359 replies to this topic

[Hunson Abadeer]

Jaroth Winson, on 12 July 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Wrong.

First, let's parse this out to avoid mixing arguments.

Point 1: The Clans' warrior caste was only 110,000 people in 3062. Accounting for Clans Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat and population growth numbers from Warriors of Kerensky, you are only looking at about 95,000 warriors in 3050. The Com Guard actually could field more combatants of all sorts than the Clans.

Point 2: The Clans had front-line units involved in the actual invasion of the Inner Sphere, and it is those units that I was discussing. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the other invading Clans would have much larger invasion forces than Clan Wolf as they competed for the right to invade, and I cannot recall a single account of the Wolves bidding lower than everyone else by a drastically wide margin. Once the numbers are crunched, the Com Guards could field as many, if not more, 'Mechs than were in the front-line units of the invading Clans by any reasonable estimate, as I said.

Second, Field Manual: Warden Clans is set in 3061. The full quote for Clan Ghost Bear should be, "The Clan has assembled this massive army through slow and steady build-up. Having kept full-scale conflict to a minimum after Tukayyid, we have not suffered the setbacks of our neighbors in military hardware" (pp. 85). It also says that the Ghost Bears possess "five front-line OmniMech Galaxies" (Ibid.). Invading Clans shows only three front-line Galaxies after Tukayyid, which had 12 Clusters: Alpha, Beta, and Delta (pp. 38-40). Those same Galaxies had just 13 Clusters in 3062 (Warden Clans, 88-90). Rho Galaxy was tasked with homeworld defense during the invasion, and Omega Galaxy was not formed until 3055 (Ibid., 91-92). The rest are second-line units.

Finally, Clan Smoke Jaguar cut their bid from 11 to 3 Galaxies, but what does that prove? Alpha Galaxy was gutted on Tukayyid, and Epsilon moved up after Tukayyid according to Invading Clans (pp. 72). They had 9 Galaxies with 35 Clusters during Operation Bulldog in 3059, but that is still beside the point as their entire Touman was not part of their front-line units for the invasion of the Inner Sphere. On Point 2, I was comparing the number of Com Guard 'Mechs to the likely total number of 'Mechs among the front-line units of the invaders, and "front-line" in this sense means units involved in the Inner Sphere as used in Invading Clans rather than "front-line" units as used in Warden Clans and Crusader Clans, which means any unit comprised of better warriors and equipment.

[grimzod]

Riffleman, on 01 July 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

To those who know the lore, how did this work. How did the inner sphere manage to hold on? Did they outnumber the clans in general? The clans had huge advantages:

1. Suprise. Struck hard and fast before the inner sphere even knew of their existance.

2. suposedly superior troops. Bred to wage war, with superior genes.

3. Far more advanced technology. Everything that the clans had was superior to the inner sphere version, and had technologies lost to them.

So how exactly did they survive that first war?

Bad writing.

[Tolan Grimm]

Thorn Blackwell, on 01 July 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

The Inner Sphere used the tubies "Code" against them, and that's it in a nutshell. The story is worth reading in the Lethal Heritage, Blood Legacy, Lost Destiny trilogy.

Great books. If you can find all the Michael Stackpole books, read em! If he was brought on board to help craft certain things in this game, why, I'd wet myself . . .

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Point 2: The Clans had front-line units involved in the actual invasion of the Inner Sphere, and it is those units that I was discussing. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the other invading Clans would have much larger invasion forces than Clan Wolf as they competed for the right to invade, and I cannot recall a single account of the Wolves bidding lower than everyone else by a drastically wide margin. Once the numbers are crunched, the Com Guards could field as many, if not more, 'Mechs than were in the front-line units of the invading Clans by any reasonable estimate, as I said.

If you are only referring to the front-line units, then yes, I concede that the ComGuards had more units than the Clans.

Well argued sir.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 July 2012 - 04:08 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Jaroth Winson, on 13 July 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

If you are only referring to the front-line units, then yes, I concede that the ComGuards had more units than the Clans.

Well argued sir.

[Chuggernaut]

Tolan Grimm, on 12 July 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Great books. If you can find all the Michael Stackpole books, read em! If he was brought on board to help craft certain things in this game, why, I'd wet myself . . .

Have you read them since you were 15? They don't hold up. I shudder every time I see Stackpole type a quotation mark.

[Burnsidhe]

Logistics. That's why the Clans failed.

They didn't invade with all the force they could have fielded. They didn't have the supply lines. They didn't have the factories and infrastructure.

Basically, they were counting on a lightning drive to take Terra and then declaring their IlKhan to be the new ruler of a revived Star League.

Amateurs, in other words.

[Gherrek]

A big list of Logistics, doctrine, tactics, numbers, politics (internal and external) a willingness NOT to adapt to an enemy and more.

If the Clans had used all their forces, not been devided between Wardens and Crusaders, if they had not hamstrung themselves with stupid things like bidding away forces and holding back their biggest guns, Warships and if they had adapted instead of going:

[Random Clan Mechwarrior] Dear god! We're getting hammered by their artillery...maybe we should get some of our own?
[Random Clan Star Captain] HERESY!!!! *BLAM*

THen they could have won, but the whole idea of "We own Terra! You all follow us now!" and the expectation that the rest of the Inner Sphere would just go "Okay!" and fall in line is weapons grade, fully rigged, sea going retarded.

[Thorgar Wulfson]

The clans were fighting themselves and in the end they were beaten by thier own culture. The IS proved that experience beat breeding once they knew what they were facing.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Bullshit. Even after the "surprise" wore off, the IS was still outclassed. The victories they had were few & far between. The pause of the Year of Peace changed a lot.



Era Report 3052 - Pg.14

Even after that, all ComStar could do was what? Buy more time.



Era Report 3052 - Pg.18



Era Report 3052 - Pg.21

The Clans were learning from their logistical mistakes. Wolf, Ghost Bear & Jade Falcon at least.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 15 July 2012 - 07:09 AM.

[Chuggernaut]

Wolf never really learned from its logistical mistakes. This is because the people calling the shots didn't want to at first, and then when Vlad took over, he was... well, your average dumb Clanner who gets put in charge because of his capacity for violence, not his intelligence. That's why they get in so much trouble in the Jihad, because even in the 3060s all their manufacturing was based in the Clan homeworlds. Then when everything goes nuts there, they're like "OMG we need literally anything because we have no mech factories suddenly!"

Edited by Chuggernaut, 16 July 2012 - 12:20 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Not sure where you are getting your info from but it is clearly inaccurate. Wolf was the only clan during the invasion up to & including Tukayyid, that handled their logistics efficiently. It is in the source material. Also Vlad was not an "average dumb Clanner". He made some damn intelligent moves. If you wish details, please ask & I will gladly provide them.

[Brakkyn]

They didn't win because that's the way the writer's decided to develop and conclude the plot. /rimshot, but no applause

The entire story was meant to prove this point, I think: the Star League (the original) was designed to be humanity united under a common banner with the intent to improve humanity as a whole. While this didn't always prove true, it was the idea that people admired.

The Star League Defense Force (commanded by guess who) was the protectors and defenders of the Star League, and therefore humanity, not only from outside but from inside (the Star League member states weren't all necessarily loyal for their own reasons). After the Amaris Civil War (don't tase me for saying that name, Clanners!) the cracks began to widen among the Houses and the rifts between the future Successor States began to re-emerge.

Kerensky couldn't keep the Star League from collapsing, so he left, and took all who would go with him. He didn't want the SLDF dragged into yet another war, this time with itself, which might see the Army divided among political lines and ultimately destroyed. He disappeared with the idea of "someday...", in the hopes of later returning, but until then, the Star League and its principles would be preserved.

...and for a time they were, but same old, same old happened and what was happening in the Inner Sphere inevitably happened on the Pentagon Worlds. Alexsandr died; Nicholas took over. For various factual and assumed reasons, everything changed. There was no more Star League; only the Clans. They weren't the same thing. And a few hundred years later, those Clans invade the Inner Sphere.

What inevitably halted the Clan Wars? The Star League (the second one), or at least the idea of it: humankind united to stop an outside invader (the irony of this isn't lost on anyone, I don't think). The ways of the Clans were so foreign to those still in the Sphere they may as well have been aliens. Inevitably, the Star League fulfilled its intended purpose.

I could go on about numerous things (mostly opinions) but I think my point was made about the OP's original question.

[Chuggernaut]

Jaroth Winson, on 16 July 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Not sure where you are getting your info from but it is clearly inaccurate. Wolf was the only clan during the invasion up to & including Tukayyid, that handled their logistics efficiently. It is in the source material. Also Vlad was not an "average dumb Clanner". He made some damn intelligent moves. If you wish details, please ask & I will gladly provide them.

The entries for Wolf mechs from the Jihad era, like the Tundra Wolf and Blood Reaper, keep harping on how Clan Wolf's only manufacturing facility in the Inner Sphere was on Tamar, and when Tamar was scoured from orbit and then the Clan Homeworlds were cut off, Wolf damn near collapsed. It's one of the major plot threads for Clan Wolf during the Jihad era: Neither Ulric, nor Natasha, nor Vlad ever built up industry in the OZ and when Tamar got hit the Wolves were screwed.

Edited by Chuggernaut, 16 July 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Fl3tcher]

Err . . because the guys who created the game, didn't want them to

Really, it's as simple as that.

[RhymenoserousRex]

Stupidity. Read the books. Every clan leadership meeting is chock full of some of the dumbest bullshit you have ever seen.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Please elaborate.

[Chuggernaut]

The Clan system isn't designed to elevate people based on their ability to run a functioning government, it's designed to elevate people based on their capacity to win small-scale tactical battles and inflict violence. What else would it produce except idiots who dress in fursuits and think that their ability to bash in another person's skull makes them the ubermensch and that the Lesser Peoples only deserve existence to serve their every whim?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Incorrect. The Khans are chosen by a vote. They in turn form the Grand Council who also vote on things. You do not have to be a great warrior to be elected, but a good politician.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 18 July 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Jaroth Winson, on 18 July 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Incorrect. The Khans are chosen by a vote. They in turn form the Grand Council who also vote on things. You do not have to be a great warrior to be elected, but a good politician.

To expand on this, many things in Clan life are put to a vote and many ideas can be advocated and discussed. The most important aspect here is "what is best for the Clan". A Khan can't simply do what he or she wants if it goes against the good of the Clan, there have been instances where the SaKhan killed the Khan for this.