132 replies to this topic

[badaa]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

Isn't this the very definition of pay to win? Every other post about this everywhere simply dodges the elephant in the room. (This moreso is true for newer players rather than groups of players who all have been playing long enough to have mech loadouts that they are satisfied with)

If I cannot access certain variants that have different hardpoint loadout capabilities unless I pay money, that is called pay to win. (In the case of mechs like the Spider, I guess it's pay to have more convenience/fun because people claim the paid version sucks. but regardless if there were less variants for sale and better customization I wouldn't have to grind forever for the better variant after making the mistake of getting the useless one. If only my spider 5k could fit another lazer I wouldnt have to grind for months and buy something new to not get owned.

There are people willing to buy the more capable/versatile variants of each mech, because it seems to only be available for mc/money. I am not willing to pay money just to be able to play as the most capable version of a mech or to have the loadout that will take me likely months possibly years to get for just 1 mech

Even though I'm not competetive in this game anyway, I still don't like the idea of getting owned by people that have loadouts that I can't even work towards without paying money.

If you want to play as a certain mech, with a certain loadout, you either simply can't or may have to pay money. All I'm talking about is customization. Hardpoints limit your customization capabilities making you have to pay for a mech with different hardpoints/weapons. Each mech should only be limited by it's tonnage or possibly other factors, rather than hardpoints. I like the game, this is just my opinion. Because of hardpoints, I either have to grind and spend c bills on a new engine for my current spider or grind and spend c bills or buy a new spider/mech. I wasted all my c bills on the 5k at first. IMO the spider 5k when it is first bought is probably one of the most useless mechs in the game.. except for maybe distracting people?

no

[Metus regem]

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Hands down? I dunno, I think it's rather close between the Wang and the AH.

In fact, the AH has the Wang beat for alpha as long as ammo to the triple SRM-4s lasts. In a protracted fight, yeah, the Wang comes out on top. In short brawls though, the AH beats the Wang.

Personally though, I prefer the venerable old A variant - but that's me

Well I did say, that as far as I know them between my three the A, D and Wang...

I've been thinking about adding the AL to my stables though...

[Sandersson Jankins]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Precisely.

Whether these paid variants are in fact better or not is a matter of OPINION. I'm saying it takes away from the game and pisses new players off that they are up against people who are playing with builds that can't even be worked towards without paying.

Why flood my screen with extra GAMEPLAY CHANGING variants that are not purely cosmetic that certianly look fun and enticing to ALL players especially NEW players but when you click on it a message pops up "You need MC"

In Hawken this isn't the case. Eventually I CAN have the same exact mech loadout as anybody who paid. Even if I never paid. In Hawken, paying only makes you look really cool - money only allows you to take a mech that you worked hard to master and then make it your own, OR have the convenience of getting a decent loadout fast. Those paid loadouts however are available through grinding.

This is the truth

If it makes you feel better to say categorically that MWO is pay to win "because you have access to something I don't that performs a bit better, or in many cases worse", do so.

In fact, I don't think anyone can change your mind. You've made it up, and to you, MWO is pay2win. That is gospel to you, and it is clear nobody can change your mind. I'll try, even if it is probably futile.

So you say you haven't played many games. Well, welcome to MWO. I mean it! I want as many new players in this game having fun as possible.

I guess I have around 300-500 CW drops since I returned to active play, over a period of a couple months. I was a founder, but wasn't able to play a month after release until recently. So I've got a bit more experience than you; not to laud it over you and call you a noob or anything.

However, if MWO was "pay to win", you would see large amounts of hero mechs running around blasting things into oblivion, and the lamentation from non-paying players would be INTENSE. The most hero mechs I'll see in a CW match (that's 12x4=48 mechs on my team!) is around an average of 6. The only hero mechs that perform marginally or significantly better than their counterparts that I see are the Pirate's Bane (significantly, is the only MC mech that is unbalanced IMO) Misery (very marginally), Grid Iron (very marginally), and Huggin (marginally).

Now, you could say "well, there aren't many people spending real money on your teams!"

That'd be wrong! I see nearly everyone in organized groups (who are probably trying to win harder than you, tbh) wearing MC-only camo and cockpit items. These are on C-Bill mechs. People dropping in organized groups in CW are going to be highly interested in winning in the most effective way possible. And they know what they're talking about, some of these guys have jockeyed these robots in MWO for a long-ass time.

If the hero mechs were legitimately overpowered, victory-centric players would use and exploit them heavily. They are seen only moderately, and this is NOT due to people not shelling out real money.

In conclusion, if you are dedicated to the idea of "if ANY item that affects performance or grind in a game is available only for real money, the game is pay2win", then there is no hope for you. This isn't going to change. PGI will NOT cater to such a small minority that they wouldn't even make a dime off of anyway!

You must think in less of a dichotomy. A game is not EITHER "pay2win" or...whatever your alternative term is.

A game should only be considered "pay 2 win" if there exist SIGNIFICANT advantages to be gained only through paying real money. As in, any jackass without skill in the game can grab his credit card and be dominating 30 minutes later.

Call me petty and semantic, but you COULD call MWO "pay to receive a miniscule advantage over certain players in certain situations", but that doesn't have a nice ring to it like the buzzword pay2win, does it?

Cosmetic-only items could likely not support development of this game. Hell, it could MAYBE pay for server costs, maintenance, and a minimum-wage salary for PGI. So I'm HAPPY to have PGI do what they must within reason to make their bucks.

[bad arcade kitty]

Sandersson Jankins, on 12 April 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

Cosmetic-only items could likely not support development of this game. Hell, it could MAYBE pay for server costs, maintenance, and a minimum-wage salary for PGI. So I'm HAPPY to have PGI do what they must within reason to make their bucks.

yeah, when you rarely even see how your mech looks except in the mech bay...

[wolf74]

if you play the weekend event They DO give out MC in them now. (Just going to take you a Bit to save up to a Hero Mech)

[Chuanhao]

It is true that MC has been given away quite liberally these few months, starting with the three "lucky Dip" events (Halloween, Christmas, St Patricks) and others like the current Looking For Group event. So its not "Play to Win" buts its "Save to Play". Save ya MCs that you have own through effort and buy whatever you need. I know I have had enough MCs to buy a few Warhorns here and there. I'll try for a Huginn Next.

[Sandersson Jankins]

wolf74, on 12 April 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

if you play the weekend event They DO give out MC in them now. (Just going to take you a Bit to save up to a Hero Mech)

Wow. I actually didn't think of this at all.

The OP's argument is completely negated. He states the game is "pay2win" because players that will not spend money on the game do not have access to equipment that paying players do.

That's false, since eventually, through gathering MC from challenges, or contests (such as the new player guide video contest) you absolutely CAN get EVERY item in the game without a cent spent.

noice

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 12 April 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[Roadbuster]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

I'm new to the game and I haven't used those mechs this does not apply.

True, not obnoxiously better - but still - I don't want to pay money to outfit my spider mech with 2 energy weapons and 2 ballistic weapons. This is just one example of many.

The Panther mech is only available through MC.

*sigh*

You are new to the game and you don't own any of the "OP" mechs.
How can you tell they are better?
Stalker 4N seems to be better than Misery.
Dragon 1N beats both MC variants.
Firestarter S/A compared to Ember.
...
It's a matter of preference.


You want some specific loadout on a specific mech? There are alot of choices for loadouts and mechs.
If a mech doesn't offer the hardpoints you want, use a similar mech with the right hardpoints.
Want that special snowflake? Pay.


Panther is the same as Enforcer and Zeus...and Warhawk, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Battlemaster, Shadowhawk, Firestarter, Thunderbolt,...
New mechs get added in packs you can buy. Then after a few weeks, they can be purchased with MC, and another few weeks later they are avaliable for CB.
Don't have the time to wait? Pay.


I see no problem, and I don't see pay2win anywhere.

[dakeyrus]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

The sad thing is that this statement dodges my points entirely.
I think there should be less variants to the mechs., and make more loadouts available for free.

And anyway if what you're saying is true why is this mech in the game. It was the frist mech I picked and I have no choice but to pay or make a new account or grind it out. I'm grinding it out.

Unfortunately, I think your argument is a bit naive and misses the whole point of the game. There are a few reasons. 1. This game was created to make money. They variety can be found by the access to Hero and Champion mechs 2. Mechs are constructed with restrictions to maintain balance and create diversity. The quirks, hard points, as well as the cosmetic appearance all add to this. 3. We are talking about a game which is also governed by a certain extent by lore of the battletech universe. Also think that design restrictions, though these are part of the lore as well have to be built into the game.

All these stop you from being able to get what YOU want. I would love to see a spider with 6 energy hard points. Would this create problems in balance? Absolutely. There would be a massive shift to competitive play being dominated by certain designs for competitive play. It happens in online games, happens in table top games and card games (all of which I have played and at decent competitive level.

[That Dawg]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

I'm new to the game and I haven't used those mechs this does not apply.

If you take that mindset out into the big wide world, you will be rekt.
Either you're a troll, or have been sheltered to near criminal levels.

[Joseph Mallan]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

The sad thing is that this statement dodges my points entirely.
I think there should be less variants to the mechs., and make more loadouts available for free.

And anyway if what you're saying is true why is this mech in the game. It was the frist mech I picked and I have no choice but to pay or make a new account or grind it out. I'm grinding it out.

There are 14 variants of teh Spider... We have only 5.

[zagibu]

Naduk, on 12 April 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

lastly
NEVER SELL EQUIPMENT!!
do not sell weapons, or engines or heatsinks or armour
if you feel you hate a chassis enough to sell it, only sell the frame
customizing future mechs is not a costly task when you have a stock pile of weapons and engines laying about

While it's certainly good advice to keep a stock of equipment readily available, I doubt anyone needs to keep more than a couple of ER PPCs on the back shelves. Also, the third STD 260 engine can probably be sold. Especially engines are worth quite a lot of c-bills and smartly selling them can mean you have more mechs sooner rather than later.

[sneeking]

zagibu, on 13 April 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

While it's certainly good advice to keep a stock of equipment readily available, I doubt anyone needs to keep more than a couple of ER PPCs on the back shelves. Also, the third STD 260 engine can probably be sold. Especially engines are worth quite a lot of c-bills and smartly selling them can mean you have more mechs sooner rather than later.

Yep, its more correct to say do not sell all of any one thing than to say do not sell anything ( which I feel is flawed ) nothing wrong with a little house keeping.