76 replies to this topic

[Mirumoto Izanami]

InspectorG, on 16 April 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

FAIL THREAD

No one mentioned the Nova...

Nova
Gargles
Cicada( X5 only...give more tubes plz)
Summoner( ST pods with E plz)
Ice Ferret(is ugly)

Because the Nova is far from the least effective or most stricken mech in the game.

[bad arcade kitty]

cicada has ecm, would pick over nova any day

>Ice Ferret(is ugly)

a serious drawback. ferrets are supposed to be pretty



especially when his original art looks rather impressively

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 16 April 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[InspectorG]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 16 April 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Because the Nova is far from the least effective or most stricken mech in the game.

No mech as hitboxes as gimped. Look at the structure quirks that try to compensate.

No other mech shoots the ground as much either.

Only the Jenner has a more vulnerable CT.

Scale is way off for a 50 ton.

Its saving grace: Clan engine and weapons. Thats all. JJ? Well it has to expose over 50% of its height just to clear its cover.

[Fuggles]

the nova has been accurately desribed as "the perfect storm of suck"

its too bad, it was such a mean brawler when it came out.

[Burktross]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I read the subject as "Top 5 mech chassis that need a revamped body" for some reason.

Where's that mech playboy community spotlight when you need it?

[Koniving]

Fuggles, on 16 April 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

the nova has been accurately desribed as "the perfect storm of suck"

its too bad, it was such a mean brawler when it came out.

The only thing that changed here was small and medium ER lasers were given 1 extra unit of heat (while the ER LL was not).

Of interesting note: This was done to match a similar nerf on the IS side, where all IS regular lasers smaller than large class lasers have 1 extra unit of heat.

Covered in the "Where Clan balancing went wrong."
Many quirks that make medium lasers good on the mechs... simply remove roughly 1 heat from the medium lasers.

ML, source heat: 3. MWO heat: 4
SL, source heat: 1. MWO heat: 2
ER ML, source heat: 4, MWO heat: 5
ER SL, source heat: 2, MWO heat: 3.
LL, source heat: 8. MWO heat: 7
ER LL, source heat 12, MWO heat 8 IS, 9 Clan. Source damage: IS 8 and Clan 9. MWO damage: IS 9 and Clan 11.
Fun, isn't it?

Sometimes it makes you want to just sit there and ask "What the --"

With that though is it any wonder that MWO's balance so typically favors anything in the heavy category or higher?
Big weapons = better weapons in such a bad way.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

The only thing that changed here was small and medium ER lasers were given 1 extra unit of heat (while the ER LL was not).

Of interesting note: This was done to match a similar nerf on the IS side, where all IS regular lasers smaller than large class lasers have 1 extra unit of heat.

Covered in the "Where Clan balancing went wrong."
Many quirks that make medium lasers good on the mechs... simply remove roughly 1 heat from the medium lasers.

ML, source heat: 3. MWO heat: 4
SL, source heat: 1. MWO heat: 2
ER ML, source heat: 4, MWO heat: 5
ER SL, source heat: 2, MWO heat: 3.
LL, source heat: 8. MWO heat: 7
ER LL, source heat 12, MWO heat 8 IS, 9 Clan. Source damage: IS 8 and Clan 9. MWO damage: IS 9 and Clan 11.
Fun, isn't it?

Sometimes it makes you want to just sit there and ask "What the --"

With that though is it any wonder that MWO's balance so typically favors anything in the heavy category or higher?
Big weapons = better weapons in such a bad way.

To be fair, Inner Sphere Larges, ER Larges, and Large Pulses were simply trash in Tabletop. They needed to be buffed to be viable. Even with the damage and heat buffs the IS LL still isn't a very good weapon.

But yes, the IS ML and SL would be better at their original heat values.


The Clan ERML however was simply overpowered as hell in Tabletop. It was literally just a version of the IS Large Laser that weighed 1 ton instead of 5 tons, with basically the same range and damage, and a lot less heat. Try to justify that. Just try.

The choice was either to nerf the CERML or buff the living hell out of the IS ML and LL. Well, MWO both buffed the IS LL and nerfed the CERML, and yet the CERML still completely poops all over it.

Edited by FupDup, 16 April 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[1453 R]

Mike Forst, on 16 April 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

It keeps coming up and I'll keep repeating it: movement archetypes affect two things: hill climbing and the mech's world collision model (that determines what spaces it fits in). They don't affect mobility in any other way. The Gargoyle and Victor still have the Huge movement archetype and have hill climb overrides applied to make them climb like the Large archetype. The King Crab still has the Large archetype with a hill climb override to make it climb like the Huge archetype.

This change you're asking for will not do what you think it does.

Ah, my apologies. I was unclear. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us, though!

To clarify, I believe that a hill climb override is exactly what should happen for the Quickdraw (well, that and a complete model rework, but one of those things is actually possible and the other is...less so). The 'Mech is canonically an agile guerrilla fighter which even has TT rulebook quirks expanding its agility due to its unusual actuator construction. The fact that the machine climbs hills no more effectively than a STALKER is outrageous.

The fact that the Quickdraw is the size of a Banshee is enormously disadvantageous in this game. As well, the 60-ton weight bracket is itself one of the most disadvantaged places to be in the entire MWO weight spectrum, especially for an agility-focused 'Mech such as this - your jump jets suddenly cost twice the tonnage, you're in the 50% heavy queue so you can't get games in less than twenty minutes, you need twenty more points of engine rating minimum (on average) to get to the same speed as a 55-ton 'Mech...and yet you have only five extra tons over the 55-ton overlords with which to pay for the bigger engine and twice-as-heavy jump jets you need just to keep up with the mediums. You get an absolute minimum of additional armor protection, which also costs you part of those five extra tons which kick you over all kinds of nasty thresholds, and not all that much extra structure, either. By the time a Quickdraw finishes compensating for all the things it needs to throw weight at just to keep up with a Shadow Hawk, it has less tonnage for armament and combat equipment than a Shadow Hawk does.

And then there's this:

The Quickdraw's TRO art has narrow, almost blade-like legs and a fairly slender frame It's stocky, yes, but it's a narrow stocky (which makes sense if you think about it hard enough! ), without a great deal of space between its shoulders. The whole 'Mech is relatively narrow, with its torso weapons packed close to its centerline and not a lot of space beyond those weapons.

And then...



What happened? This thing is bigger than half the game's assault 'Mechs. It keeps the boxing-glove forearms the TRO art had, but now it's also broad as all hell and its legs are enormous. People didn't start calling it the Quicklegged on a lark. I understand that it was given some reasonably hefty armor/structure quirks to try and make up for the fact that it's ludicrously, outrageously oversized, but the Quickdraw isn't supposed to be a durable slugger. That's the Thunderbolt's job. This thing is supposed to be quick and maneuverable - as much so as a sixty-ton 'Mech can be, anyways. I mean come on. It says right here, in its Sarna page:

Sarna.net Quickdraw article said:

The second were its highly-articulate ankle actuators, which not only allowed the Quickdraw keep its footing more easily on difficult terrain such as gravel, mud and ice, but also traverse gradients up to 12° steeper than other 'Mechs of its weight class.

The 'Mech comes canonically equipped with a hill climb override. It is designed specifically in the original TT lore to be able to climb steeper hills than other machines. If any 'Mech in the game deserves a hill climb override it's the Quickdraw.

C'mon, Piranha. This poor thing needs all the help it can get. A hill climb override to Medium archetype might not make it magically a T1 chassis...but it would sure as shootin' make it feel a whole lot more like a Quickdraw.

Edited by 1453 R, 16 April 2015 - 06:45 PM.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 16 April 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

The choice was either to nerf the CERML or buff the living hell out of the IS ML and LL. Well, MWO both buffed the IS LL and nerfed the CERML, and yet the CERML still completely poops all over it.

They also buffed the Clan ER LL, nerfed the living hell out of the IS ML...
and accomplished nothing.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 16 April 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

They also buffed the Clan ER LL, nerfed the living hell out of the IS ML...
and accomplished nothing.

Hey, I already said that the IS ML would be better at its older heat value...

The Clan ERLL got buffed because the circumstances that made it stronger in TT don't always apply here (i.e. we have beam duration to spread damage, our mechs need more heatsinks, etc.). I'd be okay with nudging the damage back down to 10 (current is 11) but I think the heat is fine (12 heat would be too much for the gun in this game).

Edited by FupDup, 16 April 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Kiiyor]

1453 R, on 16 April 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Your list is mildly incorrect. Allow me to offer advice on the proper top 5 'Mechs in need of reworks.

1.) Quickdraw
2.) Quickdraw
3.) Quickdraw
4.) Quickdraw
5.) Mist Lynx

In lieu of the complete model rework the thing truly deserves, we can start by switching the Quickdraw to the Medium movement archetype, the same way the Gargles and Victor got knocked down a size to emphasize their mobility. A 'Mech with old-days hardpoint counts that is very nearly Awesome-level fat possessed of what amounts to medium-weight armor...come on, Piranha. What did the poor thing ever do to you guys? Did a Quickdraw go on a TAC tear in a tabletop game you guys ran back before you introduced it?

The poor Awesome left out again. The fat, useless, sniveling, un-athletic, glass jawed, slack jawed kid is always picked last.

[Deathlike]

Kiiyor, on 16 April 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

The poor Awesome left out again. The fat, useless, sniveling, un-athletic, glass jawed, slack jawed kid is always picked last.

Well, I have it listed as #3... surely I can move it to #2.

Mist Lynx is still far worse than the Awesome.. and only used because of tonnage and the terrible trial mechs.

[cSand]

hey hands off the qkd

that's my boy!!

[Frostiken]

1453 R, on 16 April 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

What happened? This thing is bigger than half the game's assault 'Mechs. It keeps the boxing-glove forearms the TRO art had, but now it's also broad as all hell and its legs are enormous. People didn't start calling it the Quicklegged on a lark. I understand that it was given some reasonably hefty armor/structure quirks to try and make up for the fact that it's ludicrously, outrageously oversized, but the Quickdraw isn't supposed to be a durable slugger. That's the Thunderbolt's job. This thing is supposed to be quick and maneuverable - as much so as a sixty-ton 'Mech can be, anyways. I mean come on. It says right here, in its Sarna page:

That's almost as bad as this:



... becoming THIS:

[Sandersson Jankins]

My ludicrous QKD-4H with 2MPL 2ML and 3SRM6 with an 89KPG XL engine and 2JJ works very well.

If it wasn't such a hilariously large mech for its tonnage, it would be downright amazing.

Fund it!

[Corrado]

CTF-4X? no way.. with 4 AC5 and quirks is really good already. (for an IS mech)

[One Medic Army]

Corrado, on 16 April 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

CTF-4X? no way.. with 4 AC5 and quirks is really good already. (for an IS mech)

Dragon and Wolverine are better is more the issue. For less tonnage.