76 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 16 April 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Also applicable...70 ton mech size.

That's PGI working with the assumption that the entire human should fit inside the window, rather than the window + the space around it.

Grasshoppers are meant to be tall but they're supposed to be pretty thin, too. That part didn't happen, the damn thing is almost as tall as the Banshee.


They put the Jenner at about 10 meters at the fin. Seems about right and where it would be even without the pelvis if the legs were attached to the sides like its supposed to be. They're even depicted as bigger than that on occasion but not by much.

The Catapult, it's clear Alex was scaling it for about 8 to 10 meters, because a Catapult without the pelvis akin to the original squat design is roughly that. The stilted version quite a bit taller.


Regular.


Regular. - Fanart, but in comparison.


Regular, I don't know if this is fanart or not.

Stilted.


Stilted -- and is that a Zaku (from gundam series) underneath it?



Stilted.

Comparison to other mechs.
Orion, 1987


Shadowhawk, 1987


Wolverine, 1987

This seems more orthogonal than perspective.

And comparison to real size. The wheel is 9 meters tall.

This tank is supposed to be 10.2 meters (33 ft. 6 in.) long.


Catapult between 8 and 10 meters seems about right considering the proportions. But PGI said they wanted it to be 15 meters, and to adjust the scale on its parts. (The long body and other features are where its weight went as opposed to being vertically tall, but PGI failed to see this at the time.)

I wonder if perhaps the Grasshopper might have been an attempt to fix that?

Whatever the case thank god they go with the assumption the pilot has to fit in the cockpit window with the Mist Lynx since they absolutely refuse to fix the convergence and high alphas... but then again, this is a bit ridiculous.

There was a reason Lynx is scaled as rather large in BT. >.>


But that also gives a good reason as to why pilots were centered in the heads of Commandos.
The Commando is, measured in 3DSMax, 9.7 meters tall.

The established BT scale of the first Omnimechs. Note anything with Endo Steel is larger than those without, as Endo Steel increases the size of the machine (as does ferro, any mech without is a fair bit 'thinner' and 'smaller' even if it has more armor than something nearby).

Edited by Koniving, 16 April 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Soy]

Commando [obsolete]
Vindicator [what is this]
Highlander [once a long time ago..........]
Mist Lynx [******* cAP]
Awesome/Quickdraw/Treb [wat]

ps - Summoner [honorable mention but been quirked on recently so]

Edited by Soy, 16 April 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

CapperDeluxe, on 16 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

I think some people are forgetting that float jets, not quirks or geometry, are the reason for these mechs sucking so hard. If jump jets ever become what they should be then I think we can see where they are.

I'm working off the assumption that PGI is not going to un-nerf JJs.

[One Medic Army]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Far as where the rounding went.. Tabletop/Sarna/Battletech/Fasa did the rounding. Creates a bit of diversity and play, so you could say in theory that some might accelerate slower or faster or go a little more or slightly less than 5*30 meters without having to say it went "4.7*30 meters and in 3 turns it'll need to lose 1 hex".

The speeds Sarna lists uses the speed equation that assumes all mechs have identical acceleration and speed for their hex movement per 10 seconds.

PGI made the engine to output ratio a strictly linear path.

The real issue is if you follow Sarna/TT speeds exactly, it brings up some issues. For one if you had 2 mechs of the same tonnage, but one was a 5/8 in TT, and the other was a 4/6 or 6/9, the one that wasn't rounded would go slower with the same sized engine, or the scaling of speed per engine rating wouldn't be linear at all. I, for one, prefer linear rating to speed, as a +5 in rating yields the same speed boost no matter if you're going from 200 to 205 or 350 to 355, it'd just be one more area of unnecessary complexity to trip up newbies.

[Deathlike]

Mist Lynxes are at the top of my list...

Mist Lynx (worst mech in game)
Vindicator (worst Medium)
Awesome (worst Assault)
Orion (generally irrelevant for its tonnage)
Highlander (Hoverjets™)

I'm sure my 5th can be rotated with other mechs (Commando is somewhat surpassed by the Lolcust), but that is the list.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 April 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Revamped to do what exactly? Over quirking poorly designed(for MWO) mechs will make them OP. It depends on what you are comparing them to I guess. The Atlas is perfecting fine, typically its teammates not supporting it. Other Assaults are utterly useless except for the DWF and Stalker(due to being a well designed mech for MWO).

You can look at each weight class and find mechs that need "revamped'. IMO there are way too mechs and variants that are simply useless. That is a balancing concern but I dont think PGI gives a rats ass about balancing chassis vs chassis over weapon vs weapon.

Edited by mogs01gt, 16 April 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Koniving]

One Medic Army, on 16 April 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

The real issue is if you follow Sarna/TT speeds exactly, it brings up some issues. For one if you had 2 mechs of the same tonnage, but one was a 5/8 in TT, and the other was a 4/6 or 6/9, the one that wasn't rounded would go slower with the same sized engine, or the scaling of speed per engine rating wouldn't be linear at all. I, for one, prefer linear rating to speed, as a +5 in rating yields the same speed boost no matter if you're going from 200 to 205 or 350 to 355, it'd just be one more area of unnecessary complexity to trip up newbies.

You'd hardly notice or even encounter this issue, if, we didn't have increases of "5" for every single mech. There's no reason for it, no precedent for it, and even in the lore they barely knew how to make the things anymore. For many companies the factories just run and pump them out so long as they can keep up the materials.


Under what condition would they have any kind of market for so many variations of engine? Especially when the engines manufactured for one mech are meant to be almost wholly incompatible with another. (There were some exceptions, but in general a 300 engine for a 35 ton mech is a `Vastly` different price than one for a 300 engine for a 100 ton mech even if the engines weigh the same. More interestingly is an XL 300 for a 35 ton mech is a little over 5 million. An XL 300 for a 100 ton mech, despite having the same VLAR manufacturer, is 12 million new and on Megamek a used XL 300 engine for a 100 ton mech is still over 8 million.)

There would actually be a larger market (due to profit) in dinosaur hunting.

You might think I'm joking, but I'm not. At least they know how to hunt and kill dinosaurs. For the most part they rely on the factories to put together engines and have enough knowledge to attempt botched repair jobs and regular maintenance. To have so many variations, many of which weigh exactly the same for a "5" 'power' rating difference.. it opens a lot and I mean a lot of exploitation which MWO is plagued with.

Edited by Koniving, 16 April 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Ralmer]

Tarogato, on 16 April 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Who rounded wrong, Sarna, or PGI?

FASA, in 1984, when the robots were still called "Droids".

[One Medic Army]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

You'd hardly notice or even encounter this issue, if, we didn't have increases of "5" for every single mech. There's no reason for it, no precedent for it, and even in the lore they barely knew how to make the things anymore. For many companies the factories just run and pump them out so long as they can keep up the materials.


Under what condition would they have any kind of market for so many variations of engine? Especially when the engines manufactured for one mech are meant to be almost wholly incompatible with another. (There were some exceptions, but in general a 300 engine for a 35 ton mech is a `Vastly` different price than one for a 300 ton mech even if the engines weigh the same. More interestingly is an XL 300 for a 35 ton mech is a little over 5 million. An XL 300 for a 100 ton mech, despite having the same VLAR manufacturer, is 12 million new and on Megamek a used XL 300 engine for a 100 ton mech is still over 8 million.)

There would actually be a larger market (due to profit) in dinosaur hunting.

You might think I'm joking, but I'm not. At least they know how to hunt and kill dinosaurs. For the most part they rely on the factories to put together engines and have enough knowledge to attempt botched repair jobs and regular maintenance. To have so many variations, many of which weigh exactly the same for a "5" 'power' rating difference.. it opens a lot and I mean a lot of exploitation which MWO is plagued with.

Personally I just chalk up the speed differences to rounding, and conversion between a tabletop turn-based strategy game and a online real-time FPS-sim.

I see no need to make changes to the basic speed-engine-tonnage equation just to make some numbers in an old book match up exactly.

[Fuggles]

dragons: one over-quirked variant, rest are garbage, absolute garbage. no where even close to the clan heavy options.

highlanders: tons of quirks to try to make them less sluggish but the root of the problem is hardpoints and JJs. amazingly ineffective in combat.

victors: they are fine to me, but lack quirks, so are at a dissadvantage

commandos: nuff said

kintaros: one of the least played chassis by far.

in no particular order

[Mirumoto Izanami]

I want to hunt dinosaurs in my mechs.

[topgun505]

I agree with Medic. The roving CT on legs that is the Jenner needs a pass. Compensate by increasing side torso size slightly.

[R0B0TULISM]

1453 R, on 16 April 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Your list is mildly incorrect. Allow me to offer advice on the proper top 5 'Mechs in need of reworks.

1.) Quickdraw
2.) Quickdraw
3.) Quickdraw
4.) Quickdraw
5.) Mist Lynx

In lieu of the complete model rework the thing truly deserves, we can start by switching the Quickdraw to the Medium movement archetype, the same way the Gargles and Victor got knocked down a size to emphasize their mobility. A 'Mech with old-days hardpoint counts that is very nearly Awesome-level fat possessed of what amounts to medium-weight armor...come on, Piranha. What did the poor thing ever do to you guys? Did a Quickdraw go on a TAC tear in a tabletop game you guys ran back before you introduced it?

Unfortunately, nothing will fix the quickdraw short of a rescaling pass, or giving it back the old class III JJ's. Quirks just can't fix it's problems.

I remember when it could F**king fly, you could jump over a hill at 105 kph, empty an alpha or two into an enemy mech, and then jump back over another hill before they could respond. I mean, it wasn't even particularly good as a hit and run striker even back then, but at least it had a semi-viable role.

Now, it is just an atlas-sized death trap that can barely jump out of a valley in canyon network.

[Soy]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Mechasaur

afk playin Turok on N64 this week

[Mike Forst]

1453 R, on 16 April 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Your list is mildly incorrect. Allow me to offer advice on the proper top 5 'Mechs in need of reworks. 1.) Quickdraw 2.) Quickdraw 3.) Quickdraw 4.) Quickdraw 5.) Mist Lynx In lieu of the complete model rework the thing truly deserves, we can start by switching the Quickdraw to the Medium movement archetype, the same way the Gargles and Victor got knocked down a size to emphasize their mobility. A 'Mech with old-days hardpoint counts that is very nearly Awesome-level fat possessed of what amounts to medium-weight armor...come on, Piranha. What did the poor thing ever do to you guys? Did a Quickdraw go on a TAC tear in a tabletop game you guys ran back before you introduced it?

It keeps coming up and I'll keep repeating it: movement archetypes affect two things: hill climbing and the mech's world collision model (that determines what spaces it fits in). They don't affect mobility in any other way. The Gargoyle and Victor still have the Huge movement archetype and have hill climb overrides applied to make them climb like the Large archetype. The King Crab still has the Large archetype with a hill climb override to make it climb like the Huge archetype.

This change you're asking for will not do what you think it does.

[Ultimax]

Mike Forst, on 16 April 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

It keeps coming up and I'll keep repeating it: movement archetypes affect two things: hill climbing and the mech's world collision model (that determines what spaces it fits in). They don't affect mobility in any other way. The Gargoyle and Victor still have the Huge movement archetype and have hill climb overrides applied to make them climb like the Large archetype. The King Crab still has the Large archetype with a hill climb override to make it climb like the Huge archetype.

This change you're asking for will not do what you think it does.

This needs to be a sticky, please.

[Postumus]

1. Highlander
2. Victor
3. Shadowhawk
4. Orion
5. Stalker (all the Stalkers without -4N in their name)

Other possible contenders are all of the non-AH Centurions, most of the Battlemasters, and about 75% of the IS Resistance lineup need a revamp on release.

Of course, when I say revamp, I mostly mean "need not garbage quirks". It's interesting to note that all of the mechs on my list except the Orion were, at one point, very good. That was before Jumpjet and PPC nerfs, Gauss charge, heat scale, and quirks. As in, the meta in which they dominated is long, long gone. Also, the Highlander and the Shadowhawk are getting double stuffed because of their jumpjets knocking a tier of their quirks. And we all know how awesome jumpjets are right now. Especially the Highlander's Class 1 2-ton not-even-quite-hover jets.

Edit:

Forgot the Atlas. My first mech, the Founder's Atlas, has been collecting dust since 2013 or so. The S and D-DC are minimally viable, but the Atlai overall are too big, too slow, not maneuverable enough, and don't balance any of those bads with either good hardpoints (all waist level and below, not enough of them) or with exceptional quirks.

Edited by Postumus, 16 April 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

Awesomes.... The only thing the Awesome needs is Zeus-level armor quirks and it's good to go, despite the hitboxes.

Probably likewise for Atlas, perhaps in addition to increased torso twist and pitch range.

[InspectorG]

FAIL THREAD

No one mentioned the Nova...

Nova
Gargles
Cicada( X5 only...give more tubes plz)
Summoner( ST pods with E plz)
Ice Ferret(is ugly)

[TwentyOne]

Atlas needs the most help IMO. It needs to be the toughest mech in existence. Thats its thing, and in this game all that happens is I get shot to **** and die 3 times faster than a king crab. I want my favorite mech to be fun to play, and have a personality.