217 replies to this topic

[Fate 6]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Less than a quarter need be exposed (closer to 20%, really, and that's IF you don't use cover to hide the Right side of the mech, then closer to 10 maybe 15%). Exaggeration does your argument no favors.

You literally expose no more, and often less, than those evil STK-4Ns (since they are usually not able to Sword and Board and must both sides of the mech for full effect, but can snipe well right side/left side if the pilot is patient).

It's probably the hyperbole and hysteria on this and the XL post that cause me to have to argue so strongly against you on them, Gyrok.

^exactly. It'll be the Clan Stalker

As to people saying the 53% means nothing, for every clanner running the trinity there's an IS pilot with 4N, 2x, S, 6k, 9S, 5SS. It evens out.

Edited by Fate 6, 21 April 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[jlawsl]

I am amazed no one has mentioned the direwolf CT that will have 2 energy points with one in the head. Kinda scary when that is 3 CERLLs or 3 CERLPLs or even 3 CERMLs. It has as good, if not better damage potential in its center torso and head then the new Highlander energywise. Gone are the days of blowing off a ST and it loosing a good amount of firepower. Not to mention the stormcrow that has the more energy potential damage in one arm then most IS energy heavies and assaults. The nova gets this, but it isn't even nearly as good.

With all of these energy omnipods, they are drawing clan into the corner of laser death with some gauss thrown in and some lrms for the heck of it. Why bother with anything else when you can just stack tons of cersls on a mech with tons to spare? Ah well, guess we will see. Most of the other variants OTHER then the top three are bleh. The direwolf, timberwolf and stormcrow models coming out have some pretty decent omnipods.

[Mcgral18]

jlawsl, on 21 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I am amazed no one has mentioned the direwolf CT that will have 2 energy points with one in the head. Kinda scary when that is 3 CERLLs or 3 CERLPLs or even 3 CERMLs. It has as good, if not better damage potential in its center torso and head then the new Highlander energywise. Gone are the days of blowing off a ST and it loosing a good amount of firepower. Not to mention the stormcrow that has the more energy potential damage in one arm then most IS energy heavies and assaults. The nova gets this, but it isn't even nearly as good.

It's not as useful as the others. Same height as the Gauss, higher than the lowest arm lasers.



There's the maximum of 16 weapons equipped, so it can't make use of all of them.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 April 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Deathlike]

I think the Stormcrow variant being sold will be far more problematic for PGI to sell... just on the heat gen quirk alone.

The best players will certainly use this variant to trading damage... because they are capable of trading better than the average player.

The people who argue against this really stink at trading, thus the commentary you are seeing here.

[Lightfoot]

Fate 6, on 20 April 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

They did check. In the last event Clans won 53% of games. Clan mechs are currently still better in CW. Buffing the Timber Wolf or Storm Crow won't balance the game. If you want buffs to Clan mechs then go fight for something that actually needs help (Summoner, Badder, etc)

I am. It's the part where I say make the Clan weapons conform to TT values if you are specially nerfing the few good Clan mechs.

And if you meet a team in CW that's using only the over-buffed FotM Inner Sphere mechs they win easily vs. Clan anything. The Inner Sphere weapons are basically better in duration and heat modifiers and then buffed out to the same ranges with better recycles and speed on the SPECIAL Mechs. It's just a giant fubar of Battle Tech with no balance across the different chassis.

So a start would be to even the durations of the Clan weapons with the Inner Sphere. That would make the Skill of using the weapon equal. That includes Autocannons. So the burst would need to be extremely short. Except for the Dire Wolf Autocannons are very restricting for Clan mechs with such low payload abilities.

PGI has just really over-reacted to balancing Clan tech. Multiple nerfs with no rhyme or reason to it from one mech to the next. No balance in Clan Mechlab, No balance in Autocannons at all, Inner Sphere is the only faction with access to working ACs. Unfathomable since Clan versions are only 1 to 2 tons lighter than Inner Sphere, but Clan mech payloads are 3 to 10 tons lower on average, except for the Dire-Wolf. So ACs/UACs should be identical in function between Clan and Inner Sphere.

Anyway, when pro's use the FotM Inner Sphere they are the best, much better than Clan. New players or recent players don't get it yet. It takes awhile to learn Mechlab and how it can enable Mech performance, although some of the I.S quirked mechs are easy enough to figure out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lightfoot, on 21 April 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

I am. It's the part where I say make the Clan weapons conform to TT values if you are specially nerfing the few good Clan mechs.

And if you meet a team in CW that's using only the over-buffed FotM Inner Sphere mechs they win easily vs. Clan anything. The Inner Sphere weapons are basically better in duration and heat modifiers and then buffed out to the same ranges with better recycles and speed on the SPECIAL Mechs. It's just a giant fubar of Battle Tech with no balance across the different chassis.

So a start would be to even the durations of the Clan weapons with the Inner Sphere. That would make the Skill of using the weapon equal. That includes Autocannons. So the burst would need to be extremely short. Except for the Dire Wolf Autocannons are very restricting for Clan mechs with such low payload abilities.

PGI has just really over-reacted to balancing Clan tech. Multiple nerfs with no rhyme or reason to it from one mech to the next. No balance in Clan Mechlab, No balance in Autocannons at all, Inner Sphere is the only faction with access to working ACs. Unfathomable since Clan versions are only 1 to 2 tons lighter than Inner Sphere, but Clan mech payloads are 3 to 10 tons lower on average, except for the Dire-Wolf. So ACs/UACs should be identical in function between Clan and Inner Sphere.

Anyway, when pro's use the FotM Inner Sphere they are the best, much better than Clan. New players or recent players don't get it yet. It takes awhile to learn Mechlab and how it can enable Mech performance, although some of the I.S quirked mechs are easy enough to figure out.

Pros don't use IS mechs save for lights. They use Stormcrows, Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves. I'm sure they just do that because they want to play at a disadvantage...

[H I A S]

Oh, look, a Gyrokthread...

[C E Dwyer]

I see this is another very mature thread, and how old is the average age of a MWO player 30-35-40 ?

[Mystere]

Fate 6, on 21 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

As to people saying the 53% means nothing, for every clanner running the trinity there's an IS pilot with 4N, 2x, S, 6k, 9S, 5SS. It evens out.

Again:

• anecdote <> fact
  
• guess <> fact
  
• hypothesis <> fact

plus:

• Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination. - Vin Scully
  
• There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. - Benjamin Disraeli
  
• Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain

[Fate 6]

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Again:

• anecdote &lt;&gt; fact
  
• guess &lt;&gt; fact
  
• hypothesis &lt;&gt; fact

plus:

• Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination. - Vin Scully
  
• There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. - Benjamin Disraeli
  
• Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain

And you claiming that most Clan players drop in the trinity is the exact same thing.

[Mystere]

Fate 6, on 21 April 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

And you claiming that most Clan players drop in the trinity is the exact same thing.

That is not what I said:

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

But, if you also take into account the allegation that the vast majority of Clan players only bring nothing but the Holy Trinity ...

[Widowmaker1981]

Fate 6, on 21 April 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

And you claiming that most Clan players drop in the trinity is the exact same thing.

They do (assuming by trinity you mean TBR/SCR/HBR for CW, no uses whales really) - but thats not so much because the Scrow and Timber are hugely OP, its more because everything lighter than the Crow is currently terrible, so you can't take anything heavier either. Making a CW dropdeck without using anything lighter than a Crow leaves you with fairly few options.. bring on Wave 3.

The Timber and Crow are very good - only the Thunderbolt (5SS) competes with the Timber on its level (the Timber is a little better, but not much. about 10 tons worth id say..). Its more a problem of the Orion being the only 75 ton IS heavy and it being decidedly non meta with its low slung, diverse hardpoints.

[John80sk]

I get the feeling that this torso will still be broken. If anything it should also have a heat penalty.

PGI Logic:
Timberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow are OP.
Therefor, we nerf all the clan weapons.
Timberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow still OP.
Therefor, we nerf all clan engines.
Timberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow still OP.
Lets give the Timberwolf, Direwolf and Stormcrow better hardpoints.

Anything that might benefit the Trinity at this point should be put on hold. The only responsible thing to do is to refund any sales made, and stop adding new hardpoints for these mechs until the current variants are properly balanced... of course, I am aware that this is not going to happen.

[WarHippy]

Fate 6, on 20 April 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

They did check. In the last event Clans won 53% of games. Clan mechs are currently still better in CW. Buffing the Timber Wolf or Storm Crow won't balance the game. If you want buffs to Clan mechs then go fight for something that actually needs help (Summoner, Badder, etc)

I mostly don't care about the topic at hand beyond finding it silly to nerf something before it is even available a little on the silly side, but I have seen this 53% thing brought up a few times and it is pretty stupid. 53% is pretty damn even given we don't know much about the make up of said teams, the skill gaps in said teams, or really anything that might account for that extremely slight difference. It is the same nonsense that was brought up last time they did a Clan vs IS test and the Clans won something like 64% of the time and had on average 100 more Elo, which based on Elo ratings a 100 Elo advantage works out to be a 64% chance to win. Shocking I know, but balance is a great deal closer than most are willing to admit on either side.

[Fate 6]

WarHippy, on 21 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I mostly don't care about the topic at hand beyond finding it silly to nerf something before it is even available a little on the silly side, but I have seen this 53% thing brought up a few times and it is pretty stupid. 53% is pretty damn even given we don't know much about the make up of said teams, the skill gaps in said teams, or really anything that might account for that extremely slight difference. It is the same nonsense that was brought up last time they did a Clan vs IS test and the Clans won something like 64% of the time and had on average 100 more Elo, which based on Elo ratings a 100 Elo advantage works out to be a 64% chance to win. Shocking I know, but balance is a great deal closer than most are willing to admit on either side.

Oh I fully agree that 53 is very good. That's why giving the Timber this pod with negative quirks is good.

[Ultimax]

WarHippy, on 21 April 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

I mostly don't care about the topic at hand beyond finding it silly to nerf something before it is even available a little on the silly side, but I have seen this 53% thing brought up a few times and it is pretty stupid. 53% is pretty damn even given we don't know much about the make up of said teams, the skill gaps in said teams, or really anything that might account for that extremely slight difference. It is the same nonsense that was brought up last time they did a Clan vs IS test and the Clans won something like 64% of the time and had on average 100 more Elo, which based on Elo ratings a 100 Elo advantage works out to be a 64% chance to win. Shocking I know, but balance is a great deal closer than most are willing to admit on either side.

53% winrate isn't close when that 53% winrate was earned while having a tonnage handicap.

It makes it close for CW with CW's rule set - but means the gap in other queues are still very large.


There are other factors that are hard to quantify as well.

For example, while most IS trials are not optimized builds they are at least champion builds with an attempt at an MWO build.

Unlike clan trials that are pure stock, some of which have horrifically bad armor allocation and loadouts.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 April 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[WarHippy]

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Why soil perfectly good sheets with filthy money?

Lets be honest. If she is rolling around naked on your sheets with or without money they are going to get dirty in one fashion or another after other activities...

[Jonathan Paine]

Timbergod gets a pod that makes it even more versatile, and Gyrok starts crying. Nothing to see here, move on.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 21 April 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

I think the Stormcrow variant being sold will be far more problematic for PGI to sell... just on the heat gen quirk alone.

The best players will certainly use this variant to trading damage... because they are capable of trading better than the average player.

The people who argue against this really stink at trading, thus the commentary you are seeing here.

Honestly, my biggest complaint is that they even bothered with much in the way of negative quirks because of the outcry on MWO forums.

You still have to expose half the mech to shoot, since the cockpit on the TW is in the center of the chest...these hardpoints are not going to change much, if anything, for that chassis.

Besides, it is not like people are going to mount CERPPCs in there, since those are terrible, and the CERLL with the long burn duration will be a joke...so...hill peeking with the A LT was dead before quirks...now it will just be more dead.

There was a lot of hype by people looking specifically at the location of the hardpoints only, not taking into consideration that with the cockpit being so low on the mech, you really gain very little if anything out of it.

Jonathan Paine, on 21 April 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Timbergod gets a pod that makes it even more versatile, and Gyrok starts crying. Nothing to see here, move on.

Ignorant twit stops by to say hello, nothing to see here, move on...

[Sandersson Jankins]

Negative quirks were unneeded. As a CW-only FRR-only player, I won't be using them. But it'll be just a bit easier to slag 'em, and I don't like that very much.

Assuming all mechs in a CW match are "meta" mechs, IS has a slight edge for advantage, imo.

Assuming all mechs are "average" mechs or mechs people simply like, clans have a slight advantage.

Not sure how a matchup of all crap-mechs would be. Never seen it.