50 replies to this topic

[Tim East]

Moldur, on 31 May 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Clan LB5-X is underrated.

3 1.67 damage projectiles from AC or UAC that hit consecutively or 5 1 damage projectiles hitting at the same time?

The Clan LB5-X actually has the same DPS as the Clan ULTRA AC-5, except it never jams. The projectiles also travel faster. It has a greater max range, and the spread is quite small. Adding the cooldown module it's even better, not to mention it has the crit boost.

Heck, I've seen a single LBX2 on my joke Adder successfully suppress an ignorant Dire Wolf before. That was pretty funny. I strongly like the clan LBX's of all stripes, since they are the closest thing you can get to PPFLD aside from the gauss in the clans. Also because they sound sexy.

I watched a video of the b33f rolling a Dire with something like 6 LBX 2 set to macro like a machine gun that was hilarious.



It's kinda toward the back end of this one. Try around 9 mins.

[K1ttykat]

Moldur, on 31 May 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Clan LB5-X is underrated.

3 1.67 damage projectiles from AC or UAC that hit consecutively or 5 1 damage projectiles hitting at the same time?

The Clan LB5-X actually has the same DPS as the Clan ULTRA AC-5, except it never jams. The projectiles also travel faster. It has a greater max range, and the spread is quite small. Adding the cooldown module it's even better, not to mention it has the crit boost.

Yeahh no it's a terrible weapon, even among LBX.

These tests were done in testing grounds after the lbx2/5 spread improvement patch, aiming at the CT and recording the time to kill at various ranges. This is a good measure of how well the weapons target a single component. Before I hear "Pinpoint is not the roll of the LBX" there is absolutely no reason not to target a single component in this game, even if you want to pretend the LBX is a crit seeking weapon then it's going to be targeting a single un-armoured component. The ranges tested were 150m and 400m. I consider ranges closer than 150m to be unrealistic use scenarios. The mech used was a Dire Wolf with either 6 LBX2 or 6 LBX5. The mechs tested on were the atlas at 150m, and the awesome at 400m. The awesome represents a best case scenario for long range fire as it has the largest CT.

At both ranges the LBX5 has worse time to kill compared to the LBX2: slightly worse at 150m, and about 40% worse at 400m. Being a higher DPS weapon, this means that the LBX5 has to expend much more ammo (in tons) to achieve the same result as the LBX2. The increased tonnage puts the LBX5 at an even greater disadvantage, compared to the LBX2.

Sadly the spread on the LBX5 just kills it, otherwise it might be a cool weapon. The LBX2/5 need some more pellets to make the perform consistently, the RNG on 2/5 pellets can really be unfriendly. Maybe 4x0.25 damage for the LBX2 and 10x0.5 for the LBX5. Fix pls PGI.

ALSO: The LBX5 only does as much damage as the cUAC5 without the double tap. With the double tap (and jam chance), the cUAC has much higher DPS.

Edited by K1ttykat, 01 June 2015 - 12:51 AM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Moldur, on 31 May 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Clan LB5-X is underrated.

3 1.67 damage projectiles from AC or UAC that hit consecutively or 5 1 damage projectiles hitting at the same time?

The Clan LB5-X actually has the same DPS as the Clan ULTRA AC-5, except it never jams. The projectiles also travel faster. It has a greater max range, and the spread is quite small. Adding the cooldown module it's even better, not to mention it has the crit boost.

clan uac jams only if you double the rate of fire

[Appogee]

Modo44, on 10 April 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

Do not use shotguns (LB-whatever) because they spread damage which means the enemy can avoid losing critical components easily. Do not use AC2s because they have terrible DPS. Small dakka looks good, but does next to no damage. In its current state, the AC2 is only good if you want to make people laugh.

Two corrections to the above statements:

1. LBXs have superior critting ability. If your overall Mech design concept is to peel open components with lasers and ACs, and then destroy those components, LBXs (along with MGs) are superior to their AC counterparts. They also have lower heat than their AC counterparts. However the spread of damage means you generally want to use them at short range as a killing blow.

2. AC2s actually have superior DPS per ton of weaponry. Eg. an AC10 weighs 12 tons and does 4 DPS. But for that same 12 tons, you can equip two AC2s weighs and do a combined 4.6ish DPS. Plus, they have a much longer range, faster projective speed and the sheer rapidity of fire can help suppress scaredy enemies. The downside is heat. 2xAC2s do more than double the heat of the single AC10, and so heat usually becomes a limiting factor on use of AC2s. While I rarely use AC2 these days, don't write them off entirely.

Edited by Appogee, 01 June 2015 - 02:08 AM.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

I want to raise another point here:

Take your skill level into consideration. If you are a rather good player and know that and where you will hit the enemy, you are better of with the big AC's, whereas a player who is lucky to hit anything at all might do better with multiple smaller AC's or even LB-Xes.

I just refittet my Dire with 6 LB-X 2 (no chain fire) and 4 MPL. Runs quite hot, but after 5 matches I can say, that I like it even better than the 6 UAC 5 outfit. Damage is little less and heat significantly higher, but ammo lasts longer (important!) and no jamming.

Off topic: Imho when running Dire Wolfs, the most valuable piece of equipment is the radar derp module. Weapons are secondary to that.

[Elizander]

UAC/5 is best if you're not rambo running out of cover all the time. Having cover to duck behind when you jam makes the UAC/5 much more effective since you'll almost always be able to have superior DPS when trading.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

Elizander, on 01 June 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

UAC/5 is best if you're not rambo running out of cover all the time. Having cover to duck behind when you jam makes the UAC/5 much more effective since you'll almost always be able to have superior DPS when trading.

In case of the Dire, ducking into cover is not an option, because too fat and slow. That's why I like the LBX-2 there. You can use that high firing rate to press the enemy back into cover.

Edited by Sthtopokeon, 01 June 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[mad kat]

Modo44, on 10 April 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

Do not use shotguns (LB-whatever) because they spread damage which means the enemy can avoid losing critical components easily. Do not use AC2s because they have terrible DPS. Small dakka looks good, but does next to no damage. In its current state, the AC2 is only good if you want to make people laugh.

Not quite as with many other things they have their place for example the Blackjack 1DC and -1 are quirked to make ac2's actually quite effective and yes the dragon -1n and wolverine -6r can carry quirked ac5's but overlooking the rapid fire ac2's on the blackjack is a grave mistake on the enemies part.

If your a keen shot and especially if your good at headshots the ac2's are a threat to all including lights.

The LB-10x is a good weapon with a BUT and that is range you have to be very close to your foe especially late game a pair of LB-10x's combined with pulse lasers will crit an enemy in a few seconds. The CN9-d and the dual LBX jager and triple Cataphract does this very well.

Dual UAC5's is very good especially when combined with large lasers and the AC10 is a decent brawl weapon when mixed with SRM's.

Edited by mad kat, 01 June 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Modo44]

Appogee, on 01 June 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

1. LBXs have superior critting ability.

Yes, and an even better making people laugh by spreading damage all over ability. The weapon sounds great, that is its best feature.

Appogee, on 01 June 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

2. AC2s actually have superior DPS per ton of weaponry.

Until you notice the UAC5, which easily beats that with double taps. Compare 2xAC2 to UAC5+LL, or 3xAC2 to 2xAC5+LL. Either option has less damage spread, allows for much easier torso twisting, and retains silly sustained DPS, stomping the AC2 into the ground. This is really basic math.

[Appogee]

Modo44, on 01 June 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Yes, and an even better making people laugh by spreading damage all over ability. The weapon sounds great, that is its best feature.

I know you are an experienced player, so I'm surprised you're so dismissive of the LBX's ability to kill a Mech with an exposed component. When it's used in short range, it enables Mechs like the Enforcer 5D, with its LBX10 quirk, to enjoy markedly higher k/d ratios, and kills per point of damage.

Modo44, on 01 June 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Until you notice the UAC5, which easily beats that with double taps.

...right up until the point that it jams, when suddenly its DPS is 0 for a period.

UAC5's standard DPS is 3.00 per 9 tons. 2xAC2s DPS is 5.6 per 12 tons, which equals 4.21 DPS per per 9 tons. So the 2AC2s are still well ahead of the UAC5 on DPS.

But as you say, we can double tap the UAC5s to achieve 6 DPS... until it jams, and achieves 0 DPS for several long seconds. It might achieve much higher DPS for several bursts, or it might jam and deliver 0 DPS from the first double tap on.

How are you factoring in the jam chance/duration of the UAC5, when you conclude that it has a better DPS per ton?

Modo44, on 01 June 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Compare 2xAC2 to UAC5+LL, or 3xAC2 to 2xAC5+LL. Either option has less damage spread, allows for much easier torso twisting, and retains silly sustained DPS, stomping the AC2 into the ground. This is really basic math.

Your first comparison is 12 vs 14 tons, so not valid. Your second example is 18 vs 23 tons, so again invalid.

You say that damage spread is a limiting consideration on the AC2s. That's true, but if you are pairing it - or any weapon - with a LL, then it's a moot point. You can are going to have to try to hold that LL beam on a specific component for a full one second to deliver 14 damage, and it too will likely spread damage. May as well be holding the AC2s for two shots over 1.5s, and doing 17 damage. AND then refiring much much quicker.

Modo44, on 01 June 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

This is really basic math.

Yes, it is.

[IraqiWalker]

K1ttykat, on 01 June 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Maybe 4x0.25 damage for the LBX2 and 10x0.5 for the LBX5. Fix pls PGI.

Please no. The biggest reason for clan ballistics not doing all the damage they should be doing is the fact that HSR tends to swallow a few pellets at a time into the ether. Adding more pellets does mean when one gets swallowed it's less damage lost, but that's only if HSR mess ups don't increase. Which they will, because more pellets thrown around will cause it to bork left right, and backwards.

LBXs need a flat 20% increase to crit chance. The way they are right now, the only hope they have of competing with regular ACs, and UACs, is to actually be more effective than them at destroying internals.

This next part is for everyone:

---

TECHNICALLY, the LBX is a better weapon at destroying internals. However, in reality, it really isn't. Here's why:

It has a marginally better chance of critting, and when it does, whichever pellets crit (that's right, crit chance is per pellet here), will deal extra damage to the internals. Slug weapons (ACs, UACs, and PPCs) have less chance of critting (marginally), but when they do, they ALWAYS out-do the LBX at any range.


For this test, let's assume that a crit will cause the bullet to deal double damage.

When an LBX fires it's blast, roughly half the pellets will hit the target location. Let's use the LB-10X, and the target is an exposed AC20, and it's a single trigger pull:

5 pellets hit, of those, 3 crit, oh hell, let's make it all of them. They each deal double damage, and at best, that's 10 damage to the AC 20. AC 20 still has 8 health left. (keep in mind, the exposed section also received 5 damage from the pellet impact) {Also, 15% of the crit damage is transferred to the internal structure, so 1.5 extra damage is dealt to the section on top of everything else)

PPC hits, if it doesn't crit, that's 10 damage to the section. If it does crit, that's 20 damage to the AC 20, and 3 damage transferring to the section on top of the previous 10. Removing the AC 20 with one shot, and dealing more damage to the section.

So while the LBX is better at "crit seeking" it's not that good when it comes to critting. You need multiple repeated crits to do anything worthwhile. Which is why the LBXs need a better crit chance. You increase their chance of critting to where it matters, and they will get their desired effectiveness. Allowing them to compete in some way against slug weapons.

This will also have the effect of dialing down some of the more ludicrous LBX quirks.

---

Edited by IraqiWalker, 01 June 2015 - 12:23 PM.