359 replies to this topic

[ARC73]

hmm a interesting question. A lot of factors, have to be weighted up to make sense of it. Three things that come immediately to mind, thought. The Clan's ritualized form of warfare. The internal divisions between and in some cases within the Clans themselves (Warden or Crusader). An the problem that seemed to come up time and again, of not being able to give the Inner Sphere credit for being a capable enemy.

Also as others have stated, just the shear scale of the task they jumped into, perhaps without as much thought as they should have given the matter. Once you start a war it does have the ability to take on a life of its own. As the various forces involved act and react against one another. In some cases success can be almost if not more dangerous then defeat. If it puts you in the wrong position, or forces you to do something you didn't take into account.

The headlong charge at Terra, complicated matters as well. Which ever clan claimed Terra first became master of all the other clans. Thats a hell of a lot of policitcal and military pressure to put on commanders in the field. Add the fact several of the clans involved in the invasion cannot stand each other ... well now you have a race that there is no tape to break.

There is more I can add to this, but its going to have to wait. I dont do my best thinking at 4:01 am in the morning . An I will also have to do some serious re-reading, of all the background material I still have on hand here at home for BattleTech.

[Insidious Johnson]

Theodor Kling, on 01 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

Not true. Trueborn Clanners heve Sex like freebirths ..they just don´t fancy parenthood.

But back to why they lost: Apart from the other big issues already mentioned here there is one more: They did not value experience. Military rank was dependent on personal skill with a mech, basicly nothing else. Your ability to lead people, to form good plans of battle, to predict enemy movements ( something that needs the experience ), to plan your logistics... all what makes a good commanding officer was a secondary concern at best. Sure some IS Generals got their posts by politcs, but all the political feuding made them better strategists, no matter how bad they were in a mech.
By the time of Operation Bulldog most Clan warirors that had been high ranking officers in the first wave and knew how the IS fights, were already solahma. And doomed a failure anyway because the ISbeat them. So new , green, warirors took their place thinking: We can do better by beeing even more clan then those old, probably febirth scum. A notion doomed to fail like many of the above posts already pointed out.

But to be fair: Some clans adapted better then others. Clan Wolf did patially on the battlefield and also in an aspect most other clansshunned: intelligence. Their Watch is sadi to bethe best of all clans.
Clan Ghost Bear also adapted, actually moving it´s population to their new IS holdings, aranging themselves with the locals and apart from the small, terrorist attack induced, war with the Draconis Combine were peacefull neighbous until the Jihad.

Shot 3 in the same barrel. This is getting easy.

[Armored Yokai]

replace all that comes before superior to Innersphere
and replace autobots with clans and say they are always inferior

[Feindfeuer]

"Focht had realized the Clans' weakness; despite the fact that they proclaimed themselves the greatest warriors that ever lived and the ultimate masters of warfare, the Clans were, in fact, very bad at fighting actual wars. Their strategies and tactics were, at best, simple and naive, and when it came to coordination and strategy, IE actual warfare, the Clans were mostly incompetent. In addition to this weakness, the one person among the Clans with the experience, vision, and mindset necessary to lead them to victory, the ilKhan himself, Ulric Kerensky, was being ignored by the leaders of the individual Clans."

source: http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Tukayyid

[MajorLeeHung]

In the long run the Clans failed because they lived by a code of honor and the IS did not. They had no choice but to fight us when we called them out. went like this...

They Bid LIKE A BOSS
They dropped in LIKE A BOSS
The IS then proceeded to use every dirty, illegal, and underhanded move in the book and then some LIKE A BOSS
IS Proceeds to spank clans LIKE A BOSS.

End of story.

edit: and to top it off afterwords to get our point across we took the largest join military action EVER in the IS and flew to Smoke Jag home world and committed genocide.

SO all you girls who wanna jump ship to clans... Think on that bit of info... On their home world where their the strongest we beat there ******* ***** to DEATH.

LIKE A BOSS

Edited by MajorLeeHung, 02 July 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[Aegic]

Tactics based on 1v1 combat and honor, also their ilKhan died and they took forever to elect a new one and get the ball rolling.

Meanwhile, the IS begrudgingly worked together and pooled resources for better equipped troops and in larger number. They also utilized merc units for help on critical worlds.

[Duvanor]

There are some misconceptions in this thread.

"ComStar gathered information": Partially true, but ComStar also helped the Clans and wanted to use them as a tool to bring mankind into a new dark age so ComStar could save everyone and lead mankind.

"Half of the clans did not want to fight." True, but they are competitive and did not want a Crusader Clan to rule clan society either. So the Wardens (like the Wolves) fought. But only a few Clans qualified in the trials for the Invasion.

"The Clans were outnumered." Yes, but that did not matter that much. Also there were more Clans to come. Falcons and Jaguars did not well enough, so Vipers and Cats came in and there were more Clans waiting. Diamond Sharks were next to engage, but they did not see actual combat before the invasion was stopped.

"The Clans lost because they fought honorable." Simply no, with the exception of Tukayyid. The Clans know war without Zellbrigen. Clan Icehellion for example forces it on others on a regular basis. The Clans can adapt and they did. I.S. forces could trick them once, then they became dezgra to the Clans and were obliterated. Only one battle the I.S. won did last. The Combines victory on Wolcott because it was negotiated that the Clans would never attack there again. Victor Davion could beat the Falcons on Twycross, but it was later retaken and on Alyina he got his but kicked off planet.

After all, it comes down to Wolfs Dragoons, Tyra Miraborg, ComStar and Logistics The Dragoons and Kell Hounds knew what was coming and were prepared. Blackwell can produce ClanTech for the Dragoons and they have their own Trueborn, so they could face the Clans on the same level, at least with some pilots and mechs since mist of their equipment was more or less Star League. Actually they fought just one fight during the invasion, but saved Luthien and kept the Draonis Combine intact.

Tyra Miraborg killed the ilKhan with her suicide attack and this bought a year for the I.S..

ComStar was able to stop the Clans on Tukayyid with superior numbers and some well planned traps. Seven Clans sent in a combined force of 25 Galaxies against roughly twice as many ComGuard units. Wolves and Bears archieved victory, Falcons a draw. the other four Clans lost.

And of course logistics. The Clans had supplielines of roughly one year traveling time and did not expect long fights. They suffered ammunition shortages, which slowed down some Clans like the Bears, but the Wolves on the other hand were prepared, so I think, the other Clans could have corrected this over time as well.

In the End the Clans could be slowed down by I.S. forces, but only the victory on Tukayyid gave them the time needed to upgrade their forces and beat the Clans back later during the Falcon Incursion on Coventry and during Operation Bulldog and Serpent.

[MajorLeeHung]

Duvanor, on 02 July 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

There are some misconceptions in this thread.

"ComStar gathered information": Partially true, but ComStar also helped the Clans and wanted to use them as a tool to bring mankind into a new dark age so ComStar could save everyone and lead mankind.

"Half of the clans did not want to fight." True, but they are competitive and did not want a Crusader Clan to rule clan society either. So the Wardens (like the Wolves) fought. But only a few Clans qualified in the trials for the Invasion.

"The Clans were outnumered." Yes, but that did not matter that much. Also there were more Clans to come. Falcons and Jaguars did not well enough, so Vipers and Cats came in and there were more Clans waiting. Diamond Sharks were next to engage, but they did not see actual combat before the invasion was stopped.

"The Clans lost because they fought honorable." Simply no, with the exception of Tukayyid. The Clans know war without Zellbrigen. Clan Icehellion for example forces it on others on a regular basis. The Clans can adapt and they did. I.S. forces could trick them once, then they became dezgra to the Clans and were obliterated. Only one battle the I.S. won did last. The Combines victory on Wolcott because it was negotiated that the Clans would never attack there again. Victor Davion could beat the Falcons on Twycross, but it was later retaken and on Alyina he got his but kicked off planet.

After all, it comes down to Wolfs Dragoons, Tyra Miraborg, ComStar and Logistics The Dragoons and Kell Hounds knew what was coming and were prepared. Blackwell can produce ClanTech for the Dragoons and they have their own Trueborn, so they could face the Clans on the same level, at least with some pilots and mechs since mist of their equipment was more or less Star League. Actually they fought just one fight during the invasion, but saved Luthien and kept the Draonis Combine intact.

Tyra Miraborg killed the ilKhan with her suicide attack and this bought a year for the I.S..

ComStar was able to stop the Clans on Tukayyid with superior numbers and some well planned traps. Seven Clans sent in a combined force of 25 Galaxies against roughly twice as many ComGuard units. Wolves and Bears archieved victory, Falcons a draw. the other four Clans lost.

And of course logistics. The Clans had supplielines of roughly one year traveling time and did not expect long fights. They suffered ammunition shortages, which slowed down some Clans like the Bears, but the Wolves on the other hand were prepared, so I think, the other Clans could have corrected this over time as well.

In the End the Clans could be slowed down by I.S. forces, but only the victory on Tukayyid gave them the time needed to upgrade their forces and beat the Clans back later during the Falcon Incursion on Coventry and during Operation Bulldog and Serpent.

I liked my little story better!

[Derek Icelord]

See Sarna.net's article on Clan Invasion / Operation Revival for a more in-depth read.

1.) Clan internal politics. ilKhan Ulric Kerensky (a staunch warden) intentionally put Clans who were bitter rivals in the same invasion corridors to ensure they would fight each other almost as much as the Inner Sphere. He also tipped off ComStar that the Clan's ultimate goal was Terra (Earth). As this was ComStar's base / home world, he gambled they would step in and cease to be neutral. Yes, ComStar not only knew about the invasion before it hit the Inner Sphere, the ComGuard was ordered to not engage.
2.) The Clan warriors themselves are actually rather poor warriors. They are great skirmishers. In a real war, with prolonged engagements and battles of attrition, they lost. The reason they managed to blitz the Inner Sphere was because they could dictate the terms of each skirmish. Once they lost that, they were doomed.
3.) Numbers. Related to point #2, once the Clans lost the ability to dictate the when and where, the Inner Sphere numbers advantage meant the IS could afford far more losses than the Clans.

Edited by Derek Icelord, 02 July 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[Feindfeuer]

Duvanor, on 02 July 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

And of course logistics. The Clans had supplielines of roughly one year traveling time and did not expect long fights. They suffered ammunition shortages, which slowed down some Clans like the Bears, but the Wolves on the other hand were prepared, so I think, the other Clans could have corrected this over time as well.

I might remebering it wrong, but didn't the wolves only have such great logistics cause they worked with comstar, and comstar garanteed them a safe route through the conquered territories while all other clans had to use their own forces to secure supply lines, bogging them down. So the only way the other clans could have the same level of logistic stability would've been an even broader support by Comstar to the clans... which is something that would not be happening at that point anymore.

ah, here is something on that:

"To this end, the First Circuit worked to help provide Clan Wolf with a great wealth of Strategic and Tactical intelligence on planets they planned to attack. And when those planets then fell to the Wolves, ComStar was engaged by the Clan to serve as administrators on their behalf, considerably smoothing occupation of these worlds and allowing the Clans Galaxies to quickly move on to fresh targets without needing to leave major concentrations of troops to secure their rear areas.
This policy of co-operation and administration was highly successful for the Wolves. While the pace of the Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars invasion increasingly slowed as they become bogged down in drawn out conquests of worlds, the Wolves surged ahead,..."
-source: http://www.sarna.net...ukayyid#Prelude

[CCC Dober]

Logistics. They were simply not prepared to fight this war. Later on the Ghost Bears demonstrated how to do it right, migrating their whole society. Imagine all Clans being prepared like that and moving in en masse, nothing would have stopped them. But alas, they chose a quick victory to gain political power (become ilClan to rule them all) and hope that the rest would get sorted out ... somehow. Most of them probably didn't care much for a victory, but more for a glorious death, rather than spending the rest of their days as solahma. It's one thing to fight for glory and honor, but another thing to realize or already know that this might be the last proper fight in your whole life. That's the way Clan society is set up and it's rather sobering, even morale breaking in this case. If you put all that together, then it doesn't come as a surprise that most commanders wanted to get it over with asap (bidding low and using up resources like it was a last stand).

[Hawks]

Lots of reasons, most of which have already been touched upon in this thread, so I'll just say that I think this quote by Napoleon Bonaparte is quite relevant (talking about his campaign in Egypt):

""One Mameluk is stronger than two French soldiers, 100 Mameluks is equal to 150 French soldiers, but 300 Frenchmen will defeat 300 Mameluks, and 1500 Mameluks will always lose to 1000 Frenchmen""

[Duvanor]

Yes Feindfeuer, but that had no big impact on new mechparts and ammo. I.S. rebels could trouble PGCs (Provisional Garrison Clusters), but they could not interrupt the Clans supply lines in space. And other Clans did work with ComStar as well (novel Falcon Guard), while others had their own methods to quell unrest (Smoke Jaguars on Turtle Bay).

[Feindfeuer]

Well, if you not only have to support the frontline, but also all the garrisons, that puts a lot of additional strain on your supplyline. Every planet you have to supply needs secure landing sites, planetary supplylines, administration, etc. So yes, the space-lanes are safe and local rebels might not even be a real threat to the garrison troops, but i doubt that the this did not have a very measurable impact on the supply lines... or at least, it should have.
After all, it's just a work of fiction, and if the authors and writers did not mean for it to have so much of an impact, i'll of course accept that.

[Duvanor]

I can't remember any effective forces behind the lines except the Yakuzza on Turtle Bay (nuked by orbital strike) and Kai Allard Liao on Alyina. The rebels in Falcon Guard had a refittet AgroMech, on some planets were a few surviving Mechs, but in most cases nothing that could threaten a garrison of a trinary or more.

You should consider the I.S. mentality. After 300 years of war, the I.S. citizens on many worlds are used to get conquered and as long as the conqueror does not interfere too much with everyday life, they will just live on. The Clans did change more, then a conquering house would have, but not everywhere enough to cause big unrest.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Ironically the clan invasion wasn't about grabbing as much territory as possible as it was a race to reach Terra. The invasion corridor was more of a logistics path back to the homeworlds for the invading clans, as each tried to push as fast as possible to reach Terra first and become the ilClan. After the truce of Tukayid the invading clans could have expanded 'sideways' into the Combine or Commonwealth as the treaty only barred them from advancing 'past' Tukayid, though they didn't due to internal fighting and probably their true downfall, numbers. Look at warrior sibkos, they start with around 30 kids, but only a small portion go on to become warriors. Even freebirth soldiers must compete in trials to attain the status to become warriors (though generally posted to second line units.) This severly limited the manpower available to the clans. Looking at the Federated Commonwealth and the Combine, there armies dwarfed the clans in total numbers, though the clans ruled on the battlefield due to quality of troops and technology (and the time it took for the Inner Shere to begin to work together against a common enemy.) The goal of the clans was more along the lines of taking Terra, which would result in one clan becoming the ilClan, then enforcing a rebirth of the Star League (at least a League as the clans saw it.) I don't think their goal ever was total domination and destruction of the Inner Sphere, as they simply did not have the troops, even with the homeworld clans, to conquer the entire Inner Sphere. The successor lords and states would probably still exist, but would be forced to follow the clans rule with the ilKhan being the new First Lord.

[BlackAbbot]

It's pretty simple really, the Clans made two classic blunders;
The most obvious was fighting a land war in Asia, but only slightly less blatant was going up against a Sicilian when death was on the line!

[Fiachdubh]

Poor research on opponents, outnumbered, failure to adapt.

[Barrin]

In my opinion if all the Clans were involved instead of the initial 4, with the increase to 6 later, then the IS would have had real problems.

The problems the clans had were:

Batchall - The clans used the minimal amount of forces they felt they could use to achieve their goals, sometimes this did not always work.

Tactics - The clans were used to lighting strikes and one on one honour battles, preferably. Long drawn out battles were a unusal event.

Distrust - The clans did not trust each other and often went to great lengths to cause great problems for each other.

If the Ilkhan had not been killed which halted the invaion for a year then the IS would not have had the time to unify and share tech and upgrade their mech's so that they could stand a chance against the clans. Without that year the Clans invasion would have gotten much further under a Crusader Ilkhan and taken a lot more planets.

As it was the IS got that year which allowed them to prepair and Ulric of the Wolves was made Ilkhan and this allowed him to manipulate the invasion and set the Clans up for a fall.

If the Clans had been vaguely unified then the IS would not have stood a chance overall.

[Thoman Coston]

1. Abysmal logistics, this is the most detrimental thing in any war. If you can't supply your troops then of course you will fail no matter how good your troops are. The Clans were not prepared for a long drawn campaign. It was only a matter of time before the Clans failure to supply their garrisons would slow down their invasion into a halt. Without the help of Clan Diamond Shark merchant caste, the invasion would have stopped before even reaching Tukayyid.

2. Lack of unity and coordination among the Clans.

3. After Leo Shower's death, the next Ilkhan Ulric Kerensky had his personal agenda. He deliberately assigned Clans that are rivals to the same corridor to slow them down, so his own clan could advance faster.

4. Huge difference in numbers. The Clans can not carry that scale of war both economically and people wise. The IS is HUGE, their numbers alone can win it in the long run by brute outnumbering. The IS can endlessly throw more troops at the Clans, provided both sides continue to fight conventionally (no nukes and other weapons of mass destruction), which they did.