132 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

I'd say that the Wang is the best centurion hands down...

Hands down? I dunno, I think it's rather close between the Wang and the AH.

In fact, the AH has the Wang beat for alpha as long as ammo to the triple SRM-4s lasts. In a protracted fight, yeah, the Wang comes out on top. In short brawls though, the AH beats the Wang.

Personally though, I prefer the venerable old A variant - but that's me

Edited by stjobe, 12 April 2015 - 07:56 AM.

[sneeking]

Beats it for alpha at what range ?

I say the AH beats it for sustainable dps not for potential alpha.

[stjobe]

sneeking, on 12 April 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Beats it for alpha at what range ?

The range of the AC/20 they both mount as main weaponry.

sneeking, on 12 April 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

I say the AH beats it for sustainable dps not for potential alpha.

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

the AH has the Wang beat for alpha as long as ammo to the triple SRM-4s lasts. In a protracted fight, yeah, the Wang comes out on top. In short brawls though, the AH beats the Wang.

[Averen]

MWO had a very, very clear case of Pay to Win: Clans. Atm TBR&Co are the strongest mechs in the game and buyable with CBill. Before that, we had no quirks, clan lasers were stronger, certain variants of TBR&Co weren't nerfed yet. Shortly after Clan release the PPCs even got their speed-nerf.
You pay money and got mechs far stronger than anyone not buying the pack. That's the purest definition of Pay to Win. And it doesn't matter what happens later. Ofc the mechs can't be OP forever, because nobody would buy anything else for it's power. So the new stuff needs to keep coming.
That also happened to a lesser extent with heromechs: Many of them were kinda bad, but Ember, YLW and Misery were quite a bit better than their CBill counterparts. The Misery was the strongest mech in the whole game until clans and IS-quirks.
And current forms of P2W? Why else would you buff Timber, Dire and Crow? 4 Lasers in a Crows arm, a Timber unnerf in form of STs with Launchers and no jets, a dire getting a headlaser and jump jets.
And while it's not a strong mech by itself, a nova with both ST E-slots will certainly a bit stronger than other novas, where the greatest vulnerability lies in loosing arms.

WonderSparks, on 12 April 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

tl;dr
"P2W" is not a title that fits in MWO. Either deal with the slow grind to gather C-bills (learning as you go to help reduce the amount of dying you do and increase the amount of killing you do), or shut your trap, pack up and go home. Sorry to be blunt and rude, but face facts, the game is what it is.

This btw... Calling ones own opinion fact and then insulting all people holding other opinions... What can you even say to that? Please stop being an ass?
Not to mention there are ultra-obvious examples where buying a pack got you better equipment. Seems like the confirmation bias is off the charts.

Edited by Averen, 12 April 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[warner2]

Durant Carlyle, on 12 April 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

You're lucky. We didn't get a Cadet Bonus.

And this game is decidedly NOT pay to win. The 'Mechs that are available for real money aren't any better than the in-game money 'Mechs.

From memory I don't think this is entirely true. I think, if you started playing before the cadet bonus, like me, then when it came along PGI gave it to you retrospectively. So every player, new and old, got some form of cadet bonus.

[Burktross]

sneeking, on 12 April 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

Lol then he is complaining about playing

he wants to just have everything without making any effort...

Perhaps then he should pay ( real money ) and not play.

If only terrible grind equated to effort.

Because if your game's gameplay is the grind.
There's a big problem.

Edited by Burktross, 12 April 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[Fate 6]

One Medic Army, on 11 April 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

It's only pay to win if they're better (ahem, Misery, looking at you).

Pay-2-Win is paying money to get an advantage over other players, which is different than having additional options. Additional options are only P2W if they're upgrades rather than side grades.

Hero variants aren't (generally speaking) any better than non-hero variants.

I can name several hero variants that ARE better though. For a long time the Ilya was the best CTF, the YLW was (and arguably still is) the best Centurion, the Grid Iron is the best or second best Hunchback, the Sparky may be the best Griffin, the Misery was for a long time the best Stalker, the Ember was considered the best Firestarter before quirks, the Dragon Slayer is the best Victor. There are some that just clearly perform different roles (Huginn, IV-Four) and do them well, which is also a unique gameplay aspect locked behind money.

Sometimes Heros really are pay-to-win (even a small advantage is an advantage) and there are some that make the game more interesting. Either one isn't very good for a F2P game in the long run.

[Barantor]

The OP just pointed out how inadequate the "New Player Experience" is in this game.

If MWO goes to steam like this, expect questions and concerns like this x1,000 and expect them to never come here and instead be on the steam forums.

I've had several friends try out this game and spend their cadet bonus without asking me questions and then regret it, some not returning to the game.

People can tell OP things like "L2P" or whatever, but if PGI doesn't get their crap together before steam there might not be a game to L2P....

[Durant Carlyle]

There will always be idiots who don't use the readily available internet to research this game, just as they don't research anything else before buying and then berating it. Those are also the people who don't RTFM.

NPE does not equate to success. Hand-holding does not equate to success. If people quit because they did something stupid with their Cadet Bonus, they weren't going to be long-term MW:O players anyway. If they quit rather than learn from their mistake and keep going, we don't want them here.

[Durant Carlyle]

warner2, on 12 April 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

From memory I don't think this is entirely true. I think, if you started playing before the cadet bonus, like me, then when it came along PGI gave it to you retrospectively. So every player, new and old, got some form of cadet bonus.

We didn't get the Cadet Bonus WHEN IT WOULD HAVE MATTERED MOST.

Better now?

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 12 April 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Averen, on 12 April 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

MWO had a very, very clear case of Pay to Win: Clans. Atm TBR&Co are the strongest mechs in the game and buyable with CBill. Before that, we had no quirks, clan lasers were stronger, certain variants of TBR&Co weren't nerfed yet. Shortly after Clan release the PPCs even got their speed-nerf.
You pay money and got mechs far stronger than anyone not buying the pack. That's the purest definition of Pay to Win. And it doesn't matter what happens later. Ofc the mechs can't be OP forever, because nobody would buy anything else for it's power. So the new stuff needs to keep coming.

Paying to Get Stuff Early isn't Pay to Win.

[Tarogato]

MessyBopzz, on 11 April 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

<all of your posts in this thread>

There's no pay-to-win about it.

Like said earlier, many clan mechs, plus Urbie, plus the Resistance mechs (PNT, ENF, GHR, ZEU) are all "pay for early access".

Hero mechs, like the Anansi, offer a premium bonus to their earnings and a unique hardpoint layout to use that you can't do on other variants. They're not actually better, and game balance is in a constant state of flux. The Ember used to be the most p2w mech in the game, as well as the Dragon Slayer. Now both of them are kinda terrible in the new meta and there are no premium mechs in the game anymore that are strictly better than standard variants.

Why buy Spiders? Because you like them. They're fun little mechs that run fast, are hard to hit, and can do some very nice scouting and backstabbing. Everybody can make a mistake and buy the wrong first mech. My first mech was a Trebuchet 7M and it was TERRRIBBBLEEE for me. I mean, it's not a bad mech and it never was - it looked good on paper and I did a LOT of research on builds and playstyle and seeking advice on the forums, but when I got my hands on it, I hated how it played and ended up selling it very shortly thereafter. Even after making that early mistake I'm still playing this game and I'm completely free-to-play - I haven't spent a penny on the game yet, I even got my Urbie package for free. So yes, it's completely free-to-play and there's no pay-to-win about it. The Huginn is an extremely strong, pretty much OP light mech. But is it really pay-to-win if the free-to-play FS9-A is really the stronger mech?

[Bishop Steiner]

sneeking, on 12 April 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Except I never put one on it lol...

Then ya doing it wrong, laddie, ya doing it wrong. Srry.
300XL, ac20, ammox4, 2 mpl. It's the one true wang.

bad arcade kitty, on 12 April 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

kind of funny, you can run that build on adder... well with only 2 tonnes of ammo though (if we put 4 tonnes of armor, lb-20x and 2 mpl, generally it has 6 tonnes with the gun and lasers without armor and ammo free, yen with xl300 has 11.5)

yeah except the YLW has some arm reflex, has far better hitboxes, and better armor.... and 2 more tons of ammo for it's PP-FLD AC20.

So, yeah, pretty much the same in every way but none, lol....

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Hands down? I dunno, I think it's rather close between the Wang and the AH.

In fact, the AH has the Wang beat for alpha as long as ammo to the triple SRM-4s lasts. In a protracted fight, yeah, the Wang comes out on top. In short brawls though, the AH beats the Wang.

Personally though, I prefer the venerable old A variant - but that's me

I like the DPS of the 3x SRM2 on it, honestly, but oddly enough, my most effective Centy has become my AutoShotty CN9-D, best avg damage, KDr, etc. Of course, my Piledriver HBK-4G tops ALL of them, for me....... but I still love my Cents.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

The range of the AC/20 they both mount as main weaponry.

hmmm...that extra speed and quicker twist, IMO, still favor the Wang. Plus pulse lasers outrange the SRMs are can be tracked onto target for some damage. You get to knife fighting range, the AH has a better alpha potential, it's true, but not massively, and I think the Wangs speed and twist still matter more, t least for my style of play. Since it let's me determine the engagement ranges better.

[Evan20k]

I found a thread full of people that haven't accepted their lord and savior Anansi into their life yet. Seriously, this thing is a monster if you know what you're doing with it.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 April 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

hmmm...that extra speed and quicker twist, IMO, still favor the Wang. Plus pulse lasers outrange the SRMs are can be tracked onto target for some damage. You get to knife fighting range, the AH has a better alpha potential, it's true, but not massively, and I think the Wangs speed and twist still matter more, t least for my style of play. Since it let's me determine the engagement ranges better.

Yeah, and I actually prefer the A to them both. But the discussion was of which is better, and I don't think the Wang is "hands down" better than the AH. Slightly perhaps (due to quirks and being able to go faster), and if the fight lasts the AH will run out of ammo and lose, but damn, AC/20 + 3xSRM-4 is going to tear anyone a new one quite a bit faster than the Wang's AC/20 + dual MPL can.

And that really was my main objection - the Wang isn't "hands down" better than any other CN9. It's arguably better

[Water Bear]

I feel like this thread is 6 pages long because it has a belligerent OP who responds frequently.

/Thread happened after about the first 10 posts on page 1.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fate 6, on 12 April 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Sometimes Heros really are pay-to-win (even a small advantage is an advantage) and there are some that make the game more interesting. Either one isn't very good for a F2P game in the long run.

I could not like this or spam this enough to do this statement justice.

Many of us have said this since the introduction of heroes and it still stands. Come steam release I foresee this being one of many points of contention among many new players. You shouldn't paywall styles of play in a game that tries to boast about the myriad of different roles it supposedly has.

Offer them for c-bills without the camo and c-bill bonus, hell you could make it so that you have to master the chassis before you can even buy it for c-bills and it would still be a better method of going about it. PGI will save themselves a lot of flak for the steam release because this will be the first of many threads to come when that day roles around...

[stjobe]

MessyBopzz, on 12 April 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

am i missing something?

Possibly that having just two ballistic hardpoints on a light is useless? The MG sucks donkey's balls in quantities less than three, and a single AC/2 on a Spider is well... underwhelming.

[Salinor]

For all who say that wang or AH is best centurion I say that best centurion is CN9-A (though I have the build on the AH for c-bill bonus) with 3 srm6s uac5 and xl250. I've tried the AC20, I'm not sure why but 3 srm6s just feels so much more effective plus I have the uac5 for those long range fights.