106 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

Lord0fHats, on 04 April 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Even on the defense its a bad mech. Either the attackers push in hard and fast and the dire gets focused down, leaving that player with nothing but the crappy mechs they picked to bring it, or the enemy team switches sides, and it takes the Dire forever to get back into the fight. The Clans aren't the IS, who gets 10 tons extra to play with in CW vs Clans. That 10 tons has a huge effect, as it suddenly becomes easy to stack a deck with heavies and assaults.
It all honestly just comes down to speed. The Dire is too slow. The Crab and Stalker can switch their engine to get their mechs to a faster speed. 60 KPH is pretty much the break point for usefulness, and the Crab and Stalker both manage to get by that mark.

Well that's bull when you have 12 mans of Clanners defending with 8-10 Dire Whales out there sitting practically ON Omega. Seen that a few times.

True that on tonnage though, though the Arctic Cheetah will make all kinds of new viability into Dires in CW. I see plenty of Kgcs on CW regardless, along with plenty of Dires, plenty of Banshees, rarely if ever a DDC/S cause of how long ranged CW is based off of.

[Lord0fHats]

Quote

Playing the meta makes the game worse.

I don't disagree and dont think anyone really does. We have another thread on this same board about the subject. No one is fond of the Alpha meta. Unfortunately its still the meta.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 04 April 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[AssaultPig]

the problem with the WVR-6K change didn't even have anything to do with min-maxing anyway; nobody thought that the pulseboat 6K was anything but an amusing novelty build. The problem was that they gave it similar LL quirks to what piles of other mechs get, while only four other mechs have LPL quirks at all (and one of those is a hero.)

it reduced weapon diversity for no reason other than that a few people are super attached to stock builds for no reason anybody can ever explain

Edited by AssaultPig, 04 April 2015 - 08:04 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

luxebo, on 04 April 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

Well that's bull when you have 12 mans of Clanners defending with 8-10 Dire Whales out there sitting practically ON Omega. Seen that a few times.

Doesn't make it a good idea.

[luxebo]

Lord0fHats, on 04 April 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Doesn't make it a good idea.

It's a hell of a good idea when you can even one-shot lights holding sniper positions. People in the way at E7 (Boreal)? Just sit there and you will out trade em. People trying to bum rush Alpha/Gamma on Sulfur? Just sit right there on that hill, no one will dare turn that corner. People trying to Crab/Banshee/4N back at you? Well just out-Whale em by getting more Whales against em. Never let em close and you practically win. Helleborne? Once again plenty of perches to just sit there and force em to never push, ever. (Only issue is Grim of course, which is practically determined by close range combat.)

Done it a couple times with a few personal buddies, just have everyone take Banshee trial, camp Omega, never let anything pass. I'm positive you can take the Whale trial too and have the same effect.

To add on, have all the Dire Whales take the gauss + laser vomit at once to insta-core enemy assaults and absolutely stomp the enemy for 2-3 waves if played smart.

--

Remember to rest of us, we can't compare Timber to Stalker. That's basically comparing Ice Ferrets and Wolverines, which some one actually tried to one time. Forgot where. Different speed limits, different gameplay style, one more campy/trade shots, one more speed rushing.

Edited by luxebo, 04 April 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Quote

one-shot lights holding sniper positions.

Thats a bad light.

Quote

Just sit right there on that hill, no one will dare turn that corner.

In a pug game this would work because pugs are like sheep cowering around the corner afraid of the mean wolf. In reality 4 lights is sufficient to get kill dires or set them up to die, which is why many IS premades have started running a number of lights each wave (when they decide not to light rush). It works really well against lines of heavies+ The high alpha dire builds can't move their arms, and have poor torso twist. There's literally nothing they can do about faster mechs that have gotten around their flank or behind them. Virtually all CW maps provide fast or JJ mobile mechs to bypass and circumvent a firing line. Fiddlercrab also has an inbuilt response to anyone foolish enough to try stacking Dires.

I reiterate. There were lots of PUGs stacking dires in CW over the weekend because "it works in solo que it'll work here too!" Then the enemy team (deciding not to be idiots) switches to the other gate and even when I tell the dires "they're switching gamma" they're still too slow to reposition before the attackers are in base.

They're just too damn slow, and properly played CW games are very mobile.

Edited by Lord0fHats, 04 April 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[Sandersson Jankins]

There seem to be very good clan mechs, and very bad ones. The reason you'll see more Stormcrows than Stalkers is that the Stalker fills a different niche, but mostly because IS has several other mechs that are also "meta-tier" or "very good".

Just because you see a lot of one mech doesn't mean it is OP. It means that a large fraction of people find it to be the one they wish to use. Even if a mech is the most powerful in the game, doesn't necessarily mean it is OP.

I think balance is good, does that make me nutty?

[Lord0fHats]

No. I also think balance is good. At the very least, it's in an infinitely better state than it was 2 years ago.

[luxebo]

Lord0fHats, on 04 April 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

Thats a bad light.
In a pug game this would work because pugs are like sheep cowering around the corner afraid of the mean wolf. In reality 4 lights is sufficient to get kill dires or set them up to die, which is why many IS premades have started running a number of lights each wave (when they decide not to light rush). It works really well against lines of heavies+ The high alpha dire builds can't move their arms, and have poor torso twist. There's literally nothing they can do about faster mechs that have gotten around their flank or behind them. Virtually all CW maps provide fast or JJ mobile mechs to bypass and circumvent a firing line. Fiddlercrab also has an inbuilt response to anyone foolish enough to try stacking Dires.
I reiterate. There were lots of PUGs stacking dires in CW over the weekend because "it works in solo que it'll work here too!" Then the enemy team (deciding not to be idiots) switches to the other gate and even when I tell the dires "they're switching gamma" they're still too slow to reposition before the attackers are in base.
They're just too damn slow, and properly played CW games are very mobile.

Maybe I need to go try on the Clan's side for a bit to hold with a bunch of Dires. Trust me, if the pilots can aim at all with those Gauss shots the lights will pop as they go. Saw one group of Dires at one point and so my pug IS team chose to light rush the other side to try to get them. A lot of us died at the gates and only a couple got through, resulting in not too much but at least we got a bunch of turrets and one generator.

Generally the Dires have to pretty much be Gauss Dires, otherwise UAC vomit wouldn't be as effective, etc.

In the end it might be dependent on player skill, but looking at multiple defenses put up by me and my fellow IS men I see Dire Wolf stacking as a good strategy, though Timber-Hellbringer-Crow spam might work better in attack/counterattack strats. I've done multiple successful spams of IS assaults, not only with Vomit Stalkers but with stuff like DDC/Banshee/Kgc/Battlemasters/Victors.

Edited by luxebo, 04 April 2015 - 08:46 PM.

[BourbonFaucet]

Lord0fHats, on 04 April 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

No. I also think balance is good. At the very least, it's in an infinitely better state than it was 2 years ago.

I would agree with this. We finally evolved out of the poptart AC/5 PPC meta.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Xaiier, on 04 April 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Snip

Your post shows your naivete in the field of competition. Any time you pit one human against another, winning is #1, and winners are usually the ones that figure out how to beat the other guy. Human history is rife with it.

This game doesn't give out participation trophies. Nor are you the one allowed to dictate how everyone else plays the game. If seems of all the PvP games on the market, the BT IPs have people like you in excess. Even in TT games it was like that.

Also, since you probably don't know, even the TT has it's own cheesy meta.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 04 April 2015 - 09:46 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quote

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 23h23 hours ago
If Clan players shoot more than 2 they get a 4.0 heat penalty modifier - if IS players shoot more than three they get a 2.8 modifier.

Russ says there is a Ghost Heat glitch with IS Large Lasers,
they only Generate GH on a factor of 2.8 on the 4th Large Laser,
where as all other weapons in MWO Generate GH on a Facor of 4,
so IS-LL have to be upped so they are balanced with all other weapons,

Lord0fHats, on 04 April 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

No. I also think balance is good. At the very least, it's in an infinitely better state than it was 2 years ago.

i agree balance seems good right now,

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 04 April 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

Your post shows you're naivete in the field of competition. Any time you pit one human against another, winning is #1, and winners are usually the ones that figure out how to beat the other guy. Human history is rife with it.

This game doesn't give out participation trophies. Nor are you the one allowed to dictate how everyone else plays the game. If seems of all the PvP games on the market, the BT IPs have people like you in excess. Even in TT games it was like that.

Also, since you probably don't know, when the TT has it's own cheesy meta.

Yup also it depends on Player PlayStyle and Mech,
some players are better with some mechs in a certian Play Style,
i do very well in a Nova(14ERSL), others Cant seem to Make it work,
as due to Heat(ERMLs) or short range(ERSLs),
Edit-Quote

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 April 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[meteorol]

Spheroid, on 04 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Again where is the link for this nerf? I don't read twitter. It sucks because I just bought a 4N out of boredem this week.

Cant link a Quote because i'm on my mobile, but what happened was the following:

1. russ asked if LL ghost beat should be put to two again
2. people said no, if anything quirks in certain mechs are the issue, not ghostheat at 3.
3. russ said good point, maybe a certain Stalker variant needs to get looked at
4. russ said just for clarification, no nerfs planned at the moment.

The last time russ said no nerfs are planned at the moment the TDR-9S was nerfed a month later, so 4N and 9S are 2 mechs, there was one month between his tweet and the nerf, 2+1=3, sooooooooooo half sure that the 4N will be nerfed aswell.

Which is sad because it really doesn't need a nerf. Tanky hitboxes, decent speed if you put a 300+ engine in it, high hardpoints, and mostly energy hqrdpoints make it a strong mech, especially in CW. But the reason you see nothing but stalkers is that it's the only assault lighter than the banshee which doesn't suck.

There is the Zeus which is bad, the Victor who is dead ever since the JJ nerfnuke and quirks far away from making up for it, the awesome aka barn, the battlemaster aka awesome 2.0 and the Highlander which got killed even harder than the Victor.
Aside of the Zeus which is new those mechs are pretty mich extinct from the battlefield. They either have bad hitboxes or bad quirks while both is good on the Stalker.

Edited by meteorol, 05 April 2015 - 01:15 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 April 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

Russ says there is a Ghost Heat glitch with IS Large Lasers,
they only Generate GH on a factor of 2.8 on the 4th Large Laser,
where as all other weapons in MWO Generate GH on a Facor of 4,
so IS-LL have to be upped so they are balanced with all other weapons,

No, the Clan Large Laser group has a multiplier of 4 when they shoot their third laser, not all the weapons in MWO. It isn't a glitch.

[Elizander]

Not so much that 1 mech is too good as there are a lot of other bad ones. As good as the Stalker is, the clans can outrange it with their own ERLL. I'd fault the clans who fight within Stalker optimal range when they have quite a good lead on range if they use their own ERLL. If they insist on packing ERML then even a Raven 4X will leave them in the dust in terms of range.

Stalkers can make ERML clan mechs feel insignificant but switch it up to ERLLs and stay 800m away then you'll be fine.

[Xaiier]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 04 April 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

Your post shows your naivete in the field of competition. Any time you pit one human against another, winning is #1, and winners are usually the ones that figure out how to beat the other guy. Human history is rife with it.

This game doesn't give out participation trophies. Nor are you the one allowed to dictate how everyone else plays the game. If seems of all the PvP games on the market, the BT IPs have people like you in excess. Even in TT games it was like that.

Also, since you probably don't know, even the TT has it's own cheesy meta.

Your dismissive attitude is unappreciated, and it only goes to show how little you really understand.

Winning in this game is a joke, it means nothing, even in CW. If winning really was the end all, people would base cap every time and light rush in CW. They don't though, because they know that it means nothing and it's really boring, and requires almost no skill. Nobody enjoys a 12-0 stomp, those are boring. What is "winning" then? C-bills. In every one of those easy win scenarios, nobody gets any C-Bills and everyone loses. There's no competition and nobody has fun. In this sense, there IS a trophy for participation. The game is even designed in such a way to maximize rewards for fun, even competition where everyone participates. As I said before, using the meta hurts the gameplay because it turns it into a clickfest with no strategy.

But feel free to continue playing your meta so you can be satisfied in your superiority, just know that it's hurting the game as a whole.

Edited by Xaiier, 05 April 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[YueFei]

Xaiier, on 05 April 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Your dismissive attitude is unappreciated, and it only goes to show how little you really understand.

Winning in this game is a joke, it means nothing, even in CW. If winning really was the end all, people would base cap every time and light rush in CW. They don't though, because they know that it means nothing and it's really boring, and requires almost no skill. Nobody enjoys a 12-0 stomp, those are boring. What is "winning" then? C-bills. In every one of those easy win scenarios, nobody gets any C-Bills and everyone loses. There's no competition and nobody has fun. In this sense, there IS a trophy for participation. The game is even designed in such a way to maximize rewards for fun, even competition where everyone participates.

But feel free to continue playing your meta so you can be satisfied in your superiority, just know that it's hurting the game as a whole.

You really can't read, can you?

He talks about taking his inferior guns to shooting competitions. He talks about all the heaps of mechs he owns, including the bad ones, and driving them.

And yet you think all he plays is meta?

Do you even know how to have actual conversations with people? Or do you just like to hear the sound of your own voice? Or, as in the case on a forum, do you post just to be able to read your own posts?

You can't comprehend that a player can use A, B, C, D, and E in a game, having fun with all of them.... and after much experimenting, he can very well declare that 'D' is too powerful relative to A, B, C, and E? And then go and keep playing 'D' while waiting for the game's developers to fix the imbalance? Cuz you realize it's not the players' responsibility to balance the game, it's the developers' developers' developers' developers' developers' developers'.

[xe N on]

As IS only player I say the Stalker 4N need to be nerfed.

Edited by xe N on, 05 April 2015 - 05:44 AM.

[Quxudica]

Xaiier, on 04 April 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

snip

This is why I really wish MWO had a server browser with player created game lobbies. If I could make silly house rule game rooms (think commandos only, or small lasers only or dumb fire lrms only, etc), I'd probably spend all day doing that instead.

Back when I played shooters more often it was these kind of rooms I spent most of my time in. I loved playing matches where everyone was restricted to the worst weapon in the game or something similar. One of my favorites was a sniper rifle only room with the worst rifle and no scope use allowed. Was like bouncing around firing one shot per clip muskets that barely did any damage without a headshot.

/sigh. of course that was back in the day when developers let their player base have a little freedom in how they played the game. These days you either play the way teh developers want you too or you don't play. so no silly rooms. no server browser. no lobbies. cant even choose our own maps.

[Lord0fHats]

It would be pretty sweet if they gave us the option to make our "private game rooms" public so we could more easily engage in silly fights or wacky battles. 12 v 12 all flammers!