123 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

The only proposed change on the board is as follows. 4 IS large lasers fired now generate 4 ghost heat instead of 2.8.

Right now if you fire 4x LLAS they generate 5.88 extra ghost heat, not 2.8.


So I don't think what you are stating here is accurate.

You can check here, on smurfy's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale


What I think they are referring to is the scalar.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[reign]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Right now if you fire 4x LLAS they generate 5.88 extra ghost heat, not 2.8.


So I don't think what you are stating here is accurate.

You can check here, on smurfy's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale


What I think they are referring to is the scalar.

[color=#8899A6]

Russ Bullock [color=#8899A6]@russ_bullock[/color] · Apr 3[/color]
[color=#292F33]

[color=#66B5D2]@[/color]BigTaeng [color=#66B5D2]@[/color]Paul_Inouye we are talking about the penalty multiplier you take on IF you shoot more than 3. Basically 2.8 to 4.0 multiplier
[/color]

[Averen]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

The ERLL has an equal or longer range than the cERLL in over 70 IS mechs, thanks to quirks. Another more than 70 have higher Damage Per Heat after quirks.

Base weapon stats are irrelevant when more than 70 of your mechs have +range quirks, and more than 70 have -heat gen quirks.

You're right.This time I actually confused those stats.

Don't even start with heat gen quirks,tho. They don't outweigh the Clan DHS-advantage. General range quirks also rarely go above 10%.

Quote

More firepower, far less maneuverability. It's a substantial disadvantage. It does mean the Direwolf will generally win a one on one face tanking encounter with any other slow assault; but it's trivially easy to flank and tear apart. I'm not sure how you'd nerf it more; it's already got one of the worst twist amounts and twist speed on the field.

The dire doesn't have less maneuverability than IS mechs with similar engines and armaments. It's ridiculously easy at times to do 1+k damage with that mech in non-cw games.

[Ultimax]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Russ Bullock [color=#8899A6]@russ_bullock[/color] · Apr 3

[color=#66B5D2]@[/color]BigTaeng [color=#66B5D2]@[/color]Paul_Inouye we are talking about the penalty multiplier you take on IF you shoot more than 3. Basically 2.8 to 4.0 multiplier

Yeah dude, they said THE MULTIPLIER.

That's not "2.8 heat to 4 heat".

Otherwise known as a scalar

http://en.wikipedia...._multiplication


So again, what you are saying is completely inaccurate (that means it's wrong).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[reign]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yeah dude, they said THE MULTIPLIER.

That's not "2.8 heat to 4 heat".

Otherwise known as a scalar

http://en.wikipedia...._multiplication

Right. I understand this and this is what clan runs at 3 large lasers. It is not the end of the world for you to wait .5 seconds to fire a second burst.

As I said and you glossed over. 3/3 is cool 6 is bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addition

There was a 2nd part of the conversation.

Edited by reign, 06 April 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Right now if you fire 4x LLAS they generate 5.88 extra ghost heat, not 2.8.


So I don't think what you are stating here is accurate.

You can check here, on smurfy's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale


What I think they are referring to is the scalar.

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/



So, moving from 2.8 (which generates 33.88 heat with 4 or 68.46 with 6) to 4 would increase it a bit.


(7*(.3*2.8)=5.88 (Although the 20% heat quirk would likely cause it to be: ((5.6*(.3*2.8))=4.704....or just the penalty times 20%.

(7*(.3*4)=8.4, a 30% increase.
Stalker 4N would be at 6.72 extra heat.


The effect on 6
7*(.6*4)=16.8 extra heat

As opposed to the current 11.76, same 30% difference.


However...Maths is failing for the 6 LL ghost heat. Smurfy says 26 heat penalty, while I'm not even getting that with the 4 multiplier.

Edit: Reverse Maths! With questionable accuracy!

The 26.46/(.7) gives the penalty of 37.8 extra heat, plus 42

So, unquirked would be 79.8 heat, Stalker 4N's 20% makes that 63.84 heat.


20 DHS has a heat cap of 76.8, so....nothing really changes, other than being at 83% rather than 70%.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 April 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/



So, moving from 2.8 (which generates 33.88 heat with 4 or 68.46 with 6) to 4 would increase it a bit.


(7*(.3*2.8)=5.88 (Although the 20% heat quirk would likely cause it to be: ((5.6*(.3*2.8))=4.704....or just the penalty times 20%.

(7*(.3*4)=8.4, a 30% increase.
Stalker 4N would be at 6.72 extra heat.


The effect on 6
7*(.6*4)=16.8 extra heat

As opposed to the current 11.76, same 30% difference.


However...Maths is failing for the 6 LL ghost heat. Smurfy says 26 heat penalty, while I'm not even getting that with the 4 multiplier.

Maybe because the multiplier is different depending on how many lazors are fired? Just offering a possible explanation, I do not really know for sure.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Maybe because the multiplier is different depending on how many lazors are fired? Just offering a possible explanation, I do not really know for sure.

I did change the 0.3 to 0.6, which should be the number to change...

I don't feel like investigating. Dividing by 70% might be accurate, it gets similar enough numbers. Someone can Maths properly if they choose to.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Stalker 4N would be at 6.72 extra heat.

I know this is hard to fathom but the Stalker 4N isn't the only LLAS using mech in the entire game.

So when an IS mech needs to spend 36.44 heat to fire 20 tons of lasers for 36 damage.

And then I can get into a any clan mech and fire 3x CLPLs doing 39 damage for 37.20 heat.

Then moving the scalar up makes no sense.


Or when I can just grab 6x CERMLAS in any clan mech and do 42 damage for 36 heat.



So why would the IS be penalized higher for doing less damage, that costs more tons to slot?


This would be really dumb.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[Ultimax]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Right. I understand this and this is what clan runs at 3 large lasers. It is not the end of the world for you to wait .5 seconds to fire a second burst.

As I said and you glossed over. 3/3 is cool 6 is bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addition

These are with the current heat scales.

8x MLAS = 40 damage, 39.60 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.01 damage per 1 heat)
4x LLAS = 36 damage, 33.88 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.08 damage per 1 heat)

6x CERMLAS = 42 damage, 36 heat - no Ghost Heat (1.17 damage per 1 heat)
3x CLPL = 39 damage, 37.20 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (1.05 damage per 1 heat)



That's why I ignored the other half.


There is no logical reason that IS mechs using LLAS should be relegated to doing worse damage per heat than clan mechs when they have to invest more tonnage to do less damage in the first place.

Why should IS mechs be relegated to double the face time to fire 3/3 when clan mechs don't need to?



6x LLAS = 54 damage, 68.46 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (0.79 damage per 1 heat)
4x CLPL = 52 damage, 59.20 heat with Ghost Heat Penalty (0.88 damage per 1 heat)
2x CLPL & 4x CERMLAS = 54 damage with no Ghost Heat Penalty (1.23 damage per 1 heat - lol)



Take a look at those numbers, what justification could there be to make the LLAS worse?


Right now it's actually in line with the CLPL, worse than CERMLAS boating and completely inferior to Laser Vomit 2x CLPL + 4x CERMLAS.



"But the Stalker-4N only hits 74% heat when it alphas all 6!!"


https://drive.google...MeUE&authuser=0
https://drive.google...wQ28&authuser=0
https://drive.google...ZMzA&authuser=0

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Mavairo]

6LL stalker is not a big deal.
The problem is the other IS assault mechs...suck ass.

Stalker does nothing that the clans haven't been doing since their release.

Hell it doesn't even do them as well as the clan mechs. One of which weighs ten tons less and travels over 20kph faster.

Look at the other assault mechs for the IS. THERE is your problem. They're all bar none...from the easily hot shot battlemaster, (of all my mechs..this one dies repeatedly the most frequently to head shots... bar none.) with it's mediocre weapon loadouts, to the hapless Fatlas which can't even live up to it's fluff of being retardedly durable.

The King Crab is meh.

The highlander, victor and Awesome? lolollollolololol.

PGI nerfed one mech that had LL quirks in the assault category..the atlas RS. It wasn't even like the RS was particularly powerful. But during that last quirk pass it got a nerf. Because...reasons.

Let's be honest, the real problem is PGI doesn't like IS mechs. They don't want them to get as good as clan mechs. They don't want them to even approach a clan mech that weighs ten tons less either. Because they cost less MC.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Great, they nerf the only Assault I can play....Back to Heavies and the same boring grind...

[reign]

Somebody who knows the numbers please give me these

Burn time on CLan ER large lasers

Heat on Clan ER large lasers x 6

Burn Time on Clan ER Medium lasers

Heat On Clan ER Medium lasers x 6

Burn Time on IS large lasers fired in 2 Bursts of 3

Heat On 2x Bursts of 3 IS large lasers

Thanks in advance!

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Hmm... increasing the multiplier would raise heat on four Large Lasers to 36.40, an increase of 8.4 heat from 5.88, with 20 DHS and 76.8 Capacity.

4 - 36.40 | 47.40%
5 - 47.60 | 61.98%
6 - 58.80.| 76.56%

For the 4N specifically that gets 20% off for LL heat, and using 20 DHS 76.8 Capacity:

4 - 29.12 | 37.92%
5 - 38.08 | 49.58%
6 - 47.04 | 61.25%

Compared to current with the 2.8 multiplier:

4 - 27.10 | 35.29%
5 - 35.06 | 45.65%
6 - 43.01 | 56.99%

[Johny Rocket]

Simple answer(and I may make a thread for this if they do nerf the 4N)
Boycott CW until this BS stops. Let the Clanners play by themselves until they learn to play well with others.

[Dirkdaring]

Eh, I don't see a problem with the 4N like many others here as well. I'll take one on any day of the week in my AC20, AC10, 4ML jager.

[Yokaiko]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Somebody who knows the numbers please give me these

Burn time on CLan ER large lasers

Heat on Clan ER large lasers x 6

Burn Time on Clan ER Medium lasers

Heat On Clan ER Medium lasers x 6

Burn Time on IS large lasers fired in 2 Bursts of 3

Heat On 2x Bursts of 3 IS large lasers

Thanks in advance!

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

[Green Mamba]

Tractor Joe, on 06 April 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

Simple answer(and I may make a thread for this if they do nerf the 4N)
Boycott CW until this BS stops. Let the Clanners play by themselves until they learn to play well with others.

Bingo ....I said this earlier ....only way to straighten this mess out since PGI doesn't want to do it voluntarily

[Johny Rocket]

Green Mamba, on 06 April 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Bingo ....I said this earlier ....only way to straighten this mess out since PGI doesn't want to do it voluntarily

Sorry I missed it, honestly I got half way thru page 2 and couldn't take it anymore. Really hate page after page of gripe even if I do agree.
I have a 4N with 6LL, funny thing is not only is it the weakest of my 3 Stalkers its the lowest alpha to.
Everyone acts like Lrms are dead because of the Hellbringer. I did play the 4N a lot during the last comp but as a good back up for my KTO18s with BAPS and Tag and 10 tons of lrms.
I would alternate in the 5M (50 point alpha) or 3F (71 point alpha).
They 4N beats them at their own game is the only reason we are having this discussion. Or should I say levels the field a bit.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 06 April 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Or when I can just grab 6x CERMLAS in any clan mech and do 42 damage for 36 heat.



This would be really dumb.

So what what common non-assualt builds run 3 LPLs, and the one assault that does runs 4 on an 85 ton chassis.........

So good, SO SO good.


























Not.