82 replies to this topic

[epikt]

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too much ECM

A good narcer can handle multiple ECMs. Actually, that's their job. The UAV also helps to clear the ground when you have problems, given your team is coordinated enough.

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enemies are good enough to swarm a boat

A good narcer works with a good LRM-boat. And a good LRM-boat stay with the pack so they're not swarmed without punishment.

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the map provides easy cover

Each map favors certain type of weapons. On maps like Caustic Valley or Alpine Peaks being narced without the possibility to hide under a friendly ECM means death. On maps like River City it's very easy to find cover. Deal with it, use LRMs to suppress the enemy's movement and charge them to a brawl, and them it will create opportunities for LRM damage.

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your LRM boat is done

One more reason for the boat not to play turretwarrior online 1km away from the team.
But it happens they're taken down. In that situation the narcer's "firepower" is indeed diminished, but they still have weapons (3 MPLas on my Raven form example, certainly not a Firestarter but deals decent amount of damage) and the NARC still makes a precious spotting tool even for direct fire mechs (I don't know about you, but I like knowing where the enemy is before I actually see them).
Also, if an LRM-boat is focused and taken down early, it's most of the time because they were identified as a threat and have already dealt some damage and/or put pressure on the enemy.

[Spheroid]

I love my Jenner-K narc build. However it does not make a lot money for the huge risks involved.

I simply enjoy the skill exercise of jump narcing and evasive maneuvering. On a Raven I would definitely strip it.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

NARCs are very heavy and a bit hard to use without a lot of practice, plus their effectiveness varies wildly depending on team comp, which is unreliable at best in PUGs.

That said, if you have a mech that you don't want to run SRMs on but you do want to use the missile hardpoint because the energy options are just not quite sufficient, NARC can be useful, and if you are duo-dropping or otherwise rolling in a group and can coordinate with the team you can radically boost your NARC usefulness by arranging for LRM support on your allies.

JR7-K is a little slow for a light, but still fast enough to get by, and might run a bit hot if you push the MPLs, but it's got essentially max armor, solid firepower, and a NARC with 12 beacons.

As for how to use them, follow this priority list:

1 - Does the enemy have ECM? If so, NARC it and use VOIP to get the team to murder the ECM carriers while their ECM is offline.

2 - Does the team have LRMs? If so, NARC targets of opportunity and use VOIP to get folks to shoot them.

3 - Does the enemy lack ECM and your team lack LRMs, but combat has begun? As you do your skirmish runs and drive-by attacks, NARC a target of opportunity (assuming you don't already have a beacon up). Then, use VOIP to get people to focus the victim. Try to maintain one active beacon at a time to avoid your team splitting focus and to limit the wasted beacon up-time.

4 - Is it right at the beginning of the match and your team is not in position? Don't run off and NARC, especially if it will get you killed. You won't get any bonuses even, as the beacon will expire before your team can do anything with it.

[YCSLiesmith]

epikt, on 12 April 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Also, if an LRM-boat is focused and taken down early, it's most of the time because they were identified as a threat and have already dealt some damage and/or put pressure on the enemy.

actually it's because they were identified as a vulnerable joke and swarmed with lights (or even one light) hungry for kills.

[Insects]

A NARC plus a few good LRM users is devastating in an organised group.
Can be one of the more hilarious troll tactics too, watching an entire team go into panic mode when all their ECM is knocked out and half the team telling each other they have narc symbols.

Useless in PUG games where none of the LRM assaults know how to listen for spotter instructions or identify that there is a NARC+TAG target in the open while they pour LRM at the Urbie in the tunnel.

Of course you can just run Firestarter instead and do 500+ damage yourself with the light slot.
But a good NARC support is alright with a team who know how to work with it. Something different from the normal damage dealing. There are tactics involved to take out the ECM's, call targets without cover, identify most threatening players and deal them a death sentence.

Rewards are pretty pathetic though, you have to do it for the teamwork and fun of the tactics.

[YCSLiesmith]

that's pretty useless against an organized team that doesn't panic when they start getting targeted with LRMs.

[epikt]

YCSLiesmith, on 13 April 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

actually it's because they were identified as a vulnerable joke and swarmed with lights (or even one light) hungry for kills.

One more time: a well positioned LRM-boat can't be swarmed, at least not without the swarmers being seriously punished, because they're covered by their whole team.

I feel like all objections to NARC and/or LRMs are based on two thoughts:
1/ it's not used at competitive level - that's true, for good reasons, but it doesn't apply to more than 95% of the playerbase;
2/ assumption the only way to pilot LRM-boats is to stand behind, waiting to be warmed - that's just false.

[JC Daxion]

epikt, on 13 April 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

One more time: a well positioned LRM-boat can't be swarmed, at least not without the swarmers being seriously punished, because they're covered by their whole team.

I feel like all objections to NARC and/or LRMs are based on two thoughts:
1/ it's not used at competitive level - that's true, for good reasons, but it doesn't apply to more than 95% of the playerbase;
2/ assumption the only way to pilot LRM-boats is to stand behind, waiting to be warmed - that's just false.

totally agree..


But that said, I tend not to use NARC on most of my mech builds, I prefer BAP or Tag, I typically run either or, not both. But i might find a mech that Narc is worth using one day, as the canceling of ECM is really a huge bonus especially for pugs, Target the NARC'd mech! Often in pugs people will listen to simple commands like that. Which can help people understand targeting the ECM mech first is always a good thing

Tag is great for getting a lock on something far away so you can check if it has any weaknesses. Nothing like spotting that ECM mech way off in the distance, and then it pops on radar and you notice an open torso, and gets hammered by your teammates.


It really is to bad that LRM mechs get such a bad rap, i know i have lots of fun in them. It's not like a Gauss mech, or ERLL, or ERPPC sniper, or what ever has never sat at 800-1k range.. (or even further from the group because there are weapons that have longer range than LRM's..) No not once has anyone ever used those Weapon systems so far from the group they are hurting, rather than helping or died with not even pulling 100 damage... Truly baffling.

I'm just hoping one day we finally get episodic single player/Co-op Maybe in 2016.. I would totally get founder for that! then the casuals could play the rocking game, and not worry what anyone else thinks.

Edited by JC Daxion, 13 April 2015 - 09:50 AM.

[YCSLiesmith]

epikt, on 13 April 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

One more time: a well positioned LRM-boat can't be swarmed, at least not without the swarmers being seriously punished, because they're covered by their whole team.

I feel like all objections to NARC and/or LRMs are based on two thoughts:
1/ it's not used at competitive level - that's true, for good reasons, but it doesn't apply to more than 95% of the playerbase;
2/ assumption the only way to pilot LRM-boats is to stand behind, waiting to be warmed - that's just false.

Haha this is not at all true but I dont want to ruin this thread by going into exhaustive detail about why LRMs are the worst weapon you can possibly put on your mech.

[Richter Kerensky]

Yeah don't bother with a NARC or Tag Laser on your light, it's tonnage you can almost always use to better effect, like an extra laser, more armor, or a larger engine.

[Richter Kerensky]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 April 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Thanks guys, this is all pretty much what I've discovered, but I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

Right now I'm running 2ERLs or (my preferred) LP/2MP build on the Raven 3L. Carrying narc just felt gimpy, and when I play with my team the shot-callers seem to do just fine without narc'd targets.

Check out the Raven 2X, which can run 3 large lasers. It's a beast.

[focuspark]

NARC is only useful if your teammates bring LRM. Never assume if you're NARC that you're also the LRM because that basically never works out.

[Shinikaru]

Don't use N.A.R.C. or LRM 'BOAT 'if your new. Narc is for coms, and community or guild drops. It def has its use, but its not for PUGS.
Lrms, contrary to first appearance, require quite a bit of skill to use; and also team support to do well with. Simply loading on 6 LRM launchers and 6 tons of ammo wont get you a very good score or make you particularly useful to the team if you just sit at base with them and fire at blind red triangles.

Edited by Shinikaru, 13 April 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Dedicated spotting in a light takes a backseat to combat effectiveness. This is why the light game is dominated by the FS9-S w/ MPL and FS9-A w/SPL. Then you have the kites lights such as the RVN-2X with 2xLL, 2xML or 3xLL. There are also niche but sometimes effective roles such as the splat SRM Huggin.

The spotter is really only worth it if your team is going to town on LRMs. That is its own mixed bag because LRMs are more situational than direct fire. Superior opponents are often be able to mitigate LRMs with positioning and ECM coverage. With that said, it is in the game and I really do hate getting NARC'd.


more information here
https://docs.google....d.gb8ed7ef2_037

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 April 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Dino Might]

Heavies make better NARC platforms, in particular the Mad Dog, because it can carry six of them with enough ammo to last the match. Remember, if you're going to bring something in MWO, you'd better boat it.

[Dawnstealer]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 April 2015 - 12:51 AM, said:

Can someone try to sell me on narcs for lights? I've played around with them on my Raven 3L and am very underwhelmed. Seems like a waste of tonnage and firepower. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

Sure, there is that rare moment when I narc and call out to my missle boats who all converge and waste the poor guy, but that's happening maybe once per 20 matches.

And are the laser and AC builds really getting any bang for the buck from a narc'd target? Seems like they are usually out of position to take advantage, or don't really need it to begin with.

I can see the utility of bringing your own narc if you are an LRM build and (played correctly) get LOS on your target long enough to narc him, but for lights? Seems like a waste, although I'm open to being convinced otherwise...

I made this one and it's pretty fun:

COM-2D

The upsides are that you're running ECM, so you can zip in on an enemy at 149kph (once speed tweaked), NARC them, and bolt off before they even know that you're there. OBVIOUSLY the downside is that whopping 6-point alpha. You will never get gobs of damage in this thing (I've cracked 200 a couple times, but that's rare), and you'll probably never lead your team in kills, but if your teammates have LRMs? This thing is BRUTAL for the enemy. With 24 shots with the NARC, you can take a few more risks with your shots.

Takes a special breed to be that reliant on teammates, and there have definitely been a few times when I'd go out, NARC out the enemy's sole ECM, only to watch the LRM boats on my team launch wave after wave into the ground at the feet of a fleeing Locust.

...but the build is sound.

[JC Daxion]

Dino Might, on 15 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Heavies make better NARC platforms, in particular the Mad Dog, because it can carry six of them with enough ammo to last the match. Remember, if you're going to bring something in MWO, you'd better boat it.

You know i have been pondering this topic over the last few days.. and, mechs that came to mind that a NARC could work in builds are, Kintaro, trebutchet, Quickdraw, stalker, and highlander, perhaps even a centurion. Especially if you play in pugs, as some times that ECM is just a total PIA. It can really help target mechs of priority, or get people to focus. Especially when learning to play, often as a new player your job is not to do top damage, and have 4 kills. It is to help add damage, maybe drop an ECM, or add it to your own team, help pop a target on radar, stick with the main group and adding weight.

Though i still kinda think anything under 50 tons, it might not be worth using.

but to the OP's topic, i do agree with others that lights might not be the best choice, though i do think a spider can add a BAP, as with the death's Knell. Perhaps the 45 ton vindicator might be a decent narc mech. (personally i have not played this mech, but i could see some potential builds that fit a narc on it, that might be worth trying.) Both of which can help take the place of Narc to some degree.

[Mechteric]

In a PUG, using NARC to temporarily knock out enemy ECM (or on an enemy that has no nearby ECM friendlies) is about the only use since you can't always rely on friendlies with reliable LRMs.


But using NARC in a group queue situation where you on TS with others that you know have LRMs can be effective if you use it to make sure the one target is the focus of fire between you.

[Bront]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 12 April 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

Actually, NARC has another use, but it's hard to take full advantage of.

Specifically, this is based on the fact that a NARC beacon on an enemy 'mech will allow your team members to see its location and target lock it as though it were being observed by a teammate, regardless of whether or not anyone at all can see it.

Essentially, it becomes a hilariously effective scouting tool, assuming you can figure out the right time and place to peek at the enemy and NARC one (or more) of them. Once the beacon is on, you're free to flee or even die (though fleeing is probably preferable) and your entire team will now know where that enemy is until the beacon's internal battery (duration) wears out. This information benefits your whole team, no matter what weaponry they have.

It's really best used for this when you're part of a group that is used to working together, but it can still be handy in pure-pick-up matches as well. Unfortunately, it's not -really- worth the full weight of the launcher and ammo without someone out there using at least Streaks if not LRMs to take advantage of it.

Actually, information is even more useful when you're not dropping with a large group on Coms.

In the solo queue, a match can sometimes be determined by a single UAV. Letting your team know where all the enemies are, and potentially drawing LRM fire is a huge bonus. NARC works in a similar way, while only with one mech, it can't be shot off, and can counter ECM. Giving info to 11 other players without you having to say a single word.

That said, LRM boats should be willing and able to get their own targets. A NARC/TAG mech should be a bonus for them, not just a requirement. People complain LRMs is an easy button, but a good LRM mech pilot can make the best out of most bad situations and be quite valuable to the team.

Generally, my thoughts are this:
For CW:
Any vs IS - LRMs can play a role, but don't rely on them solely. ECM isn't easy to come by, but Direct Fire can generally trump LRMs if applied correctly, so it may help, but it needs to be used with caution, and not relied on as a sole method of attack.

Any vs Clans - ECM is easy to take for the clans. At best, LRMs may have some small use, but they're easy to counter and quite often there's enough ECM to make them nearly useless. Generally best to avoid it or at least not devote a lot of tonnage to it.

For the queues:
Solo/PUG - LRMs may work great, or may be useless. Lots of variance on ECM, Map, and helpful teammates make it a huge gamble. If you learn to spot for yourself, you can reduce the gamble quite a bit, but you can still get shut out.

Group - With coordination, LRMs can be deadly, but a competent team can simply charge your position if you go too LRM heavy. Still a gamble, but less so depending on your team, and possibly your group's ELO (The lower, the better for LRMs)

Comp - Unless the maps and setup make LRMs shine (A no ECM on Caustic conflict for example), LRMs are generally a no-show here. Too easy to counter, and most comp teams are filled with players who know how to avoid missiles in the air, as well as have modules like Radar Derp and know the maps. Too easy to be rendered useless.

But NARC? Has a possible place. It has several uses.

[Satan n stuff]

epikt, on 12 April 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

Luck based... Seriously?

Being a good narcer does not involves luck. At all. But it requires being a good shot, good situation awareness and being able to correctly prioritize your targets. Without that you'll definitely be wasted tonnage.
As a spotting tool I find the NARC infinitely superior to the TAG: all you need is one shot and you're good for 40 seconds, without the need to expose yourself.
As for the initial question, about NARC specifically on a light mech, it's in my opinion the only place you'd want that equipment. In other word: NARC on the (light) spotter, TAG on the LRM-boat.
I'm personally using NARC on the Panther (abusing the JJs) and the Raven (when I want ECM), both with success.

That being said, there are some things not to do with NARC:
- don't drop solo with a narcer, that would be indeed a waste of tonnage at least 50% of the time. Only drop in group with enough LRM firepower;
- yet, don't turn your team into an LRM focus squad, LRM+NARC works best in combination with direct firepower, for both defence and offence.

NARC works well on some heavier mechs, notably the Catapult A1, the Mad Dog and certain Stalker variants, they have enough missile hardpoints to mount a decent amount of LRMs with a NARC and enough tonnage for ammo for both. If you use a NARC with your LRMs I recommend not using Artemis because the bonuses don't stack.
Anything with at least 4 missile hardpoints can use NARC + standard guidance LRMs as a substitute for TAG + Artemis LRMs without having to cut down much on ammo, the real tradeoff here is better indirect fire at the cost of shorter effective range.
For the Catapult A1 NARC is the only way to counter ECM at range without a teammate spotting for you so I highly recommend using NARC on it.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 16 April 2015 - 12:57 AM.