132 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

this is you're opinion

Well, yes. And I've been here for a while, and I've mastered Spiders a long, long time ago.

My opinion, such as it is, at least is grounded in extensive experience. Your opinion - at least as I can surmise - is that because you can't buy the Anansi for CB, MWO is P2W. And you post with an account that was opened today.

On the face of it, is a laughable assertion and I'm not surprised that people are telling you that you don't know what you're talking about.

How can it be Pay to Win if you pay for a variant that is worse than at least one variant you can buy for CB?

Salinor, on 12 April 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

For all who say that wang or AH is best centurion I say that best centurion is CN9-A (though I have the build on the AH for c-bill bonus) with 3 srm6s uac5 and xl250. I've tried the AC20, I'm not sure why but 3 srm6s just feels so much more effective plus I have the uac5 for those long range fights.

I prefer my A with XL245, AC/10, 2xSRM-4, 1xLRM-5, 2xML. It's not better than the Wang or the AH though, no A variant is. I prefer the A over both of them, but they're both better. The AC/20 makes all the difference.

[Salinor]

cool build, wouldn't you run low on srm ammo though with only 1 ton? I'll have to try that, maybe swap a ton of ac10 ammo for a ton of srm ammo.

Also, does it disturb anyone that this topic has gotten 6 full pages of replies in about 4 hours

Edited by Salinor, 12 April 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[stjobe]

Salinor, on 12 April 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

cool build, wouldn't you run low on srm ammo though with only 1 ton? I'll have to try that, maybe swap a ton of ac10 ammo for a ton of srm ammo.

You only use the SRMs for the quick kill, so running out is less of a problem than you'd think.

Use the LRM for harassment/assists, the AC/10 for medium-range sniping, and once you get close it's AC/SRM/ML time to secure the kill.

If you want, you can swap the LRM-5 for a third SRM-4 and get 2 tons of ammo for the three, but I like the LRM for its range in PUGlandia.

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Precisely.

As I said, that's a ridiculous claim. P2W means Pay to WIN, not Pay to be Different, oftentimes Worse.

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Whether these paid variants are in fact better or not is a matter of OPINION.

Not really. The Anansi in particular is objectively worse than at least the 5D (ECM is still a game-changer), and arguably the 5K (4 ballistic slots lets you mount enough MGs that they become effective). The only one it's really superior to is the 5V.

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'm saying it takes away from the game and pisses new players off that they are up against people who are playing with builds that can't even be worked towards without paying.

New players are up against people who are playing with builds that they've poured millions upon millions of CB into, and thousands of GXP for modules. That is a problem. Having a few, often inferior, variants behind a paywall isn't.

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Why flood my screen with extra GAMEPLAY CHANGING variants that are not purely cosmetic that certianly look fun and enticing to ALL players especially NEW players but when you click on it a message pops up "You need MC"

Because, as I said in a previous post, F2P doesn't mean everything is free. It just means Free to Play. Devs have to eat too, and the game needs some way of generating income to stay F2P.

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

This is the truth

Nah. It's your opinion. And, sorry to say, it seems to be based on a faulty understanding of F2P, P2W, and MWO all.

Edited by stjobe, 12 April 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[WonderSparks]

Averen, on 12 April 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

...
Not to mention there are ultra-obvious examples where buying a pack got you better equipment. Seems like the confirmation bias is off the charts.

What "better equipment" do you speak of? Clans? Nothing P2W about that, either; not one of my Clan 'Mechs has magically allowed me to win because it was Clan Tech. It does not work that way.

Sure, some of the packs came with 'Mechs that came with stuff like high-caliber Autocannon or other big things. Still none of it sways a game in any ridiculous manner. All it does is give me more options for customization without needing to grind for hours to get the C-bills required to buy the equipment.
Big difference from "Pay to Win" for those who are unsure.

[C E Dwyer]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

Isn't this the very definition of pay to win? Every other post about this everywhere simply dodges the elephant in the room. (This moreso is true for newer players rather than groups of players who all have been playing long enough to have mech loadouts that they are satisfied with)

If I cannot access certain variants that have different hardpoint loadout capabilities unless I pay money, that is called pay to win. (In the case of mechs like the Spider, I guess it's pay to have more convenience/fun because people claim the paid version sucks. but regardless if there were less variants for sale and better customization I wouldn't have to grind forever for the better variant after making the mistake of getting the useless one. If only my spider 5k could fit another lazer I wouldnt have to grind for months and buy something new to not get owned.

There are people willing to buy the more capable/versatile variants of each mech, because it seems to only be available for mc/money. I am not willing to pay money just to be able to play as the most capable version of a mech or to have the loadout that will take me likely months possibly years to get for just 1 mech

Even though I'm not competetive in this game anyway, I still don't like the idea of getting owned by people that have loadouts that I can't even work towards without paying money.

If you want to play as a certain mech, with a certain loadout, you either simply can't or may have to pay money. All I'm talking about is customization. Hardpoints limit your customization capabilities making you have to pay for a mech with different hardpoints/weapons. Each mech should only be limited by it's tonnage or possibly other factors, rather than hardpoints. I like the game, this is just my opinion. Because of hardpoints, I either have to grind and spend c bills on a new engine for my current spider or grind and spend c bills or buy a new spider/mech. I wasted all my c bills on the 5k at first. IMO the spider 5k when it is first bought is probably one of the most useless mechs in the game.. except for maybe distracting people?

When you say, you've not long played do you mean this game or the Battletech franchise in general, as all the mechs in the game with few exceptions are greatly expanded from their original form and if taken straight from the TRO's would have far less choices of weaponry and engine sizes.

PGI have already inflated the number and size of weapons to what many think is to far and open, you have to understand, this isn't Hawken or any other type of stompy robot game, it comes from a fictional 'history' that started in 1984, and in one form or another has continued until present day

[TripleEhBeef]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Precisely.

Whether these paid variants are in fact better or not is a matter of OPINION. I'm saying it takes away from the game and pisses new players off that they are up against people who are playing with builds that can't even be worked towards without paying.

Why flood my screen with extra GAMEPLAY CHANGING variants that are not purely cosmetic that certianly look fun and enticing to ALL players especially NEW players but when you click on it a message pops up "You need MC"

In Hawken this isn't the case. Eventually I CAN have the same exact mech loadout as anybody who paid. Even if I never paid. In Hawken, paying only makes you look really cool - money only allows you to take a mech that you worked hard to master and then make it your own, OR have the convenience of getting a decent loadout fast. Those paid loadouts however are available through grinding.

This is the truth

Unless the Anasasi can fit four Clantech Large Pulse Lasers with no heat, carry 12 jump jets, and run a Standard 400 engine with a 300% armour and structure HP bonus, it's not Pay to Win.

THAT'S the sort of thing people think of when you say Pay to Win.

Hero Mechs do little, if anything, to change the overall gameplay of MWO. Most Hero mech configurations can be cloned on CBill mechs, chassis quirks notwithstanding. Only a few are really unique.

EX, The common build for the Commando Death's Knell is an XL240 with 4 Medium Lasers. The Commando 1B can run an almost identical XL 240, 2 Medium Lasers, 1 Large Laser build.

There is a 1 point difference in firepower between the free Cbill variant and the MC variant. That's not even close to Pay to Win.


Overall Hero mechs are unique enough to be interesting and enjoyable, but none put you head and shoulders above other mechs in the variant line or the weight class in general. A Hunchback 4G can go toe to toe with a Yen Lo Wang any day of the week.

[zagibu]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

do u kniow wat ur talking about? seriously? 2 med lazers and machine guns is not more than 16 tons

Did you read the text I quoted? You talked about a spider with 2 ER Lasers in the chest, an AC/2 and a machinegun. That's more than 16 tons without ammo and heatsinks. It's not impossible to fit it on a spider, if you think you can go with the smallest engine and no armor, I give you that.

[patataman]

Mcgral18, on 11 April 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

Name each pay only variant that is better.


Dragon Slayer? Misery?
Ember isn't that robot anymore.


PGI has done a pretty good job on keeping them in line. One isn't obnoxiously better than anything you can buy with Cbills.

Locust PB lol

[One Medic Army]

patataman, on 12 April 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Locust PB lol

I could actually see Locust PB as a P2W argument, since it's the only 20ton mech in the game with ECM.

Then again, it's still a locust...

[bad arcade kitty]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

when you play MWO, the only spider available with 2 energy and 2 ballistic hard points COSTS MC, and there is NO C BILL OPTION TO PAY FOR IT

what is so hard to understand about this?

am i missing something?

it's not the best spider
the best spider it's spider 5d because it has ecm

if anything, http://metamechs.com...-lists/is-list/ counts anansi as the worst spider, lol

what's so special about 2 energy and 2 ballistic points? machine guns kind of suck anyway

anyway, buy a clan mech, you can freely swap hardpoints between versions there, go kit fox :3

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 12 April 2015 - 02:54 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

One Medic Army, on 12 April 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

I could actually see Locust PB as a P2W argument, since it's the only 20ton mech in the game with ECM.

Then again, it's still a locust...

meanwhile drizzle lynx is the only 25 tonnes mech with ecm in the game

[One Medic Army]

bad arcade kitty, on 12 April 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

meanwhile drizzle lynx is the only 25 tonnes mech with ecm in the game

The Commando-2D would like a word with you.

[bad arcade kitty]

One Medic Army, on 12 April 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

The Commando-2D would like a word with you.

aw, stupid me

[AEgg]

TripleEhBeef, on 12 April 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Unless the Anasasi can fit four Clantech Large Pulse Lasers with no heat, carry 12 jump jets, and run a Standard 400 engine with a 300% armour and structure HP bonus, it's not Pay to Win.

THAT'S the sort of thing people think of when you say Pay to Win.

-Snip-

This is exactly what this argument is about. How do you define "Pay to Win".

Your description is absolutely not what I think of when I think pay to win, and I'm not alone. Nobody even considers taking the term "pay to win" to mean you can pay money to win all the time. That's such an absurd concept that it isn't even a consideration for a lot of people. Honestly, I wouldn't even apply the term pay to win to that sort of game. I'd just stick with "Garbage". Those games aren't even worth the time needed to categorize them.

As far as I'm concerned, pay to win means "Something that affects gameplay is only available for real money". And that's it. Because if it affects gameplay, whether it's an advantage or a disadvantage will always be a matter of opinion, and we can't categorize based on opinion. That's also the description used by the developers behind most if not all of the DOtA clones and Valve, which are far and away the most successful (english speaking) free to play games out there.

[Mawai]

I haven't read all the posts so everything I say here has probably already been said ...

MWO is not pay to win and PGI has worked relatively hard to keep it that way.

What can you pay for in MWO?

MWO IS pay to get mechs faster
MWO IS pay to get weapons faster
MWO IS pay to reduce grind
MWO IS pay to obtain greater choice or variety
MWO IS pay to earn cbills faster
MWO IS pay to decorate more

Most of these can also be earned by cbills. However, mechs with a 30% cbill bonus, unique mechs with a 30% cbill bonus, mechs with a 30% XP bonus and various decorative items, camos and colours can only be bought for MC. None of these are "pay 2 win". None of these items give any significant or definable benefit in terms of winning the game.

So ... YES you can pay for a lot of things in MWO ... but none of them are winning.

You can pay for additional content in MWO in terms of mechs that are not accessible to folks playing for free but this is typical of many free 2 play games that offer access to additional classes, additional maps, and other forms of additional content for a fee.

[Mawai]

AEgg, on 12 April 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

This is exactly what this argument is about. How do you define "Pay to Win".

Your description is absolutely not what I think of when I think pay to win, and I'm not alone. Nobody even considers taking the term "pay to win" to mean you can pay money to win all the time. That's such an absurd concept that it isn't even a consideration for a lot of people. Honestly, I wouldn't even apply the term pay to win to that sort of game. I'd just stick with "Garbage". Those games aren't even worth the time needed to categorize them.

As far as I'm concerned, pay to win means "Something that affects gameplay is only available for real money". And that's it. Because if it affects gameplay, whether it's an advantage or a disadvantage will always be a matter of opinion, and we can't categorize based on opinion. That's also the description used by the developers behind most if not all of the DOtA clones and Valve, which are far and away the most successful (english speaking) free to play games out there.

... and I disagree.

Pay to win means exactly that .. paying to obtain something in a game that gives an advantage towards winning the game. Period. Paying for something that affects gameplay is ... "Pay to affect game play" ... it is NOT "pay to WIN" since the key is "WIN". If there is something that is only available in a game that gives a definite advantage the contribute to WINNING then it is pay to WIN.

When PGI first introduced consumables ... the MC variants were strictly better than the cbill versions. THAT was pay to win. You could choose to spend money to obtain a clear (if small) advantage in game that would contribute towards winning. PGI quite quickly introduced cbill variants that were equivalent to the MC ones. They required grinding for XP to unlock but there was no advantage anymore in spending money over grinding in game.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Hero mechs and pre-purchasing are the only two areas where MWO can arguably be considered pay to win. However, it isn't.

1 - Hero mechs: use the same technology, the same stats, the same interactions of game mechanics, with only two differences. First, they give a 30% c-bill bonus and a unique skin, neither of which is meaningful for this conversation. Second, though, are the unique combinations of hardpoints and hitboxes, which are.

2 - Pre-purchasing: this gives early access to those who pay to content that will be released generally after some time has passed.

Let's get early access out of the way first, since it's easy. Pay-for-convenience is not just a staple of the free-to-play genre, it's the second most justifiable and proper monetization path, after pay-for-vanity. The plain fact is that convenience is just that, convenient. Whether it's boosted earnings, or early access to content, or ease-of-use and quality-of-life enhancements, it's all the same: a person is trading money for time.

Now to the Hero mechs. First, let's get one thing out of the way. Heroes don't offer a single decisive advantage over competitor options that are available for free access. ECM Locust (really, Locust, about as inherently not-pay-to-win as possible)? ECM Spider, ECM Raven, ECM Uller, ECM Koshi, etc. Ballistic Stalker? Every other assault that does ballistics better (most of them). Missile Spider? The ECM Spider is hugely better.

The only thing it's possible to complain about with regard to Heroes is the unique combination of hardpoints and hitboxes. They don't offer special weapons, nor are they inherently tougher than other mechs, nor do they violate the inherent logic underlying the game mechanics in any other way.

A Medium Laser is a Medium Laser is a Medium Laser. A cGauss is a cGauss is a cGauss. Quirks can make a particular variant better with one or another weapon, but Hero mechs don't have excessive quirks. Somebody cited the YLW as a high-performance Hero, but the HBK-4G has better AC20 quirks. The Grid Iron has 50% Gauss cooldown, but the rest of the thing is a mess of miss-matched hardpoints and it requires an XL to use properly, which makes it effectively suicide - an XL Hunchback is generally a death trap, and one with a ballistic hunch carrying a volatile Gauss maximizes this weakness. Gauss GIs are some of the choicest targets in-game.

So, as long as PGI doesn't introduce a Hero with cross-faction tech, or with quirks that are exceptional without any drawbacks, or with game-breaking changes to the underlying mechanics of the game, Heroes are once again a pay-for-convenience (and for Heroes, pay-for-vanity in a big way) option, just in a different way. What you're doing is moving some weapons options from a chassis you don't want to play to one that you do, whether they be arm laser mounts on a Banshee, missiles on a Spider, ECM on a Locust, or whatever.

[Eximar]

Amazing so many would debate with someone that just joined today.

1/10

[Pjwned]

Considering how small and fast it is (with jumpjet capability) the Huginn has ridiculous DPS with its cooldown quirks, and the Pirate's Bane is the fastest mech you can get that has ECM.

Both of them are behind paywalls. It does bug me a bit actually, but there are other more pressing matters to deal with if you ask me.

[Naduk]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

When the average newcomer to this game thinks "customization" they are not thinking that the beloved customization will stop at wanting to put TWO ballistic guns on the arms and TWO energy weapons on the chest/chassis of your spider mech. It's like a slap in the face, but that's just my opinion.

For MWO, you gotta pay to go that far and get that crazy with your customization. But by that point it's not customization it's a new variant that costs the price of a whole new mech. I honestly do love this game though hehe

no you do not have to pay to get access to that customization
go to mech lab
above the grid of mechs you will see a drop down that says owned, change this to purchasable
scroll down through the plethora of mechs and find the one you want, purchase this mech for C-bills and away you go
once you own a mech you can change anything about it that is within the rules of the game

if you have purchased a mech and are really struggling with it and do not have the funds to get another one
you have two main options ahead of you
1. do it the hard way, slug it out with the variant you selected and get better, you have huge amounts of learning to do so this is going to happen as some point, some times a mech you thought you hated turns out to be your favorite
2. jump back into the trial mechs, they are not to shabby as far as builds go, not everything will be your cup of tea but there will always be at least one mech you can fall back on to make getting C-bills a little easier

ok , so now your path is laid out
how do you know what you want
go to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab
there you can browse every mech , you can look at its stock load out and experiment with builds and equipment with out spending any hard earned cbills
it will even give you a projection of how much it will cost you to fit the mech from scratch

smurfys also allows you to share builds, when you are considering a new mech have a look on the forums to see what people have been trying with your desired mech or even post your own builds and get feed back
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...00e11cb132843f9
if i was going with the spider 5k , thats what i would make, super fast, massive range on the laser, massive armour
and lovely machine guns for finishing people off after sniping with the laser

lastly
NEVER SELL EQUIPMENT!!
do not sell weapons, or engines or heatsinks or armour
if you feel you hate a chassis enough to sell it, only sell the frame
customizing future mechs is not a costly task when you have a stock pile of weapons and engines laying about