32 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

In addition to the Smurfy-inspired mechlab that Russ has confirmed, there's some important things the Mechlab really needs.

A facilitation of number crunching

The most fun part of any game like MWO, for a lot of people, is the customization. Tinkering and tweaking your mech and finding just the right build for your playstyle. In other MMOs, this number crunching is an even bigger part of the game than you see in MWO.

I remember when I played WOW and seeing people put together different items and skills to get just the right DPS, health, armour value or whatever else. Eventually, Blizzard caught on to this and facilitated it by making it a lot easier to see in-game what your total DPS was, and how much of it was fire damage or ice or... well, it's been many years since I played, so I've forgotten the specifics. But here comes my point. <drumroll>

It's relatively hard to number crunch in MWO.

Since we have Ghost Heat and Quirks, it's a lot harder to estimate just what your mech is capable of. It's not impossible, but the game itself doesn't make it as easy as it should be. For example:

• I have a 20% reduced UAC jam quirk. 20% of what? Where can I find this information?
  
• I have a +8 structure quirk. How much did I have before? How many structure points do the different mechs have?
  
• I have a heat management value of 1.2. What does that mean? How is this calculated?
  
• I have a maximum jump distance of 25 meters. What does that mean? Is that the horizontal distance I can jump if I run at full speed with speed tweak (plus extra speed quirks)? Or is it how far I jump when standing still? Wouldn't maximum altitude be a more useful statistic?
  
• The damage value for a mech is only measured in alpha strike potential. How useful is that measurement? Some mechs may have big alpha strikes and long cooldown, others have small alphastrikes and short cooldowns. Wouldn't it be useful to also have a stat like "Maximum sustained DPS" or "How fast can this mech do 200 damage on a map with 0 degree temperature"? Something to illustrate how much firepower it has in a sustained firefight?
  
• What is the total range of all my weapons, or the total cooldown, or the total heat, when you factor in quirks and modules? Is there any easy way to see these numbers without going to smurfy.net?

Now mind you, these are rhetorical questions. My point is simply that the fun element of number crunching (e.g. trying to come up with crazy builds that use the synergy of matching quirks and modules, for example) kind of diminishes when it's a bit of an ordeal to actually find the numerical values. Yeah, you can go into testing grounds and try it out manually, but that's not the same.



I think the Mechlab should have a function where you install a weapon on a mech, you install the proper quirked omnipod (for Clan mechs), you install a module. And each time you do this, you can see the Mech stats being updated to factor in all these things. To me, that's what the word "Mech-lab" implies.

Thoughts? Are we already getting all this, perhaps? Did Russ or Paul mention it in some forum post or podcast I'm not aware of?

EDIT: Update:
I've made a layout suggestion. Click here for explanation.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 08 May 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[FupDup]

Min-max ALL the things!

[Burktross]

Yes, I want to be the king of all min-maxing-- the lord of the munchkins-- the most powerful of the powergamers! And by God, I will do this, through ACCOUNTING SCIENCE MECH SCIENCE!

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 08 April 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Min-max ALL the things!

The current "HOT BUILDS" on Smurfy today have been Urbanmechs with 2 PPCs or 3 ER LLs.

[Mcgral18]

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

• The damage value for a mech is only measured in alpha strike potential. How useful is that measurement? Some mechs may have big alpha strikes and long cooldown, others have small alphastrikes and short cooldowns. Wouldn't it be useful to also have a stat like "Maximum sustained DPS" or "How fast can this mech do 200 damage on a map with 0 degree temperature"? Something to illustrate how much firepower it has in a sustained firefight?

As a matter of fact, MGs and Flamers have their damage over 5 seconds (4 for the MG, 0.35 Flamer) due to the fact they are the only constant fire weapons.

[dubplate]

I think some more numbers would be good but I don't think the damage would tell you as much from pure numbers unless you're using all lasers/ballistics. Does your 200 damage output time include jamming of a UAC, are you firing all weapons or just certain ones? Mixed ranges will always be different (though the loadouts tend to favour a single range). It would be nice to know your heat threshold and dispersion rate at a quick glance (taking into account your skills for the mech), it may save some time in the testing grounds to figure out the build won't work. Also being able to see the quirks in more places than when you hover over in the mechlab would be better.

[Alistair Winter]

dubplate, on 08 April 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

I think some more numbers would be good but I don't think the damage would tell you as much from pure numbers unless you're using all lasers/ballistics. Does your 200 damage output time include jamming of a UAC, are you firing all weapons or just certain ones? Mixed ranges will always be different (though the loadouts tend to favour a single range). It would be nice to know your heat threshold and dispersion rate at a quick glance (taking into account your skills for the mech), it may save some time in the testing grounds to figure out the build won't work. Also being able to see the quirks in more places than when you hover over in the mechlab would be better.

I'm open to suggestions, of course. But with such a complex game, you can't give as universally relevant numbers as DPS in your typical MMORPG.

I think you'd have to use the statistical average damage of the UAC, and you'd use optimal range for all weapons, because most builds have a range where all weapons are in optimal or near optimal range. There are some exceptions, like LRMs and small lasers, but how often do you see that combination of weapons?

Sustained DPS (e.g. how much damage can you do per second without ever overheating) isn't really that useful, because it's so far removed from reality. While few people just alphastrike continuously, it's still useful to know what your alphastrike is.

So yeah, I'm open for alternate stats that would be more useful than the 0-200 model.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 08 April 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

As a matter of fact, MGs and Flamers have their damage over 5 seconds (4 for the MG, 0.35 Flamer) due to the fact they are the only constant fire weapons.

Please, stare at my mech for 5 seconds. I'll treat you well...

[Apnu]

Yes, we need a place, in game, to see quirks easily.

Also, my dream, is to be able to look at my mechs, maybe even config them, Smurfy-style, through some kind of web portal when I'm not in game. Wouldn't it be awesome if we could mess about with our assets out of game? Sure would make the commute to work in the train more interesting.

Deathlike, on 08 April 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Please, stare at my mech for 5 seconds. I'll treat you well...

I do that, but I stare at your mech's butt.

[627]

and if you're at it:


Does anyone "uses" those graphs for anything? I get the up-down and yaw and all, but first, it is so tiny and second you can't compare with another mech.

And on that diamond is the worst, i have no idea what it tries to tell me or how to use it.

[Mechteric]

627, on 08 April 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

And on that diamond is the worst, i have no idea what it tries to tell me or how to use it.

Yep, the diamond means nothing, though I think the biggest problem with it is the "firepower" number, which currently maxes out at like 200 or more. But the thing is that most reasonably powerful mechs only cap out around 70 or 80, so clearly the scale for the firepower number is completely misleading (or just plain pointless). Alpha damage and DPS are two much more important numbers.

[Deathlike]

627, on 08 April 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

and if you're at it:


Does anyone "uses" those graphs for anything? I get the up-down and yaw and all, but first, it is so tiny and second you can't compare with another mech.

Well.. I struggled to figure out the graph honestly. Having gotten the new set of omnipod quirks though.. you can see "some changes" to the graphs.

The Y-scale shows what the value happens to be with your driving speed (50% speed, 100% speed).

The X-scale shows what the value is @ 3 levels of speed... 33%, 66% and 100% of your top speed.

For turn speed, you turn slower when you are going really fast. That should be apparant.

I honestly can't figure out the Accel/Decel values... but the more acceleration you have, the graph should "slow down" when passing 2/3rds (66%) of the top speed. When you add the quirks, you move the graph more towards the right... whereas when you don't have said quirks, you move the graph towards the left. It's hard to explain other than "more acceleration should get you to top speed ASAP". Same occurs with Deceleration.

I hope that's helpful, but many of the things on the info are useless.

HOWEVER, the torso twist speed values ARE important. When you compare a Mist Lynx to a Cicada or even Panther, you'll see how inferior the Mist Lynx is at torso twisting EVEN with the quirks involved.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

• I have a heat management value of 1.2. What does that mean? How is this calculated?

If I remember right (which I probably don't) it is how many alphas you can make within 10 seconds and have all the heat bled off but also giving heat sinks diminishing returns (even SHS) for whatever reason. Me and a few others discovered a more accurate equation but I have since lost it because regardless it doesn't have a more contextual meaning.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 08 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

I honestly can't figure out the Accel/Decel values... but the more acceleration you have, the graph should "slow down" when passing 2/3rds (66%) of the top speed. When you add the quirks, you move the graph more towards the right... whereas when you don't have said quirks, you move the graph towards the left. It's hard to explain other than "more acceleration should get you to top speed ASAP". Same occurs with Deceleration.

The graph shows the acceleration values for that speed. For a simple explanation, it is faster to accelerate from 0-60 than from 60-120. Same with deceleration, going from 60-0 takes less time than 120-60. Quirks only add a % to the curve rather than a flat rate so the curve steepens and has a higher starting point with quirks than without.

The interesting thing is with the quirks, the Nova has acceleration on par with the SCrow now and actually has better deceleration. Though its turn speed even after quirks is still a little depressing especially since this problem would be solved by decoupling accel/decel/turn rates from engine ratings...

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 08 April 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 April 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

The graph shows the acceleration values for that speed. For a simple explanation, it is faster to accelerate from 0-60 than from 60-120. Same with deceleration, going from 60-0 takes less time than 120-60. Quirks only add a % to the curve rather than a flat rate so the curve steepens and has a higher starting point with quirks than without.

Sure, I can buy that.. I think.

Honestly, graphs are not my strong suit... I just like moving the shape around with the quirks.

Quote

The interesting thing is with the quirks, the Nova has acceleration on par with the SCrow now and actually has better deceleration. Though its turn speed even after quirks is still a little depressing especially since this problem would be solved by decoupling accel/decel/turn rates from engine ratings...

Well, the Nova would be naturally slower because of the engine cap. Why need to accelerate faster if you're going as fast as a Timberwolf?

Although, I think Accel/Decel is still hampered by tonnage IIRC. It is the reason why the Ice Ferret wasn't as agile as a natural Light going @ the same speed.

So, it is what it is though.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

The current "HOT BUILDS" on Smurfy today have been Urbanmechs with 2 PPCs or 3 ER LLs.

I knew it would happen, because ballistics require huge initial tonnage investments and 30 ton mechs have very little tonnage to spend...it was inevitable. MWO's requirements for more ammo than usual don't really help. Not even Light ACs or Protomech ACs fully solve the issue, but they would at least help...

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 08 April 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

I knew it would happen, because ballistics require huge initial tonnage investments and 30 ton mechs have very little tonnage to spend...it was inevitable. MWO's requirements for more ammo than usual don't really help. Not even Light ACs or Protomech ACs fully solve the issue, but they would at least help...

It's being discussed in other threads, but whether you blame convergence, lack of punishment for overheating, laser vomit or low ammo count per ton, the fact is... laser vomit, gauss and UAC5 boating rules. People thought the sky was going to fall down if we ever saw a 100 ton mech with dual AC20s in MWO, but I hardly ever see those builds at all. You see Dire Wolves boating UAC5s, but never UAC20s or LB20Xs. Nor do you see Blackjacks with their stock dual AC2 config, or any Clan mechs below 50 tons that regularly mount ballistic weapons above MG size.

Ballistics are not in a good place right now, in my opinion.

But that's by the by.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

It's being discussed in other threads, but whether you blame convergence, lack of punishment for overheating, laser vomit or low ammo count per ton, the fact is... laser vomit, gauss and UAC5 boating rules. People thought the sky was going to fall down if we ever saw a 100 ton mech with dual AC20s in MWO, but I hardly ever see those builds at all. You see Dire Wolves boating UAC5s, but never UAC20s or LB20Xs. Nor do you see Blackjacks with their stock dual AC2 config, or any Clan mechs below 50 tons that regularly mount ballistic weapons above MG size.

Ballistics are not in a good place right now, in my opinion.

But that's by the by.

Ballistics being amazing would help, but you still have to just find the weight to invest for them in the first place. Lights just aren't built for high-tonnage payloads, sadly. :\

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 08 April 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Ballistics being amazing would help, but you still have to just find the weight to invest for them in the first place. Lights just aren't built for high-tonnage payloads, sadly. :\

AC2s?

Haha, preemptive nerf strike!

[Throat Punch]

I would like to see a "dps meter" in my cockpit that shows the damage done by individual weapons kinda like this (replacing spells with weapons) so i can see how much damage i'm putting out with each weapon. But thats just me...