48 replies to this topic

[Modo44]

Romeo Deluxe, on 06 April 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Link?

https://mwomercs.com/clans

The Timber Wolf was the undisputed king of all mechs for half a year before it was 1) nerfed hard, and 2) opened up for Cbills purchase. The Stormcrow and Dire Wolf were close seconds, also available only for real money for many months after release.

[Romeo Deluxe]

I see no statements from Russ there saying the game is pay to win.

[jss78]

I've recently went through the new player's "grind" (about 350 matches in), and I thought I'd share my experience.

I consider MWO a genuinely free-to-play game, in that you can get competitive mechs without paying a cent, only using the virtual c-bill currency and XP earned in-game. However, there's a bit of a grind to earn the required c-bills and XP.

To put some numbers on this, you need somewhere around 30 million c-bills to buy the required three variants of a given mech, with competitive loadouts. Assuming average c-bill earning of 100,000/match, and counting in ~10 million from cadet bonus from the first 25 matches, that's about 225 games played.

The final thing you'll need to make your mechs fully top-notch is to buy "modules" (bits of equipment that boost certain aspects of your mechs) for this. These need to be first "unlocked" by using GXP and then bought with c-bills. You'll need somewhere around 25,000 GXP to unlock the modules a mech can carry -- the module costs vary a lot so that's a ballpark figure. You might earn about 50 GXP per game, so that's 500 games played. By the time you've earned the GXP to unlock the modules you should have the c-bills to buy them too (unless you spent c-bills elsewhere), so here the GXP grind is the limiting factor.

So that's, at a rough estimate, 500 games for three mechs, with full bells and whistles. Equal to about 80 hours of play time at 10 minutes a match. In short, it really is free to play, but the grind is kind of bad and something you should be prepared for.

There's also one big caveat here: all of the above assumes that you work consistently on one chassis, buying the required three variants for that chassis, and unlocking the skills for those. All this will become much slower if you work on a mech, but then decide that it's not a mech for you and switch to another one. With that in mind, I'd strongly recommend trying many of the "trial mechs" and decide what kind of a playstyle, and what kind of weapons you're most comfortable with. Once you've established the above, only then use your hard-earned c-bills on a mech that best caters to your chosen playstyle.

Edited by jss78, 06 April 2015 - 02:36 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

jss78, on 06 April 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

The final thing you'll need to make your mechs fully top-notch is to buy "modules" (bits of equipment that boost certain aspects of your mechs) for this. These need to be first "unlocked" by using GXP and then bought with c-bills. You'll need somewhere around 25,000 GXP to unlock the modules a mech can carry -- the module costs vary a lot so that' a ballpark figure. You might earn about 50 GXP per game, so that's 500 games played. By the time you've earned the GXP to unlock the modules you should have the c-bills to buy them too (unless you spent c-bills elsewhere), so here the GXP grind is the limiting factor.

First off, i agree with all what you said! I also think the grind (and start into the game) is on a darksouls level right now.
I've made an alt some days ago and came to the same conclusion.

As for GXP, luckily we get a lot of it through achivements! i got 4,5k GXP in one game alone for 3 archivements.

Also OP, this might help you:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/194709-cadet-bonus-and-the-start-into-the-game

[Elizander]

Well, I'll speak for myself when I say it isn't. You pay for variety but not to win. Everything comes with time so I'll advise not setting goals too high per sitting unless you get to play a lot. You'll start off learning how to earn decent money by not dying and then you work from there.

While I have poured a decent amount of cash in 3 accounts combined, I do have an account I play which is free. If you spend your c-bills right, you can have a very competent starting mech in less than 50-70 matches, maybe less if you decide to start on a Medium instead of an Assault.

The trial mechs, while people complain about them can be used to moderately good effect if you are familiar with heat management (I personally stay away from the LRM trials or those that have 3+ or more weapon systems). On my F2P account I have a 6 LL Meta 4N Stalker which is one most players are complaining about nowadays. No modules yet but it doesn't really need any to wreck face.

You will have to discipline yourself in spending GXP for the modules you need instead of wasting it as it is hard to accumulate but if you mess up your first account, you can always make a second and do things right. You will always have a nice boost for 25 games for your cadet bonus (not sure if they still give away 1 day free premium to new accounts).

If you take advantage of weekend events then you'll certainly speed up your progress. You can at times get MC in small amounts and save it up for 2x GXP conversion weekends to get all the GXP you'll need as a free player and faction hop in Community Warfare to get your mechbays. Just make sure you deal 600+ damage per match in CW even if you lose you will get decent loyalty points to advance your rank.

[jss78]

LOADED, on 06 April 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

First off, i agree with all what you said! I also think the grind (and start into the game) is on a darksouls level right now.
I've made an alt some days ago and came to the same conclusion.

As for GXP, luckily we get a lot of it through achivements! i got 4,5k GXP in one game alone for 3 archivements.

Also OP, this might help you:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/194709-cadet-bonus-and-the-start-into-the-game

Good point on the GXP through achievements -- forgot about that. Looks like I've actually earned close to 10,000 GXP through achievements in my 350 games, had no idea it was that much. So I guess that "500 games for three fully kitted out mechs" is a somewhat pessimistic or a worst-case estimate,

[B L O O D W I T C H]

jss78, on 06 April 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

So I guess that "500 games for three fully kitted out mechs" is a somewhat pessimistic or a worst-case estimate,

i guess 500 is reasonable, i've estimated around 150 to 200 games with my spider 5d workhorse (100k c-bills per match) to outkit a single heavy (in my case, dragons) with upgrades, XL engine including radar derp and weapon mods (seismic will add up with another 60 games per module).

Of course, it doesn't has to be heavy with xl. STD engine mediums are very valid and cost efficient too (hunchies are cheap and pack a nice punch for their weight).

Edited by LOADED, 06 April 2015 - 04:31 AM.

[AkoolPopTart]

It gives off the Pay2Win impression, but its not. Though it would be nice if PGI would allow people to customize their shotty trial mechs since that is what the game is all about.

[theta123]

i think War thunder is slightly better in its F2P vs P2P players. MWO is great, exept for its mechbays..

But then again, this issent that expensive either. The cheapest MC package gets you 4 mech bays, or 1.75 $ for bay.
Do a one time investment of 30 $ and you have 1.35 per bay. This is still cheaper then WoT and WT. WT relies less on "bays" but if you have to buy one, its more expensive then the rest. Technically you dont even need the bays in WT. But if you want diversity, it does cost alot

[rolly]

I'll just leave this video here:

"Extra Credits - Free to Play Is Currently Broken - How High Costs Drive Players Away from F2P Games"



"...they (PGI) depend on what they call "Whales", ... they make their revenues off of the 10% of the people who spend thousands of dollars on their game" (That would be those of us who are diehard fans, old skool battletech and the tryhards)
etc.)

I honestly believe this game doesn't fall under the F2P business model, nor is it entirely P2W either. Its some mutant bastardized version reflecting a sucky Canadian economy, where everything is overpriced and things are half baked. (Like shopping at WholeFoods)

I personally am not content with the model, and as a customer (buying early on in this game) was thoroughly dissatisfied with the progress (behind schedule and development) and content my initial purchases made, and that shouldn't be the case.

Edited by rolly, 12 April 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[rolly]

theta123, on 06 April 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

i think War thunder is slightly better in its F2P vs P2P players. MWO is great, exept for its mechbays..

But then again, this issent that expensive either. The cheapest MC package gets you 4 mech bays, or 1.75 $ for bay.
Do a one time investment of 30 $ and you have 1.35 per bay. This is still cheaper then WoT and WT. WT relies less on "bays" but if you have to buy one, its more expensive then the rest. Technically you dont even need the bays in WT. But if you want diversity, it does cost alot

The BEST thing about WT is that you can drop 1-3-7$ dollars and get microtransactions. The game is really high quality and offers diverse play. If only they'd stop messing with the game, cut the glaring Russian-bias, Mouse over Joystick-bias. But yes that model they use is more satisfying an experience for F2P

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Yeah, you can skip the camouflage since if you unlock it for a certain 'mech variant it will only be available to that 'mech (and its variants?) and won't be available to any other 'mechs unless you purchase it again.

BUT, feel free to unlock colors for C-Bills or MC because once those are unlocked, you can spraypaint all your 'mechs to your hearts desire. Personally I like the Camo Grey and Rosewood colors 'cause they don't seem as reflective/showy as most the other colors.

Romeo Deluxe, on 05 April 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

Skip camouflage, a bit of a let down. It only unlocks for that mech.

Not sure.. I don't think I'd want someone to rent my vehicle and bring it back equipped with a lift kit raised 3ft off the ground with mudbogging tires, detachable roof and a rollbar. I figure they could use it and when they decide on getting their own vehicle they can do what they want with their vehicle, I'll still be able to use mine. 'specially if I owned a vehicle rental business. "Wonder what our vehicles are going to look like when we retire."

AkoolPopTart, on 06 April 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

Though it would be nice if PGI would allow people to customize their shotty trial mechs since that is what the game is all about.

[aniviron]

Romeo Deluxe, on 06 April 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Link?

It's about 2/3rds of the way through one of the first two town hall meetings. I love you guys and all, but I am not listening to four hours of audio for you on this one.

[grendeldog]

I can obviously only speak for myself, but I find MWO to be one of the few free to play games that actually follows through on the promise of being free, while also allowing real money purchases that don't destroy the fairness of the game. Basically I feel that the current balance between free play and paid content is excellent. I only came to the game a month ago though, so I missed out on some of the more trying times when IGP was still involved.

First I will address the free part: a month into the game, I am now making 200 to 300k per win, and between 75 to 175k per loss. I have been playing enough pick-up games that I can clear a few million per day. This means that I have been able to add modules to my favorite mechs that I own, and recently that I have bought a mech with C-bills to enable me to elite that chassis.

However, I have also bought mech credits. Now, there is an argument to be made that you should not spend real money on this game at all, or limit your purchases to mech bays only, because at some point in the future the servers will be turned off and all the money you spent will have been for nought. This is true in an abstract sense, but it misses out on what should be the number one reason for playing the game - to have fun! In this case I have decided that the fun I have in game is worth a dollar value, and since I save most of my money and do not live a consumer lifestyle, I have the ability to spend some discretionary income if I so desire.

It is also worth making the distinction between spending money on cosmetic items and spending money on things that affect gameplay. A lot of mech credits - and thus actual dollars / pounds / euros / whatever - are spent on paint jobs, warhorns, cockpit items, and so forth. This is the classic method for correctly implementing paid content; Eve Online is another example where there are cosmetic items with no gameplay value that can be purchased with real money. In this way you get a nice revenue stream without any 'pay to win' aspect. The gold-painted mechs are also in this category.

However, mechs, mechbays, weapons purchased via converting MC to C-bills, and modules unlocked by converting mech XP to GXP all do affect gameplay. The important thing though is that all of these things can be purchased with C-bills as well - with the exception of mechbays and XP conversion. Even in those two cases you needn't pay money, because Community Warfare earns you bays and gameplay time itself awards you GXP. The only reason to pay is so that you don't have to spend the time grinding to get these things that affect gameplay. Importantly, there is nothing that you can buy only with real money that you can't get via normal gameplay - hero mechs go for MC only but they aren't better than other variants, just different.

There is a contention that you do have to spend real money because the grind to get mechs, bays, modules, weapons, and engines is excessive, requiring too much time and effort. To that I say that if the gameplay is that much of a grind to you - and thus boring and not fun as implied by calling it a grind - then you probably shouldn't be playing the game in the first place since you don't enjoy the gameplay. I've also heard people say that they would feel like somebody had successfully scammed them if they paid real money for an in-game object such as a mech. That's a valid opinion and I accept that some people may feel that way, but for myself I do not agree, and I'm not going to feel guilty about making such a purchase. I wouldn't make such a purchase without first doing some research, thereby determining that whatever I am considering buying holds enough value to me to justify that expenditure.

Finally, I should point out that if you do decide that this game is fun and that it is worthy of some of your real money, spend that money on mech credits to purchase Mastery packs or buy clan packs directly with dollars. Do *not* spend the money on mech credits to buy individual mech variants; the savings when buying a Mastery pack, clan bundle, or a la carte is enormous. Oftentimes the cost in real money for a bundle is less than half the cost of buying the variants individually - and then you also get a month of premium time and a mechbay for each mech in the pack. It also ensures that you have all of the variants required to bring the chassis to elite level and then master level.

The TL;DR is basically that everybody has to consider their own unique circumstances and then decide for themselves whether they should spend real money on this game. There is nothing you can buy with real money only that is superior to the things you can buy for C-bills. And if you do spend money, buy bundles or clan packs, as the savings is enormous.

[mailin]

I think of it as pay to lessen the grind. It is entirely possible to completely outfit and master mechs without spending any money whatsoever and no matter what others spend, everyone has access to the same stuff eventually, with the exception of certain mechs which are no better, and in some cases are actually worse than their counterparts. Overall this is an excellent value to fun ratio.

[Sadistic Savior]

Rawnblaed, on 05 April 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Nobody lilkes butt roast every day even if you have to eat it sometimes. So as a new player to MWO who has a limited gaming budget and less gaming time than I would like, my question is where does this game fall on the free-to-play spectrum? I am sure there are ppl out there who have played more FTP games than me and have played this game for a decent amount of time who can give me a good idea of how much i really need to spend compared to others they have played.

Paying players pay for flexibility (a few hero mechs have really good hardpoint configs), but mostly for vanity or to avoid grinding. Generally, anything a paid player can get, a free player can also get.

I have paid money for this game, but the only things I've bought were Crab mechs (because at the time you could not buy them for CBills), and vanity stuff (warhorns and camo). Spending money allowed me to be able to play the Battlemaster months before it was available for CBills. I am sure I've spent at least $300 on this game.

It's definitely not Pay to win though. I mastered the Twolf entirely by grinding. And it is definitely the Mech I have had the most success with.

[Mondeza]

I believe that the term "Pay to Win" is being overused these days. If I could go out and buy (for real money) the best items that gave me a complete advantage as they items were not readily available in game then I can agree on "Pay to Win".
Examples (not real world) would be:

• Buying Thunderstruck Trees in AA
  
• Buying Skills in EVE
  
• Buying end game gear in most MMORPG's

A game, any game needs an income stream to exist and while some people have hours and hours of time to game others have to go to the "salt mine" (read work) most of the day or have families. Those that have less time available often have more disposable income to spend and hence keep the games alive for those that either choose not to or are unable to pay to play.

Neither group is better or worse....just different. The issue comes in when there is a "Pay to Win" shout whenever a game enables you to pay to get any sort of advantage no matter how small. Which is incorrect in my opinion. "Free to Play" is also incorrect and a marketing term in my opinion as no game is completely "free to play". There needs to be some sort of income stream to keep the servers up at a minimum.....even if they using proceeds from other games to do it.

This game is one of those very well balanced games that enables them to offer paying content to those that want it without unbalancing the game play in a negative way. They offer more non game content for real money but it in no way unbalances the game or gives paying players an undue advantage.

As everyone has said above the Mechs available for real money are not better than the others. The only plus for paying to play is you get C-Bills faster, Mech Bays and cosmetic items.

Tl:Dr : No MWO is definitely not a "Pay to Win" game.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Am I ******* mad for playing hundred of CW games, plenty of hours into the game, but not having a single mech mastered?

Man, modules and new mechs are expensive! And I've even bought 1-2 with cash! I do at least about 1k damage each CW match, with 1500-1800 being an average "good" match.

If I master mechs, is it really THAT much of an improvement?

[Anunknownlurker]

Pay to win? A big NO. Pay to get more mechs more quickly and paint them pretty colours? Definitely. Pay to get hero mechs to make the grind marginally more bearable? Absolutely. Pay to get shiny new mechs before anyone else? Of course. It's my money, I'll spend it how I want.

Actually that last point may, slightly, support the P2W argument as new mechs may be "better" when they first appear as it takes time for players to learn how to kill them but is that really P2W? I'm not sure.

My son hasn't spent a penny on MWO so far (unlike me) and still kills me every-time running around in his first Jenner; you know why? He's better at this game than I am

Edited by Jimmy DiGriz, 07 April 2015 - 04:10 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Sandersson Jankins, on 07 April 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

Am I ******* mad for playing hundred of CW games, plenty of hours into the game, but not having a single mech mastered?

Man, modules and new mechs are expensive! And I've even bought 1-2 with cash! I do at least about 1k damage each CW match, with 1500-1800 being an average "good" match.

If I master mechs, is it really THAT much of an improvement?

the biggest bonus is eliting a Mech (completing the "elite" skills), with the 4 Elite skills complete the Mech runs faster, cooler and more maneuverable, due to the doubled basic skills and the elite skills, it is most definately worth completing the Elite skills.

Mastering the Mech (unlocking the Master module slot) only allows you an extra Mech/Weapon module so is not very useful until you can afford enough Modules to fully outfit the Mech.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 07 April 2015 - 04:30 AM.