But it bothers me to see so many other mechs reduced to boats.

If the quirks weren't so narrow in their scope, maybe more people would be encouraged to use different types of weapons. And we'd have more of a thinking man's shooter, where you didn't just have a single weapon group that you fired by smashing your fist repeatedly on the mouse 1 button like a neanderthal.

But is it enough to be competitive?

We should just nerf the few problematic mechs instead of trying to super quirk other mechs to reach them. Find some middle ground between quirking and nerfing.

[washout]

MechaBattler, on 04 April 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

But is it enough to be competitive?

We should just nerf the few problematic mechs instead of trying to super quirk other mechs to reach them. Find some middle ground between quirking and nerfing.

Agreed, doing this has the added bonus of reducing TTK.

[washout]

Bulletsponge0, on 04 April 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

it shows me...

that those 3 are picked all the time means none of the other clan mechs are any good..there are no other viable clan mechs for CW

If you look at your stats I bet you would find that the lesser clan mechs probably have stats equivalent to the mid tier IS mechs (unless you don't play IS at all), I'd say that the currently considered lesser clan mechs are that way because the top 3 are so ridiculously OP that they completely overshadow the rest of the lineup and make them look like garbage.

As an example if you look at the current metamechs tier lists you will see that the IS tier list is broken down into 5 different tiers, and I'd even say it's fairly accurate, the clans, probably just because they don't have as many only have 3 tiers currently, but it's easy to see that not many of the clan mechs should be bumped down to tier 4 or 5.

The nova for example, widely considered to be bad, is easily compared to many IS mediums. the only reason it's considered bad is because the stormcrow is so much better.

Edited by washout, 04 April 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

MechaBattler, on 04 April 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

But is it enough to be competitive?

We should just nerf the few problematic mechs instead of trying to super quirk other mechs to reach them. Find some middle ground between quirking and nerfing.

Preaching to the choir, brother.

[Bulletsponge0]

washout, on 04 April 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

If you look at your stats I bet you would find that the lesser clan mechs probably have stats equivalent to the mid tier IS mechs (unless you don't play IS at all), I'd say that the currently considered lesser clan mechs are that way because the top 3 are so ridiculously OP that they completely overshadow the rest of the lineup and make them look like garbage.

As an example if you look at the current metamechs tier lists you will see that the IS tier list is broken down into 5 different tiers, and I'd even say it's fairly accurate, the clans, probably just because they don't have as many only have 3 tiers currently, but it's easy to see that not many of the clan mechs should be bumped down to tier 4 or 5.

metamechs is a nice resource, but its still all opinion

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Make all Clan mech Count as 1 Point of armor so all IS mech can oneshoot em. Remove Airstrikes/Arti from the Clans. Remove all heat from IS weapon and let emdo 12000000 dmg with endless range. Yes that would bee the balancing IS Player would like.

[EnochsBook]

Flash Frame, on 04 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

All of you want to take a mech, and make it the ultimate 1 shot machine... instead of making generalist mechs that can function in a bunch of roles like most battlemechs are intended...

The problem with this game is that there is no point in having 'Mechs that can fill a bunch of different roles.
All that matters in MWO is a 'Mechs ability to deal massive amounts of damage in as little time as possible, preferably with lasers. Can a particular 'Mech deal more than 45 points of damage in a single Alpha? Yes? Then it is meta.
It can't? Then it's next to useless.
I'm afraid the game's balance won't improve much as long as things are this way.

[Quxudica]

Shadow Magnet, on 04 April 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah, and why in the hell he did listen to those guys? Where is the Wolverine now? That change just increased the mech monoculturing even more. And the sad part is that the result was totally predictable.

Well this is the way all quirks should have been done. Giving chassis quirks based on the current meta was an awful mistake. That said, only giving certain variants quirks based on their stock loadouts doesn't help - it needs to be full on or it accomplishes nothing.


Of course I also think making quriks so damage/weapon centric was a bad decision as well. Quirks should be more diverse and based on not just the weapons but also the *role* that chassis is supposed to be performing. But then that would diminish the arcadey alpha centric game play MWO seems to want to foster so, nevermind I guess.

[AssaultPig]

Flash Frame, on 04 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

you don't want to play the role intended for the mech, you just want to hop in and have a blast.

I too wish that people would stop enjoying themselves incorrectly

[washout]

Marc von der Heide, on 04 April 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Make all Clan mech Count as 1 Point of armor so all IS mech can oneshoot em. Remove Airstrikes/Arti from the Clans. Remove all heat from IS weapon and let emdo 12000000 dmg with endless range. Yes that would bee the balancing IS Player would like.

And if you read my first post you would see that I play both IS and Clan, additionally my personal preference is for clan mechs, that does not mean that I want to see clans continue to be ******** OP and so unbelievably dominant.

The dominance really came to light when I made a scoring system for my own stats and computed all my numbers, the base score was 1000 and then depending on how bad or good I was at a particular mech the numbers would go up and down. My IS mechs hit a range of between 500 for the Awesome and up to 1300 for some like the firestarter or shadowhawk and the pre nerf wolverine at 1800 which is far higher than any other IS mech I own, the top 3 clan mechs however all averaged over 1600, with some going up to 2200.

So for me, when you put me in a top tier IS mech I'll average 1.1 to 1.5 KDR, put me in top tier clan mechs though and it shoots up to 1.3 at the lowest going up to 2.5 for my pulse vomit hellbringer, even higher than my 2.45 average for my pre nerf Wolverene-6K.

[Xaiier]

Alistair Winter, on 04 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

If the quirks weren't so narrow in their scope, maybe more people would be encouraged to use different types of weapons. And we'd have more of a thinking man's shooter, where you didn't just have a single weapon group that you fired by smashing your fist repeatedly on the mouse 1 button like a neanderthal.

But, clearly that is what the clanners like, all their builds are one button laserbarf! Find me a meta build that isn't just a combo of er-med and lpl!

[Mcgral18]

washout, on 04 April 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

The nova for example, widely considered to be bad, is easily compared to many IS mediums. the only reason it's considered bad is because the stormcrow is so much better.

The reason it's widely considered to be Bad is because...it's bloody Wide. Horrendous hitboxes on it, easily equalling the Dragon and Awesome in width, with larger arms which house all the weapons, while having less armour.


The only saving grace this robot has is weapons. Construction rules are also rather poor (as with all Clam robots in MWO's construction rules).
Grab Endo, upgrade to a 300XL, lose 3 crit slots, a half ton (making the total an even number, good for heatsinks and lasers) and move 107. 2 DHS fit in the engine.

Too big for it's own good.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Flash Frame, on 04 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

you just want to hop in and have a blast..

That's kinda sorta the point of a video game. Sorry for having fun the wrong way apparently.

Xaiier, on 04 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

But, clearly that is what the clanners like, all their builds are one button laserbarf! Find me a meta build that isn't just a combo of er-med and lpl!

Clam laser vomit lies in bad ballistics. As they stand, clan lasers are significantly better than clan ballistics which are just lasers that weigh more, are larger, require ammo, and are less intuitive on getting shots on target.

[washout]

Xaiier, on 04 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

But, clearly that is what the clanners like, all their builds are one button laserbarf! Find me a meta build that isn't just a combo of er-med and lpl!

1 Gauss and 4-6 ERML is also an amazing meta build, especially on hot maps.

[Johny Rocket]

EnochsBook, on 04 April 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

The problem with this game is that there is no point in having 'Mechs that can fill a bunch of different roles.
All that matters in MWO is a 'Mechs ability to deal massive amounts of damage in as little time as possible, preferably with lasers. Can a particular 'Mech deal more than 45 points of damage in a single Alpha? Yes? Then it is meta.
It can't? Then it's next to useless.
I'm afraid the game's balance won't improve much as long as things are this way.

thats a lot of speculation, in my own experience, my most dangerous mech, the one that has 1000+dmg matches under its belt only has an Alpha of 34 and can't really alpha.
My 4N (number 2 murder machine) can alpha maybe once without shutting down. I say no matter how skewed people think things are reality is that dmg over time is still where its at.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 04 April 2015 - 03:26 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Xaiier, on 04 April 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

But, clearly that is what the clanners like, all their builds are one button laserbarf! Find me a meta build that isn't just a combo of er-med and lpl!

I agree with that, but I play both Clan and IS mechs, so the whole IS vs Clan discussion is kind of irrelevant to me. It's ok to just talk about the problems of Inner Sphere mechs without getting into the problems of Clan mechs. Especially since Clans aren't plagued by the quirks like Inner Sphere mechs, except for the Summoner's deadly 2% machine gun range quirk, which is clearly OP.