167 replies to this topic

[YCSLiesmith]

OP, I am going to tell you straight out: LRMs are a mistake. This game is not balanced so that every weapon has its place. there are multiple weapons that have limited or no use. LRMs are down there at the very bottom, right next to flamers. I implore you to ignore the people itt who say different.

notice how they talk. 'oh he's a new player, he should have fun instead of focusing on doing well.' are you interested in not getting stomped as soon as you start to get the hang of this game and move beyond novice matches? Do you think that winning and knowing you contributed to the team's success is fun? if so, use direct fire weapons. Lasers. Gauss rifles. forget LRMs, strip them off your mechs and sell them asap. they are dead weight that actively harm your team.

Edited by YCSLiesmith, 08 April 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

I am really not fond of saying that, but the Kurita has a point.

Relying on LRMs will condemn you to stay in the steering wheel underhive.

Even for PUG games Lurmishers like Treb, Hunch etc are superior.
And you learn more piloting them instead of the useless assault boats.

If you absolutely insist - take a 10 or a 15 rack as support weapon for an assault Mech. One.
Actually that is a good way to teach the difference.
You will notice the harder the opposition, the less relevant said LRM rack will be.

[TercieI]

Molossian Dog, on 08 April 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

I am really not fond of saying that, but the Kurita has a point.

Relying on LRMs will condemn you to stay in the steering wheel underhive.

Even for PUG games Lurmishers like Treb, Hunch etc are superior.
And you learn more piloting them instead of the useless assault boats.

If you absolutely insist - take a 10 or a 15 rack as support weapon for an assault Mech. One.
Actually that is a good way to teach the difference.
You will notice the harder the opposition, the less relevant said LRM rack will be.

Even that is only for a lesson because the weight devoted to it gimps your build.

[Tesunie]

Barkem Squirrel, on 07 April 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Just think how fast you can get target lock ... with target info gathering, BAP, Artemis, TAG, and the Command console.

Target Info Gathering does NOT make you get faster missile locks.
BAP does NOT make your get faster missile locks.
Command Console does NOT make you get faster missile locks.
All these systems make you get faster data gathering, which is the paperdoll display of damage on your target. It will permit you to be able to see where your target is damaged sooner.

Target Info Gathering only decreases the time needed to get the paperdoll for your target.
BAP will cancel ECM nearby, increase sensor ranges and decrease the time needed to get the paperdoll for your target.
Command Console will increase sensor ranges, increase zoom distance and decrease the time needed to get the paperdoll for your target.

Artemis and TAG (And NARC, but NARC does not stack with Artemis but does with TAG) do decrease the time to gain a missile lock, making you gain locks faster with your missiles.


Just to clarify. These are common mistakes people make with LRMs and missile locks.

[YCSLiesmith]

target info gathering is even less worthwhile with lrms than with other weapons, because you can't aim LRMs at specific components. I can't imagine anything more frustrating than seeing a guy has a cherry red leg, pointing directly at the leg, and then hitting every single part of his upper torso instead

[Tesunie]

Terciel1976, on 08 April 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

Even that is only for a lesson because the weight devoted to it gimps your build.

That depends upon your build, and what you are doing with it. If you have only 4 slots left, but 6 tons left, that could be an LRM10 system and 1 ton of ammo, as you can't fit in 6 DHS into 4 slots. Keeps your direct fire weapons cooler (because you are shooting a little less, instead of doing 4 med lasers or something), and gives you a weapon that can aid your team while you work on gaining direct line of sight for your other weapons.

I actually like having some limited LRMs on my slower mechs, as it takes them longer to typically get into line of sight. They often have the tonnage to handle the mix of weapons, and if someone charges into you think you'll be an easy LRM boat kill, all the better for you as then you can blast them with your direct fire weapons anyway.

Honestly, it depends upon what you are looking for your mech to do. I'm sure I've mentioned already how my Stalker 3F* is designed as a guard mech. That's why it has LRMs on it, so I can (if need be) hang back and protect another member of my team and still help the rest of the team. If anyone gets close to me, I can still protect myself from close combat attacks with my alternate weapons. (If I have no one that needs protecting or another escort, then this design is flexible enough to move as needed around the battlefield. It really likes it when people get within the band of all it's weapons, even if it makes it run hot a little.)
*(This Stalker build has been with me for a long while. It's proven effective before ELO came into the game, and it continues to remain effective even now with ELO in the game. It preforms well in PUG matches, as well as CW matches when I bring it in. It remains one of my best preforming loadouts still, out preforming in kills, assists, damage and k/d over my direct fire loadouts. No, I don't use LRMs on all my mechs. I use all weapons in the game. )

LRMs can be used to provide flexibility and utility to a build. It's up to the player's choice if they wish to use them as a primary weapon, a secondary weapon or not use them at all. They have their effectiveness on the field, and they have their weaknesses. All weapons though have their weaknesses and their strengths. Just seems that LRMs have a larger debate on how effective they are at the given time. (Some people say that LRMs are OP. Others claim they are useless. No one seems to agree on their level of effectiveness, not even the "competitive" players.)

[YCSLiesmith]

That last paragraph is really disingenuous. You'll never see LRMs among the truly competitive players, and the people who say tehy are OP are universally the same people who talk about tryhards or include disclaimers about how they're [Redacted]. You can speak for yourself and say you believe LRMs have their place but please lets not pretend that it is a hotly contested issue. It's not, the vast majority of actual good players will immediately dismiss anyone with LRMs as not on their level. And they'll be right.

your unit has some people who would like to be competitive someday. do they really use LRMs, or encourage anyone to use them?

as for liking to have lrms so you have something to do while you maneuver, this is simply a placebo. you're not going to be doing real damage with a couple of lrm tubes, you'll just feel like you are, it's a nice but ultimately empty pleasure because you believe you're contributing. I suspect you'll find your damage totals dont go up at all compared to the lrm-free version. in fact I'd bet that a stalker with a superfluous LRM would do LESS damage, since you've probably dropped a laser or heatsink for the weapon. Assault mechs take a while to march up to the enemy or the top of a ridge, but when they do they manage to put out massive hurt and drill holes in the enemy. it is the responsibility of lighter, faster mechs to pin their opponents in place and soften them up for the stalker beams or direwolf gauss to wipe them out. LRMs don't really have a place in that system, they just adulterate the power the Assault has.

Edited by GM Patience, 09 April 2015 - 03:13 PM.

[YCSLiesmith]

you mention hanging back and protecting other members of your team, but actually hanging back does the opposite, allowing enemies to safely bring their full firepower to bear on your allies. you'll often find the LRM boat is the last one killed because he's hanging back. then at the end of the match you notice he didn't do any real damage. when you're new, that guy will regularly whine about other people not pulling their weight or dying too fast. the thing is, a big part of this game as an assault is getting into the places where people are getting shot, and soaking up as much of that fire as you can. arm block. torso twist. really tank that damage for your team. a crab or atlas with all blue components is a mech that is not doing its job.

[Tesunie]

What about escorting an Atlas (or other assault) while the rest of the team pushes ahead? My Stalker can escort the other assault, while contributing to the fight still. Then, when the Atlas finally gets in close, so do I. At that time, I can hang back just a little bit (just enough to stay outside 180m) and deal LRM fire, SSRM fire, and med laser fire.

I can also guard an LRM boat (a strange concept to some people) (and try to encourage that boat to be closer to the front lines). Then, if anyone rushes their position, I'm able to protect what may be a valuable asset of the team by protecting him from any stray lights that get in too close.

I can also use said guard mech to train another mechwarrior player. While they are learning, I'm able to contribute to the team still, stay by their side, and be effective within close ranges still to help the new person learn how to play (no matter what weapon system they ma be using).

LRMs also can have the benefit inside a crowded pass, where only some mechs can gain line of sight, and the rest are trying to still push forwards to be able to safely shoot their weapons. LRMs can shoot over these congested areas and contribute to the battle still, meanwhile the front elements are trying to move out to let the middle/back ranks move forwards.

LRMs have utility. This gives them strengths and weaknesses. They provide flexibility to a team, and can be very helpful. Several competitive players have already posted in this thread stating the benefits of LRMs, and acknowledging their weaknesses.


YCSLiesmith, your crusade against LRMs is not welcomed. If you were honesty trying to be helpful here, to new players, you should be making posts relevant to the topic. You can say your peace about your personal war/vendetta against LRMs, but as the topic question is ABOUT LRMs, you should be saying something on the lines of "I don't recommend LRMs, but if you insist on using LRMs this is how you should do it." Advise them against LRMs if that is your thing, but with that advice stated you should then tell them how to use LRMs if they so choose to use them despite your advisory against them.

Here is a hint: Some of us players play this game for fun. Not all of us are competitive, or even care about competition or ELO. Its a game. Many of us treat it as such. With that stated, LRMs can be a lot of fun for some of us. Competitive or not, many of us will use LRMs anyway, and flamers and MGs and... Why? Because its fun.

[InRev]

LRMs are a silent, cancerous killer in a group. Putting LRMs on your mech essentially takes you off of the front lines, due to their minimum range. This means that, when **** hits the fan and your allies are getting pummeled, you can't step in and take some hits for them because your primary weapon system will be useless.

They also require your teammates to put themselves in harm's way in order to "hold locks plz". That additional face time will get your teammates killed. UAVs are only a band-aid and only work against terrible players. Most people, when getting rained on from behind cover, will look up and find that UAV and take it down. NARC is also of limited utility because it's 4 tons, at least, of equipment that could be devoted to something more useful and flexible.

Finally, LRMs actually destroy team flexibility because they are such inflexible weapons themselves. True flexibility comes from stacking direct fire so that each and every member of the team can respond to a situational change as necessary. LRM boats require their teams to carry them, escort them and baby them; at this point in time their damage potential does not even remotely offset their liabilities.

As said above, if you much LRM, do so in a mech that wouldn't be expected to hold a firing line anyway, would be skirmishing on the fringes, and is capable of getting its own locks and re-positioning as necessary: in other words, Hunchbacks, Trebs and maaaaaybe Catapults with JJs.

[Tesunie]

LRM Brawling. Seems to be a thing no one considers or thinks about. It is a thing. It's also one of the best and most efficient ways to use LRMs. (And I'm not the first person to say this.)

All everyone seems to think when they hear "LRMs" is "Sit back and let your team get locks". That is actually the worst way to use LRMs, though it is one way to use them. (I only resort to this use of LRM when I'm on death's door and another hit would probably kill me. Otherwise, I'm brawling with LRMs between 400-200m away from people. Rather stay alive and continue to deal damage, than die and be useless to my team.)

Best way to use LRMs: Get semi-close, get your own locks, and fire away. Either as support to your main weapons, or with significant support weapons for your LRMs. If you are fighting within 300-200m, you can gain lock, shoot, back up, and still typically hit your target even after breaking the lock mid-flight, as you are so close, there isn't much dodging available. Mind, this isn't the only way to use LRMs in a given match, which is why I say they have flexibility and utility. (They can also be used as scare weapons (INCOMING LRMS!), support while you are out of line of sight yourself and working on gaining line of sight, in congested areas where shooting direct fire weapons would endanger your own teammates, etc.)

PS: You guys also think too small. You think on the individual level, not on the greater team level. This is the reason I say a small launcher can do well. If everyone (or most) of your team has just an LRM10 launcher, that could be up to 120 LRMs incoming on a target that only one person has managed to get line of sight to (at that moment). As a team, it does not have to be boated to make it effective. (Just like AMS is more effective at blocking missiles within larger groups than as a single unit.)

[ExoForce]

Nice reading here. How I become LRM boat pilot? I was playing on low-end laptop for one year with 12 frames per second. Could not hit a sheet with lasers or balistics.

New player: Do You have a powerfull rig? If yes, then go balistics or pulse lasers instead, really.
You dont? You enjoy the sound of LRM thunder and/or like to listen Toccata and Fugue in D minor by J.S. Bach during the battles? Then dedicate Your time to study this more then once::

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4341037

LuRM them all.

Edited by ExoForce, 08 April 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Kjudoon, on 06 April 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Best chassis for LRMs by weight class IMHO. CBill purchase only.

Assault (A serious, fast LRMboat)
Battlemaster 1S
Stalkers are notoriously good, but I find them too slow.
Awesomes have all the problems as Stalkers and worse hit boxes.

Heavy (This is a serious LRMboat.)
Orion VA
Mad Dog (if you MUST use a clan mech. ack barf)

Medium (These are LRMishers. You go out and get your locks and don't play passive.)
Kintaro 18 (the best medium, but very very close behind is: )
Kintaro 19
Shadowhawk 2D2
Griffin 3M

Light (these are IS light harrassers, where LRMs add flexibility, and don't boat them)

Jenner F (The 2 missile hardpoint version. great harrasser)
Panther Z or 10K

The Oxide is the best but that is a hero mech and must be bought so I don't recommend it unless you MUST have an LRM light.

Otherwise, you must look at the Kit Fox for clan mechs (ack barf).

[REDACTED]

Edited by Stickjock, 08 April 2015 - 01:24 PM.
non-constructive

[Richter Kerensky]

LRMs can't reliably hit people behind cover without being at the longer ranges of their operation because they'll just slam into the thing someone's hiding behind (and often not even then if the thing they're hiding behind is tall enough), and if someone is out of cover literally any weapon will deal more damage faster other than machine guns or flamers.

LRM boats in critical slots like Heavies and Assaults actively drag down your team and often lead to losses because the kind of positioning you need to take to use LRMs and have them actually hit means you'll need to be behind the rest of your smaller, more easily killed teammates when what you want to be doing as an assault is getting right up in the fray so that your billion points of armor allow you to soak damage for your team and still stay alive, and at those ranges you'll want something more effective than LRMs. Doing this is a much better use of an assault than "whoops it's two to eleven and I'm the last person alive because I was using LRMs, why didn't my team hold locks"

[JC Daxion]

Why is it any time a question about LRM's pop up, the post gets trolled by the same people preaching how they suck at higher levels.. BFD.. they work in pugs, they work at lower levels,, and can make matches fun for said groups..


As stated like always, lower frame rate people can have much success with them, and the same with high ping players that have trouble targeting. And the whole, LRM's must be back 800m away is total crap.. I typically play right near the front lines, LRM's or not. MY biggest worry half the time is getting popped in the back, by some Dual Gauss mech, that is trying to play a "sniper"

But what the biggest miss truth being portrayed here, is if you don't have LRM's you are not hidding in the back.. I can't count the number of times i have seen AC-5, PPC, Gauss, ERLL builds so far from the front lines it is not even funny, and at the end of the match die not even doing 100 damage.

If you wanna use LRM's go for it, If you can contribute to your team, no mater what you use, great.. If you wan't to go into upper level team competition, then join a group, and play the meta stuff, and team builds they want you to run..

TIll then Please for the love of..... Stop trolling every single damn LRM post with the non-competitive, you can't help your team, we will laugh at you crap.. It does nothing to help anyone at all...

[Richter Kerensky]

Because they're a crutch that teaches bad habits you'll have to unlearn if you want to get better at the game. Do you want to be good at the game? My honest advice is to not use LRMs at all and be happy you're getting like 400,000 cbills back when you sell the LRM 20's on whatever mech you just bought that had them as a part of its stock loadout.

[YCSLiesmith]

JC Daxion, on 08 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Why is it any time a question about LRM's pop up, the post gets trolled by the same people preaching how they suck at higher levels.. BFD.. they work in pugs, they work at lower levels,, and can make matches fun for said groups..

I'm sorry you think that thoughtful advice from experienced players is trolling. it isn't at all. LRMs are bad for new players, leading you to learn the wrong habits and capping your skill at a fairly low level. they do not make matches fun, the matches would be just as fun if everyone used actual good weapons. what they do is separate people into victims and predators, and while that's fun for the newbie predator, it's the kind of thing that frustrates new players. [Redacted]

[ExoForce]

[Modo44]

JC Daxion, on 08 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

they work in pugs,

No, they do not. A weapon effective half the time is not actually good, it is purely luck-based. LRMs work randomly, depending on factors entirely out of your hands, like how much ECM is on the other team, how well they take cover, and how well they aim before taking cover. Yes, you can build a better boat to use the random LRM-friendly situations for maximum damage, but it will do exactly nothing to counter the LRM-unfriendly ones where you will do next to nothing, and cry for locks all match. Even LBs are more useful because while they spread like crazy, they allow you to do some damage every match.

[YCSLiesmith]

ExoForce, on 08 April 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Nice reading here. How I become LRM boat pilot? I was playing on low-end laptop for one year with 12 frames per second. Could not hit a sheet with lasers or balistics.

New player: Do You have a powerfull rig? If yes, then go balistics or pulse lasers instead, really.
You dont? You enjoy the sound of LRM thunder and/or like to listen Toccata and Fugue in D minor by J.S. Bach during the battles? Then dedicate Your time to study this more then once::

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4341037

LuRM them all.

this is the only reasonable argument for LRMs. if you're on some ancient pentium 2 from the 90s with AOL dial up, and you absolutely must play Mechwarrior, then sure, LRMs are your best option.