359 replies to this topic

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 07 August 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

yes because when the call came to invade, the warden clans stuck to their principles and all voted no....

There's a bit more to it then that.

[Mr D One]

What I remember and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the clans were pwning the IS, but then an aerospace pilot killed the big clan dude and then the clans were divided which gave the Inner Sphere a chance to regroup and defend.

Then the clans revealed to Comstar (The Telstra or AT and T of Battletech) that their goal was Terra (Earth). Comstar who was a 3rd party at this point came to an agreement with the clans to battle for Terra and a truce until a certain year.

So a planet was picked with a capture the city scenario and I believe clan wolf won, jade drew, and the rest lost giving Comstar the victory.

I wonder if the Shootist mech will be available and if Comstar might be a secret opponent. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh

[Stormwolf]

Dar1ng One, on 08 August 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

What I remember and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the clans were pwning the IS, but then an aerospace pilot killed the big clan dude and then the clans were divided which gave the Inner Sphere a chance to regroup and defend.

Then the clans revealed to Comstar (The Telstra or AT and T of Battletech) that their goal was Terra (Earth). Comstar who was a 3rd party at this point came to an agreement with the clans to battle for Terra and a truce until a certain year.

So a planet was picked with a capture the city scenario and I believe clan wolf won, jade drew, and the rest lost giving Comstar the victory.

I wonder if the Shootist mech will be available and if Comstar might be a secret opponent. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh

In crude lines, yes.


I'll write a article for the Warden and Crusader movements and how they worked from the Dragoon Compromise up to the Great Refusal. That should shed some light on things.

[Darth JarJar]

Slick762, on 01 July 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm in the process of reading the original novels, but haven't gotten to the introduction of the Clans yet. How big a part did Wolfs Dragoons play in the defense against the Clans? Did they just share intel, or did they teach others about Clan tactics and weaknesses?

A huge part. They managed to get the leaders of all 5 houses in one place, and prevented them from killing each other while training them to fight the Clans.

[Lunarchaos]

i remember the battletech cartoon in one episode they went and stole some elemental suits to learn about clan tech but i guessing that was just a show and had nothing to do with real mechwarrior lore or does it.

[Stormwolf]

Lunarchaos, on 08 August 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

i remember the battletech cartoon in one episode they went and stole some elemental suits to learn about clan tech but i guessing that was just a show and had nothing to do with real mechwarrior lore or does it.

Not really, the cartoon exists in the BT universe as "a poorly reviewed holovid series".

[Skylarr]

The first Elemental Battle Armor suits were captured by both Grey Death Legion agianst the Jade Falcon, on Pandora, and Hohiro Kurita against Smoke Jaguars, on Wolcott.

Edited by Skylarr, 08 August 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[Atlas3060]

They couldn't dominate because of multiple factors.
One was population, both the numbers and the mentality of the respective sides.
Clan civilians are typically content with letting the warriors bash each other's heads in and leave them alone.
They've been doing it for centuries so why stop now? If I can still make my work quota the Clan will be happy.

Inner Sphere civilians have a similiar mindset, new flag and new money but same old job, but they don't deal with the rigid caste system. Tell a Fed Sun miner he's now going to work on the assembly lines of the newly conquered system (For the Chancellor!) and see a few uprisings here and there. Heck the FRR is a nice example of guerilla warfare for generations.

Also the numbers game comes into play. The Inner Sphere dominates in population and Clan warriors made up barely a few percentages of the Clan population. This would be like having just the NYPD become the Coast Guard and Border Patrol for all of the United States. Oh sure in theory it could work, but not really that well.

Clan rules and warfare though does limit casualties a bit, it is built for skirmishes. In other words Clanners could play capture the flag pretty well, but don't ask them to sit down and play Risk. Their blitz skirmish style of battle is not built for campaigns. Where the Inner Sphere is different. They've done the small time raids but they've also play the big game of "hold a system for centuries". Long term warfare is possible, people would riot and form terror groups to support the old guard (see earlier point).

Distance from the Homeworlds would eventually grind on the great Clan Empire war machine.
Yes they could retool certain factories, but that would take time and energy from a culture who supposedly abhors waste and doesn't trust conquered freebirth barbarian Spheroids.

The truce on Tukayyid is another moment where their blasted culture bit them in the rear center torso. Clan bidding requires you be somewhat honest. You are dealing with dirty Spheroids. Do you think they will actually honor batchalls? Wolcott taught the Clanners they couldn't, but by then the damage was done.

Relying on Comstar for the administration and indoctrination activities was a horrible plan. I don't trust Comstar to butter my toast for fear of them running away with my toaster!

Edited by Atlas3060, 08 August 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Kael Tropheus]

They got tricked. Comstar used their honor thing against them. Challenged them to a planetary wide honor dual on Tukayyid with a 15 year halt on the invasion as the stakes. They then drug it out over weeks knowing the clans like lightning fast assaults and not campaigns, They bled Comstar dry but lost overall i the end and I think only two clans actually achieved their objectives because they saw what Comstar was doing and were able to adapt. Thus the clans couldnt proceed pat the Tukayyid Line giving the IS time to learn, recoup, and advance while at the same time the clans were torn up quite a bit with internal strife.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Dar1ng One, on 08 August 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

What I remember and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the clans were pwning the IS, but then an aerospace pilot killed the big clan dude and then the clans were divided which gave the Inner Sphere a chance to regroup and defend.

That is the main point right there.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Stormwolf, on 08 August 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

There's a bit more to it then that.

not really, if the warden mantra is to protect the IS then where were they when one of the greatest threats was planning to invade? Clan Wolfs Refusal war came far too late, if they really cared it would have been something akin to a clan civil war which would have been awesome. Instead when the vote came for invasion, majority of wardens went right along with it.

[Stormwolf]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 August 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

not really, if the warden mantra is to protect the IS then where were they when one of the greatest threats was planning to invade? Clan Wolfs Refusal war came far too late, if they really cared it would have been something akin to a clan civil war which would have been awesome. Instead when the vote came for invasion, majority of wardens went right along with it.

I was gonna save this for the Warden/Crusader thread, but I'm a bit too tired to write it all but here goes.

The Refusal War has different roots then the call for invasion, it was more a kick in the groin of the people who wanted to discredit Ulric as Ilkhan. Clan Wolf did indeed call for trial of Refusal after the go vote was cast in 3048 but they were fighting against rather extreme odds and lost.

It all goes back to the Outbound Light incident, the Smoke Jaguars sure pulled a number there.
The Warden Clans were essentially deceived by Clan Smoke Jaguar because they painted the Fedcom in such a way that they would conquer the entire IS to create a evil Star League of sorts. The arrival of the Comstar vessel was also used add more fuel to fire, if Comstar can find the Clan homeworlds, then so can the IS forces.

This ofcourse got both the Warden Crusader factions thinking. The Crusaders were thinking about establishing a new Star League, the Warden were thinking about liberating the IS from the evil Federated Commonwealth. But the Wardens redeemed themselves during the Great Refusal by not fighting against the IS forces, Clan Nova Cat even fought on their side for that one (and paid the price for it).

[Xeen]

Becouse thats how the authors wanted it.

[Ignatius Spectre]

The clans fought a battle on Tukayyid that was basically an all or nothing battle for the Inner Sphere, winner takes all. The clans all sent forces, if they won they get Terra, if they lose the wars over, the clans stop their advance. The Comguards were armed with Star League tech, and were a closer match to the clans than the successor states and were a more disciplined and elite force.

http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Tukayyid

[Neenja]

"Kai or no Kai, the war would have ended the same.
No Tyra [Miraborg], and there would be no Inner Sphere."
- Kai Allard-Liao, 3057

Edited by Neenja, 08 August 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[pnaksone]

The clans messed up on grand strategy and logistics.

They had no real strategy beyond that if they got a hold of Terra the rest of humanity would see them as the rightful rulers. Lots of luck. None of the other successor states would have let the clans have and hold on to earth even if comstar lost.

As for logistics they forgot that even an easy victory can be very costly in terms of resources. They where used to fighting using as few forces as possible against an opponent that also used as few as possible. Whole cities would changes hands at times based on the out come of a fight between two warrior caste members. After the fight both sides would abide by the results at least for a set time before challenging again.

[Skinflowers]

Inflexibility and hubris cost the Clans the Inner Sphere. Anything outside of their narrowly defined view of things caught them off balance.

[Valten]

Well crap. Had about two pages on why numbers deffenders and tactics won it for the IS but my son hit the back button before I could hit send. NEVER HAVE KIDS!!!

[Crusader Breen]

В первую очередь, кланы небыли эгоистичны. Как правильно тут некоторые подметили это правила боя.
Пример, где то там играют футбол по своим правилам, ваша команда, приехавшая туда, проиграет хозяевам по причине не привычки к правилам хозяина поля. Так же и на оборот они проиграют вам, если будут вести матч на вашем поле с вашими правилами. Клановский воин может порвать двоих себе подобных. При этом, сильно не напрягаясь, если те, двоя, будут соблюдать традиции, так сказать рыцарского кодекса! Если же нет, то малый шанс за ним остаётся, ведь их учат чуть ли не с детства! И они не тупое быдло, которое лезет на рожон, по тактике ведения боя они тоже сильнее сферы, вспомните нефритового сокола. Дело в том, что ильхан просто предал их. Он был волком, он думал только о своем клане, поэтому то волки так хорошо обогатились. А остальные кланы делили коридор и при том делили то враждующие кланы. Второе, это обман. Кланеров обманули, ведь перед битвой были оговорена численность воинов как с одной стороны, так и с другой. Но сфера обманула их, добавив со своей стороны, пример (IS 10 человек больше, когда шла речь о IS 5 человек). Предательство драгун тоже внесло свою лепту. Ведь драгуны не только поделились роботами и технологиями кланов, так они ещё и рассказали IS об их боевых тактиках, что привело со стороны сферы к засадам. Попробуй увернуться от быка, когда он рядом с тобою, не получится увернуться, не зная его тактику. А когда ты знаешь повадки быка, то у тебя есть шанс уйти от его смертельного удара (бык это клан). Да и по технологиям клан робот был лучше, когда сфера загибалась в войне, теряв технологии звездной лиги. Ведь только после вторжения появились омни мехи у сферы!

N1
First of all clans nebyli selfish. Loading rules, your team, who came back to lose by not accustomed to the rules of the host field. In addition, they lose the turnover you have, if the field with your rules. A clan of warriors of the two will destroy his own kind. In this case it twice, they will continue the tradition, so to speak, the Knights of ! If not, then a slight chance he has. Because they are taught almost from childhood! And they are not stupid rednecks who climbs on the rampage on combat tactics, they are also more opportunities, remember Jade Falcon. The fact that Ilhan simply betrayed. He was a wolf, he thought only of his own clan, so that the wolves are plentiful. And the rest of the clans divided the hall, the warring clans. Secondly, it is a fraud. The clan cheated, because before the fight has been agreed as the number of soldiers on one side and on the other side. But the scope has deceived them by adding, in turn, for example (IS still 10 when she was a contract for 5 persons). Betrayal of dragoons also contributed. In the end, Dragoon not only shares the clan of robots and technology, they also talked about tactics, which resulted from the scope of an ambush. Try to dodge the bull when he was there with you, can not escape, not knowing his tactics. And when you know the habits of the bull, then you have a chance to escape from his death-blow (clan). And the clan robot technology is better, when IS the war, lost Star League technology. Only after the invasion, were available Omni Mech!

№2
First of all, clans no selfish. How do I then noticed a few rules of engagement. An example of where there are football by its own rules, your team, who came there, the owners will lose due to not accustomed to the rules of the host field. Similarly, the turnover they lose you, if they are to match your field with your rules. Clan man warrior can win two of their own kind. In this case, doubly, they will keep the tradition, so to speak Knights Honor. If not, then a small chance of him is because they are taught almost from childhood honor! And they're not stupid, which climbs on the rampage on combat tactics, they are also more scope, remember Jade Falcon. The fact that Ilhan gave them to lose. He was a wolf, he thought only of his own clan, so that the wolves abound. And the rest of the clans divided the corridor and, moreover, is divided warring clans. Сlan cheated, because before the battle had been stipulated as the number of soldiers on one side or the other. Betrayal of dragoons also made a contribution. After all dragoons not only shared by robots and technology clans, because they also talked about their military tactics which resulted from the sphere to the ambush. Try to dodge the bull when he was next to you, will not be able to evade, not knowing his tactics. And when you know the habits of the bull that you have a chance to escape from its fatal blow. Clan robot technology was better. is sphere in the war lost Star League technology. Only after the invasion Clans, is sphere plans appeared omniMech!

Edited by CSV Crusader, 08 August 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Argon3]

Clans wanted to fight with Honor
IS wanted to win