143 replies to this topic

[Rhaythe]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Fine, let's just quirk the VTR-9S and SMN-B pods to that level.

My guess is you have a pre-visualized alpha score or number of weapons you want equipped on this particular mech that you've discovered it cannot support. Some mechs just cannot be shoved into a particular role. It's just not going to happen. Atlases will always make piss-poor LRM boats, for example, a role better left to the XL Stalker.

I think you've discovered a limitation with the Victor and Summoner in that it's just not going to perform the role you expect it to to your satisfaction. Maybe that's a game design fault; but I believe it's more likely that you're expecting too much of underperforming chassis types.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

The if the Highlander magically had its capability back when it was at the top (fast PPCs, good JJs) it would still not be competitive in this age of quirked lasers and Clan mechs, but whatever I know no one will ever believe that because they are incapable of understanding how positioning makes jump sniping impossible without exposing yourself to oncoming fire, especially in a slow Highlander.

No crap sherlock that you have to be exposed to use direct fire, the issue was that it reduced the exposure window. Falling through the air is faster and harder to track than a mech moving in reverse to get back behind their cover of choice. Big bulky mechs like that Highlander especially benefit from the smaller window.

It's this mechanic that caused PGI to nerf JJs an uncountable number of times and make them craptastic outside of lights or maybe mediums.

They should have just done something like have the cockpit shake continue for like 0.5 seconds after releasing the spacebar, and then the exposure time advantage would be removed, so then PGI would no longer have to live in fear of reviving the toaster pastry meta. Then we could finally have JJs that were strong for purposes other than sniping wars.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Because we should be forced to take FS9s and Huginns if we want to play that style.

Fine, let's just quirk the VTR-9S and SMN-B pods to that level.

Not what he's saying. He said it's not the ride for you. I want to play lights as good as I do Assaults... But I can't. I also don't jump like I've seen others do... (Heck even on TT I don't use Jumpers much).

You don't see me asking for rule changes to make it so I can be good doing something in the game. I found what I can do, and I do it!

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Read your lore, Joseph. There are plenty of examples of mechs scoring hits while in the air. You can't have it both ways.



The Spider comment was sarcasm in response to someone saying Spiders should run even hotter with jump jets.

There's enough heat management from dealing with multiple SRM racks and lasers already. The Victors and Summoners already force you to deal with more penalties than other mechs, let alone other brawlers, even before you account for jump jets. Jump jets are their one advantage. And instead it's been turned into an even bigger disadvantage. They're basically non-viable in the same way that SRM brawlers weren't viable against jumpsnipers in a brawl because the AC5/PPC loadout was still very effective at close range.

I figured as much with the Spider.

Again, the problem is not a fault in the game, the problem is a fault in your skill set. I use multiple Mechs with JJ, Lights, Mediums and Heavies, and I actually have MORE heat issues with my Lights, but that is due to MY inability to manage the heat in them, far faster paced combat than in my Mediums and Heavies, purely a ME thing, that's it.

I acknowledge this and do NOT want the heat management of the game changed because I refuse to change my own skill set to work properly with the game's dynamics.

YOU want the heat management of the game changed because you refuse to learn a new skill set.

You can't make the build work, that is on you, not the game, you need to get that sorted out before you go any further. Trying to get game mechanics changed because YOU can't do something is...what is the word....

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

And stop quoting TT. If this was TT we would roll dice to see where our weapons hit. That is Battletech, not MechWarrior.


Even in MechCommander 2 my pilots shoot while in the air all the time.

I'll stop quoting TT when you stop using past games as a reason to continue. Is that fair?

[Rhaythe]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

And stop quoting TT. If this was TT we would roll dice to see where our weapons hit. That is Battletech, not MechWarrior.

How I read this:

"Stop trying to shove BattleTech into my Mechwarrior game!!"

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'll stop quoting TT when you stop using past games as a reason to continue. Is that fair?

Doesn't TT qualify as a past game?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about PPC MeiSoo. There isn't a lot of mass in a PPC blast.

I included PPCs because they are very FLD. I figure beam weapons wouldn't upset flight because their beam duration would make them more difficult to JJ with. Poptarting would still be a big issue if PPCs caused no "crashing" chance.

Its more of a balance decision than actual lore.

P.S. this is also assuming that we also keep reticule shake when JJs are fired.

[Rhaythe]

FupDup, on 09 April 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Doesn't TT qualify as a past game?

Ohhhhh, snap!

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yeah, I know I'm the minority here on the forums, but its pretty sad that a 30 pt alpha can strike so much fear but 50-90 pt alphas are just fine.

Oh this confuses the crap out of me as well. The power of a single Gauss Round on TT is just plain scary to Mechs with double the armor!!! It boggles the mind.

[Koniks]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

I figured as much with the Spider.

Again, the problem is not a fault in the game, the problem is a fault in your skill set. I use multiple Mechs with JJ, Lights, Mediums and Heavies, and I actually have MORE heat issues with my Lights, but that is due to MY inability to manage the heat in them, far faster paced combat than in my Mediums and Heavies, purely a ME thing, that's it.

I acknowledge this and do NOT want the heat management of the game changed because I refuse to change my own skill set to work properly with the game's dynamics.

YOU want the heat management of the game changed because you refuse to learn a new skill set.

You can't make the build work, that is on you, not the game, you need to get that sorted out before you go any further. Trying to get game mechanics changed because YOU can't do something is...what is the word....

The SMN, VTR, and QKDs except for the 5K have no role in this game then. Because it's the mechanics that make them useless. The WVR-7K and GRFs barely have a place, and both are better without jumpjetting.

A TDR-5SS outclasses them all and it's not particularly close.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 09 April 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

No crap sherlock that you have to be exposed to use direct fire, the issue was that it reduced the exposure window. Falling through the air is faster and harder to track than a mech moving in reverse to get back behind their cover of choice. Big bulky mechs like that Highlander especially benefit from the smaller window.

It's this mechanic that caused PGI to nerf JJs an uncountable number of times and make them craptastic outside of lights or maybe mediums.

They should have just done something like have the cockpit shake continue for like 0.5 seconds after releasing the spacebar, and then the exposure time advantage would be removed, so then PGI would no longer have to live in fear of reviving the toaster pastry meta. Then we could finally have JJs that were strong for purposes other than sniping wars.

Well, I don't think I wrote that 100% correctly.

I meant that if you are smart, you will position your mech so if someone wants to jump snipe you, they will have to land outside of cover, which makes the window long again.

Also, unless a mech is just standing there, having that limited exposure window also means you have a limited time to line up your shot.


Whatever though, I didn't want to go down this road and am mainly arguing on principle, because someone said something about jump sniping and how jumping a sniping shouldn't be in the same sentence or something.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'll stop quoting TT when you stop using past games as a reason to continue. Is that fair?

Of course, I only quoted a past game because people quoted TT

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 09 April 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Doesn't TT qualify as a past game?

Well played!

[Gas Guzzler]

Rhaythe, on 09 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

How I read this:

"Stop trying to shove BattleTech into my Mechwarrior game!!"

Is that why we roll dice to shoot?

And we move by hex's?

And we have turn-based gameplay?

And lasers always only damage one component?

And ECM works how it did in TT?

And we have double armor values?

And heat scale?

And ghost heat?


You are so right, we are playing Battletech, not a MechWarrior game.

I'll leave it to you to explain how all past MechWarrior games followed TT rules to the dot.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 April 2015 - 11:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

Whatever though, I didn't want to go down this road and am mainly arguing on principle, because someone said something about jump sniping and how jumping a sniping shouldn't be in the same sentence or something.

I said it. And I said it cause sniping is a very very precise shot from a stable firing position. Thus Jumping and sniping are oximoronic. They cannot be done together.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Is that why we roll dice to shoot?

And we move by hex's?

And we have turn-based gameplay?

And lasers always only damage one component?

And ECM works how it did in TT?



You are so right, we are playing Battletech, not MechWarrior.

You are right. See a MechWarrior, is the person in teh Mech. What do you do outside the Mech? What is your MechWarrior's hobbies? His history?

We are playing realtime BattleTech not MechWarrior.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 April 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[Koniks]

MechCommander would be realtime BattleTech. Or even the BattleTech game for Genesis.

This is BattleTech FPS.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[RedDevil]

Jump jets need more thrust. Heat isn't the problem with them now. They need to be fun again.

Edited by reddevil, 09 April 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

We could always use the MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries philosophy to loadout a mech.

Saw a let's play where someone wanted to take a Catapult with LRMs. Since arms were easy to shoot off, he stuck 6 or so launchers in the torsos to better keep the launchers protected. You can see how wrong that is.

In Mechcommander, put whatever you want in a mech. Just drag it in there as long as the tonnage is there, you can run it. You couldn't add JJs (you need a JJ version of the mech and all mechs had a JJ version).

I love MechWarrior Games and Mechcommander, but they did whatever the heck they wanted. I like the "more" TT approach even if it isn't perfect or has quirks or balance issues.

[Y E O N N E]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about PPC MeiSoo. There isn't a lot of mass in a PPC blast.

But, at least in lore, it's firing that tiny mass near light-speed so there is an energy equivalency to some massive slug at some velocity.

That said, I'm not sure how I feel about JJs. I don't use them a whole lot. I have the locked set on my Mist Lynx, a quintet on a Firestarter collecting dust, and then a single jet on two of my four Blackjacks. That's it. I only have them on the Blackjack to cheat the net-code with, and having no heat penalty at all on it would mean I can just bounce around and fire non-stop. While it's already something of a d*ck-move to be abusing the animations, I think that would be crossing the line too far.

I would rather they totally redo JJs. They should be moving you laterally more than they move you vertically. It should be a single button-press that jumps you some lateral distance proportional to the number and class of jets you have equipped, and it should follow a parabolic arc. No more using them to ridge-peak or pop-tart.

[Max Liao]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

We are supposed to be playing realtime BattleTech not MechWarrior.

Fixed that for you.