88 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I have two alts. One runs IS and has had zero trouble with funding. The other is Clan exclusive and has had zero trouble with funding. I've not spent a cent on either account.

As for pay-to-win, the OP obviously has no idea what that means. MWO is pay for vanity, MWO is pay for convenience, but MWO is decidedly not pay to win.

That said, MWO currently has a difficult new player experience. This is more due to the plethora of options with a nearly entirely opaque interface than to any actual problems mechanically. New players without any prior experience get thrown into the deep end. Proper tutorials that dealt with the mechlab and detailed game mechanics would be invaluable, and PGI really should consider simply handing new players three mechbays with three Hunchbacks as part of the achievement system (I'd prefer one per tutorial completion, assuming PGI added at least two more tutorials).

[Telmasa]

The game has a painful c-bill econoomy. Premium time largely solves it, hero mechs to a lesser extent.

The only pay-2-win part of the game are the consumables.

[KharnZor]

Telmasa, on 14 April 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

The game has a painful c-bill econoomy. Premium time largely solves it, hero mechs to a lesser extent.

The only pay-2-win part of the game are the consumables.

And even then its still not really pay to win, i mean who spends MC on them?
Anyone willing to admit they spent MC on consumables?

[STEF_]

Here my experience.
This is the first acc I spent real money, and ...having fun.
This because I chose to have many alt account so to farm that big bonus, and so I could afforb to buy many mechs...but in different accounts.
It is not P2W...but the game is extremely boring: with that bonus I always could afford 3 mechs and mastering them.
But that's all, because if I wanted to buy mechs of another classes I was screw.... the Paulconomy requires tooooo way many matches.
I was good if I could have 100000 c-bills per match, average. BUT with that income is IMPOSSIBLE to buy and pimp a mech with a decent time/amount of matches.
Look at the costs: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a49849da7b88f94
After that bonus, you need 10 millions for a jenner, for instance: that is 100 matches, with that average 100000c-bills per match.
And you cannot even master it, because you need 3 jenner.

SO, I ended to have a lot of alt account, but ZERO fun if I wanted to farm c-bills to buy more mechs.

Spending real money with this account, it's been far more easier to buy all the mechs I wanted, and I around a year I managed to buy with this account all the mechs I was interest in, thanks to heros, clan prime and bonus time.

Not p2w, but more fun.

That's said, a hint of PGI staff: if you really want to succed in Steam release, change Paulconomy (and make a lot of improvement too). Only crazy mw and bt fun like me, can bear and stand here after the paulconomy torture.

But new players will disappear in a blink.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 April 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

KharnZor, on 14 April 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

And even then its still not really pay to win, i mean who spends MC on them?
Anyone willing to admit they spent MC on consumables?

I do not, aren't the MC versions the same as the improved c bill versions anyway?

[KharnZor]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 April 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

I do not, aren't the MC versions the same as the improved c bill versions anyway?

I've still not used any of the mc consumables that i've gotten from various events.

[STEF_]

Bagheera, on 14 April 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

Yeah, no.

Nice try, but no.

Combat Arms was P2W. Well, until it became Hack2Win. Go give something like that a try, then come back to this and you'll see the difference.

Is it faster to collect shinies if you buy some MC, or order some of the packs as they are released? Sure. Is it necessary to win matches or take down opponents? Absolutely not.

But my experimental "Let's see what the new user experience is like" alt had just under 11mil in the bank after the Cadet Bonuses expired. I could have easily started out on the CheeseCrow path with that if I had wanted, but I can't bring myself to drive that VatBaby garbage - even with an alternate account that's destined to be abandoned.

So I bought an IS medium with an interesting quirk and spent the rest custom building it to fit the quirk. As an experiment. Something different to do that didn't mess about with this toon's inventory, or whatever.

There's - literally - nothing that can only be purchased with an RMT that is an outright advantage. A Locust can take down the beefiest DireWhale when used properly - and even when the Whales were pre-order or MC only that was still possible - which means no, not p2w.

Period.

This debate has been going on since Closed, and it's as silly now as it is then. Even MC only consumables are not game changers, and those are the only things even approaching p2w territory. And by "approaching" I mean - "could have been a problem but so totally aren't."

NoobFlush is still the stupidest addition to MW ever in the history of Mechs in all of the games, but that's a different topic because there are versions available for MC and Cbills.

If you want to know why there are no new players, or why player retention is bad you need to look at the gameplay, not the payment structure.

This **** gets stale fast unless you're the most DieHard CBT fan. Endless scrums on simple maps with no real need for in-depth info war or variation of strategy (in PUBs).

Read threads on CW - those matches also become stale fast.

For new players, the tutorials are still lackluster, information about how to build is non-existant, the Mechlab and inventory and shopping UIs are beyond cumbersome.

It's not the pay structure that's the problem. It's kinda mostly everything else.

The core matches are pretty fun for a little bit, but that only goes so far. The "Feel" of mechs are still really good - but that only appeals to the base.

I could go on, but you get the point. The F2P model they're using is definitely NOT the reason there are issues with player retention.

Quite agree with all, but not with this: "If you want to know why there are no new players, or why player retention is bad you need to look at the gameplay, not the payment structure."
PGI should look at the gameplay AND the payment structure.
Because a newbie can buy and learn to play thanks to cadet bonus.
But, then, if he want to buy other mechs he saw in the battleground, he must chain himself at the pc, grinding and grinding, OR he must spend for heroes/bonus time or mechs.
A new player attracted by "play for free" will disappear or will decide to die by boredom/grind Paulconomy.

[LordNothing]

if you think that paying sane amounts of money will make the game any less grindy then you are gravely mistaken.

the only way you can truely get rid of the grind is to be a whale. you will soon have all the things, have it mastered, and quickly get bored.

[MikeBend]

New player expirience sucks. Thats not even debatable. The game needs a good built-in PVE tutorial, a thorough in-game description of EVERYTHING, and maybe, just maybe - after finishing the cadet matches, a player should be given a single mech variant of his choice(lets say chose mech of each weight class - 1 clan, 1 IS). So they would get 1 mech as a gift and buy the other one with cadet bonus. What this gives is: Take 2 variants, get third quicker, so you can elite it. Or - get 2 different mechs, to have more different playstyles, without resorting to uncustomizable trial mechs.

[Estonniel]

Step 1: the start explore with trail mechs what kind of size / type of mech fits you most, don't hit the field of battle right away and hit the training grounds. and learn the in and outs of your mech.

Step 2: check a Faction hub on Teamspeak, don't be shy and ask questions. remember there are NO STUPID QUESTIONS - only stupid answers.

Step 3: if a person has time he can give you the in and outs of a few mechs and give pointers on the mech you choose after a load of training ground runs how to play the mech in a selected role. as the biggest mech with the most guns wont always be your thing.

Step 4: Drop with the guy who informed you about some pointers if he wants or can. if he cant just check in the open channels if you can drop with a few guys on that Teamspeak. often you can find just casual drops going on, View what they are doing and how they are moving / shooting. you'd be surprised how much you can learn by just observing them play. and win your first cadet bonus C-bills in your trail mech.

Step 5: finish the 25 Cadet bonus games aiming for 1 or 2 kills and about 300 damage (it doesn't seem a lot vs some others sometimes but its acceptable if you survive the game and played your part)

After all this if i recall you can have enough C-bills for i think up till a IS Heavy Mech or a Clan Light (try to avoid Clan Tech for later they are always way to expensive as a starter. however from this point on yes your left on your own 1 mistake or wrong choice that you as a new guy often might make is. i seem to lose a lot this mech doesn't fit me and sell it, DONT as everything you sell is always 50% of the value of what you obtained and if you don't have a sum of C-bills gathered it will kill your gaming experience Fast as you cant affort anything after that first Mech choice when the Cadet bonus has ended.

also at this stage i might agree on Mikebend giving the ppl who just finished the Cadet achievement series a choice of Mech Chassis, Unsellable Cadet Customizable Mech (a trail mech that you can configure buy and sell things for but can not sell) like a Cadet Welcome Mech. and using the earned C-bills for anything they wish. changing the loadout of the New Recruit Mech or buying a New one (different varient of what they chose or a different mech) and leave em like normal after.

Altho the question should this Mech that the new players get be like a Bonus C-bill mech or a Champion type mech. both work just fine, but if its a bonus C-bill mech it would speed up the C-bill grind of F2P guys. i personally did buy a Hero Mech after a short time when i finished the cadet bonus Many years ago back in beta just for this reason. Make Money faster to just experiment with the little mechs i had back then. but that choice id leave to PGI what to make of it. but the New Recruit Mech idea i kinda like personally as a mech you choose and simply cant sell.

[GreyNovember]

Then let's set a standard.

Suppose I'm a new player. Even if I'm terrible at the game, by the end of my cadet bonus, what should I be able to afford, so I can have a reasonably fun time and have a hook to keep me in the game?

3 heavies, one of which being fully upgraded?

[Appogee]

See sig.

Incidentally, I've sunk more than $1500 into the game and I still think the CBill grind is ridiculously bad.

Edited by Appogee, 15 April 2015 - 01:43 AM.

[Jimmy Page]

OP is crazy. They give you free stuff every weekend. Free mech bays, free mechs, premium time, free GXP, free XP. Stop whining and learn to play. This game is better than it ever has been.

[sneeking]

OP choose your best mech from behind the pay wall and face me in a mech of my choosing from the f2p range in a 1v1 session and demonstrate a consistent pattern of winning

[Ushka]

What if they removed the 3difrent variants stuff to upgrade the skills, and make the skills 3x more expesif exp 3000xp skill becomes 9000xp, this way you still need to earn as many XP as you would lvl 3difrent mech but you can do it with a mech you like...

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Newbie's observations:

1. This game is not p2w. Not unless you consider grind avoidance a p2w factor.

2. New players will most often have terrible experience with the grind and economy.

You cannot consider starting an alt account as a basis for knowing the current new player experience. You know what to do. You know how to earn money. You have skills to earn money. This is not the same a being a newbie and struggling with basic UI features (which is notably bad for a computer game).

Moreover, most people here are BT fans or at least fans of a certain mmo pvp game type. I hada rather easy time adjusting, because I played WoT for about a year some time ago. I play lights for now, and WoT lights and MWO lights here are not that much different. Quite a number of principles is similar. Thus even I shouldn't pose an example for a new player experience. Consider somebody that has little/no experience in BT/WoT.

Remeber that new players make mistakes. It is very easy to waste you cadet bonus and not even realised that you wasted it. And then waste the money hardly earned after the cadet bonus for quite some time. Imagine buying the wrong engine for 3-5 mil (not misclicking, but buying a too slow XL for the light mech, or buying an XL for an atlas.) Imagine buying your fist mech, investing all your money in it, and then coming to a conclusion that you don't like it at all or reading that this mech sucks. Imagine saving for a ferro-fibrous armor just to buy it and later wonder why the space for those guns you wanted to buy after that are filled now. All that having no good mech whatsoever, no experience in the game, slightest hint about weapon usefullness, and earning half what you earn now.


Yeah, you CAN use trials for longer, but who wants to play not their mechs? Of course everybody wants to make and play their own machines.
-----
So yeah, good tutorials, less vague UI, a free starter mech or newbie cbill bonus lasting longer. Or the other way around? A large discount for your first 2 mechs and for your first two engines.

[DrSlamastika]

This thread is untrue.

You can earn easily about 200 000 - 300 000 C-bills per game. Its not that bad . . .

We all was new one time, and it was hard. But now its sweet easy game

Edited by DrSlamastika, 15 April 2015 - 02:57 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

DrSlamastika, on 15 April 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

This thread untrue.

You can earn about easily 200 000 - 300 000 C-bills per game. Its not that bad . . .

We all was new ones, and it was hard. But now its sweet easy game

Yeah, right, with premium and being an experienced player with mechs he likes and know how to handle.

As I said, I personally didn't have THAT much trouble with starting. But a know a newbie who ended up in a horrible newbie loop: Bought the mech that is demanding (jenner), bought wrong engine for it later, bought and installed weapons far from optimal. Now this person has no money, still no experience in the game to earn proper money, and an underperforming mech.

TBH, I helped making that jenner. Terrible mistake. I wonder if I would be playing this game if I wasn't lucky with my first pick, when I bought a mech because I liked how it looked. Only thing that saved me was about a year of playing lights in WoT some time in the past.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 15 April 2015 - 02:46 AM.

[sycocys]

Honestly if you develop skill in the game - totally F2P doesn't really isn't that bad.

Should you be unlocking anything/everything with a couple hours of poor playing? No, not unless you want to pay for the convenience of not learning how to play or invest the time into earning the unlocks.

I've earned all 80/88 of my mechs through playing and the other 8 are heroes I purchased for flavor because honestly most all of them aren't even comparable to the c-bill variants.

99% of my time was not on premium. At launch I started with was was the cheapest mech to purchase and outfit - the Commando series - and fully mastered them all within the first week, then kept right on playing as them and earning plenty of c-bills to buy and upgrade the next mechs.

[crustydog]

I spend very little on this game, or any game, for that matter.

I've been here six and a half months, I have a fine collection of mechs, and a good pile of C-Bills in my account.

It was not easy to get here, I'll give you that. However, now that I am here, I am fairly satisfied with my achievements, I feel I am in a good place with this game, and I am still having fun every day and am not bored, or burned out, or angry.

My game continues to improve every month... it remains challenging and entertaining, even after all of this time. That is more important than many might realize. If the game was easy, I would have mastered it and moved on long ago. The game is not easy. Doing well here requires skill, practice and patience... and the reason I feel so good about the place I am now in is precisely because I know just what I had to do to get here.

As for pay to win... I have no problems with a system that introduces new stuff first on a pay only basis. Over time, most mechs are transferred to the C-Bill purchase list anyways. If it keeps the servers running and the coders coding, who am I to complain about it? There are no aspects to this game that winning is available only to those who pay, unlike some of the other F2P titles out there.... and good on PGI for that!

In my time here I have observed that PGI does indeed pay very close attention to the rewards that the players are earning. While I agree with Bishop that basic earnings are perhaps a little too tight, it is very much possible to grow a substantial game presence on the fremium side of the equation.