282 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Look. I've been concerned that Quirks were being overdone for a while. Being used as stopgaps and bandaids for deeper issues. If the Thud was so bad it needed 50% cooling on ERPPCs to "compete" (it didn't), then it bespeaks of much larger underlying issues.

Yet more and more, Mechs aren't being "helped" by Quirks, but defined by them. and it's not "1 quirk per tier" anymore, but crazy stuff like the Zeus's armor....or literally doubling the armor on the arms of the Nova-C. (The Locust and Mist Lynx are pretty crazy too, IMO, in those regards)

At no point should a mech need a 40-50% boost to ANYTHING to make it "viable". The LB-X on the CN9-D sort of does, one could say...but does it? Or does the LB-X need to simply not SUCK as a weapon? Does the LCT-1V really need that kind of cooldown on it's ERLL? Or the DRG-1N?

Or are they lazy bandages covering over bigger problems, like poorly implemented and balanced weapons, and chassis that are poorly thought out, balanced and victims of atrocious scaling issues?

And this isn't because the Clan Mechs are finally getting decent Quirks in some instances. In the current environment, they NEED them, in most cases not named StormCrow or TimberWolf. And most still need MORE, in the current environment.

But what we got is a Quirks Arms Race going on, where they are not only being used as cure alls, for whatever ails a design, but are starting to define the Metas in and of themselves. Quirks were supposed to be a "boost" to give underperformers a shot. 10% here, 20, even 25% on the truly bad mechs, here and there, I could see and agree with.

But it's really gone too far. Quirks are going form a potential saviour of underperforming mechs to making the game unrecognizable as "A Battletech Game".

I think it's really time to stop and really look at just how nuts the quickening has gotten. And to start over with them yet again. And maybe, it's time to hold a little more Dev accountability to actually provide minimally viable products on the in game models and weapons balance.

I still enjoy this game, but with each new list of quirks released, I recognize the game less and less. Truth be told, I am actually almost missing the "Time Before Quirks", even though many of my favorite chassis were all but DoA then.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 April 2015 - 10:46 PM.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

stuff

Hear hear. It is time for PGI to man up and address some core issues regarding mechs, equipments, and weapons, instead of applying layers of band-aid over multiple fractures. And come up with something other than Ghost Heat.

El Bandito, on 15 April 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

What this game needs is LRM/LBX/MG/Flamer/AC2 that does not suck. Just by making those weapons useful, PGI will increase weapon diversity by 1/4.

A non-sucking Flamer, for example, can be a great advantage against Clan laser-vomit mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 April 2015 - 10:28 PM.

[TheArisen]

Yeah, more then a few mechs have pretty crazy quirks. Personally, I like it this way to an extent, gives mechs&variants flavor. It's just gotten perhaps a bit too big a thing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Know what else packs 64 armor in it's arms...or 40 Structure in it's Legs? A bloody Banshee. A 50 ton mech (Nova) has structure or armor matching a 95 ton Assault mech. Heck it has the CT and ST structure of a 70 tonner. And then weapon quirks on top.

[627]

yeah, power creep is too much, quirks are a bit overdone.

We have the situation that people aren't looking for a mech but its quirks.

Quirks should be passive perks, things to strengthen the mech. Armor quirks, speed/agility buffs and so on are all fine. But the whole bunch of weapon quirks need a buff.

As I see it, quirks have replaced general weapon balancing. It seems that everyone is fine with all the weapons and quirks are the way to balance those. But that is wrong, the weapon should be balanced first.

Prime example is the ER-PPC, nearly no one uses the weapon when the mech has no quirks for it. But weapons should ALL be viable without quirks. And if that is achieved, we can talk about minor quirks to buff some variants.

I'm aware that "balance to the force" is a dream you can only chase but we had times without quirks where nearly all weapons were in use. Ok not all, Flamers are trash since closed beta and the MG is... nah let us not start with that, makes me sad.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Know what else packs 64 armor in it's arms...or 40 Structure in it's Legs? A bloody Banshee. A 50 ton mech (Nova) has structure or armor matching a 95 ton Assault mech. Heck it has the CT and ST structure of a 70 tonner. And then weapon quirks on top.

Still better to over buff thee armor than ridiculous cooldown or heat quirks imho.

[Knight Magus]

PGI is the KING of layer fixes that don't actually fix the real problem.

Edited by Knight Magus, 20 April 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[One Medic Army]

I'd actually be much happier if they went with more generic quirks, mobility quirks, really anything other than weapon specific stuff.

The goals/steps I'd like to see for quirk balancing:

First to bring chassis with bad hitboxes up to acceptable levels either through toughening their problem sections (more armor/structure for the barn door), or mobility quirks to let them trade more effectively and avoid return fire in the first place (locust acceleration).

Second I'd like to see general quirks to make under-utilized hard points worth using. Like if a mech gets a single ballistic, but doesn't really have the tonnage for an AC/20 or Gauss. Ballistic generic boosts, so that a single AC/5 or UAC/5 is worth taking, or sacrificing for an AC/20 or Gauss becomes more appealing. Note I said generic, so the quirk makes more builds valid, but doesn't push people into one specific build.

Third I'd like to see the freaking weapons balanced some. MGs, AC/2s, LBX, clan ACs, and PPC/ERPPCs specifically. When a weapon is only worth using if it gets a 30% reduction in heat, just reduce the weapon's heat by 30% for everyone.

Fourth, for chassis that are just too good based on hitboxes, hardpoints, etc even in an unquirked state: give them some minor quirks that specifically target what they're too good at. (for instance, I do not necessarily agree with the following) Stalkers peek too well? Give them a beam duration increase maybe, or an accel/decel penalty to hinder poking. Direwolf ballistic spams too well? Give them a ballisitc velocity penalty (on the relevant pods). Something that doesn't invalidate the option, but just makes it harder.

Fifth: now you can start looking at weapon/weapon group specific quirks. I'd prefer spread, velocity, range stuff rather than cooldown and heat reduction.

Sixth: If you want to combat boating, add divided quirks. For instance 20% extra range, divided amongst relevant weapons. A single one gets 20% range, 2 get 10% range each, 4 get 5% range each.

Edited by One Medic Army, 20 April 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[Serpieri]

People called it - that Quirks would become a problem and not a solution. PGI needs to fix the core issues and learn to KEEP IT SIMPLE but I'm sure PGI will introduce a new mechanic called traits to balance the quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Serpieri, on 20 April 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

People called it - that Quirks would become a problem and not a solution. PGI needs to fix the core issues and learn to KEEP IT SIMPLE but I'm sure PGI will introduce a new mechanic called traits to balance the quirks.

Ghost Quirks?

Oh wait, sorry, that is rather common sounding, let's call it "Viability Scaling" instead?

[HellJumper]

Till the time they cannot understand what the problem is with their own game they cannot fix it.. hence we see these quirks....

worry not...more shall come...

[meteorol]

Bring the few outliners back in line. Reduce quirks. Increase TTK.

[Tarogato]

I've been bringing this up for a while now, but I feel like it's a request that asks too much to ever get any real traction with the devs.

• When you have weapon systems that are only being used when they are equipped to mechs with 25%+ quirks, then there's something wrong with the weapon system. (PPCs and ER PPCs much?)

• When the only way some mechs are played is by boating the overquirked weapon system, then there's something wrong with the quirks. (if you put anything other than seven medium pulses on your TDR-5SS, you're wrong! Bahahaha!)

The bar was set by the best performing chassis. The introduction of quirks was supposed to bring the underperforming chassis and variants up to that same bar, not surpass it. We've surpassed it by a longshot and it's high time we take a step back. An Example I like to use is the Firestarters. The Ember and the JR7-F were the king of light mechs before quirks. You'd expect that quirks were supposed to make the FS9-A, FS9-S, FS9-H, JR7-K, etc... all perform on the same level as the Ember and JR7-F. What do we have today? The Ember and JR7-F are underpowered and outclassed! The same can be applied to the Thunderbolts. Thunderbolts were one of the more mediocre options in the heavy class. Now they invalidate all the other IS heavies in almost all applications. (oh, and then there's the Dragon 1N. The other Dragons might as well not even exist any more. )

Edited by Tarogato, 20 April 2015 - 11:03 PM.

[Xetelian]

Disagree.

Would anyone play a Dragon 1N if it didn't have quirks? No.

[Ralgas]

As usual got what we wanted, just not how we wanted it.

you cant ague it doesn't give "defined roles", right down to the variant level. An across the board drop may go a ways to fixing it, but that wont stop us gaming apex of effectiveness mechs.

I don't like it, but i'll run with it. The 3v blew me away tbh. Add endo, dhs, ff, a erllas ct and a std 170 and you have near king of the bugs...... just under 1.1km range (with module), in a light that can zombie @ 150km/h (speed tweak) and has spare room for 2 dhs and most if not all of it's quirked extra armor

Edited by Ralgas, 20 April 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[STEF_]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Look. I've been concerned that Quirks were being overdone for a while. Being used as stopgaps and bandaids for deeper issues. If the Thud was so bad it needed 50% cooling on ERPPCs to "compete" (it didn't), then it bespeaks of much larger underlying issues.

Yet more and more, Mechs aren't being "helped" by Quirks, but defined by them. and it's not "1 quirk per tier" anymore, but crazy stuff like the Zeus's armor....or literally doubling the armor on the arms of the Nova-C. (The Locust and Mist Lynx are pretty crazy too, IMO, in those regards)

At no point should a mech need a 40-50% boost to ANYTHING to make it "viable". The LB-X on the CN9-D sort of does, one could say...but does it? Or does the LB-X need to simply not SUCK as a weapon? Does the LCT-1V really need that kind of cooldown on it's ERLL? Or the DRG-1N?

Or are they lazy bandages covering over bigger problems, like poorly implemented and balanced weapons, and chassis that are poorly thought out, balanced and victims of atrocious scaling issues?

And this isn't because the Clan Mechs are finally getting decent Quirks in some instances. In the current environment, they NEED them, in most cases not named StormCrow or TimberWolf. And most still need MORE, in the current environment.

But what we got is a Quirks Arms Race going on, where they are not only being used as cure alls, for whatever ails a design, but are starting to define the Metas in and of themselves. Quirks were supposed to be a "boost" to give underperformers a shot. 10% here, 20, even 25% on the truly bad mechs, here and there, I could see and agree with.

But it's really gone too far. Quirks are going form a potential saviour of underperforming mechs to making the game unrecognizable as "A Battletech Game".

I think it's really time to stop and really look at just how nuts the quickening has gotten. And to start over with them yet again. And maybe, it's time to hold a little more Dev accountability to actually provide minimally viable products on the in game models and weapons balance.

I still enjoy this game, but with each new list of quirks released, I recognize the game less and less. Truth be told, I am actually almost missing the "Time Before Quirks", even though many of my favorite chassis were all but DoA then.

Well you know.... we had PGI Jesus box because PGI could not figured out how to rework properly LRM, and there were too many noobs being lurmed to death
And Jesus Box has been a game breaker, since with it we have a no brainer FPS, imo.

So, bout quirks, PGI is going on to follow its philosophy about a no brainer FPS: since months I go on saying that locusts are op, for instance, and every time I drop with it I have at least 500 dmg and 2-3 k.
Is this normal?
I mean: can this happening in a normal BT game?

"But it's really gone too far. Quirks are going form a potential saviour of underperforming mechs to making the game unrecognizable as "A Battletech Game"."
Not only quirks, Bishop.... Rules have been broken. (ghost heat, instant convergence/pinpoint damage... and so on)

PGi did too much steps away from canon BT, because they want a no brainer, accessible to all.

That's why, from an initial optimism due to IGP disappeared, I returning to ...my island: the game is not improving at all, but yes, we can have pleanty of new mechs.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 20 April 2015 - 11:21 PM.

[STEF_]

Xetelian, on 20 April 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:

Disagree.

Would anyone play a Dragon 1N if it didn't have quirks? No.

And why, in your opinion.
I don't like Dragon for its creapy CT hitbox, for instance.
So, logic would suggest to fix....hitboxes.

[627]

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 April 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

And why, in your opinion.
I don't like Dragon for its creapy CT hitbox, for instance.
So, logic would suggest to fix....hitboxes.

Dragon is a good example for overuse of quirks. It was and is a bad mech, we can all agree on that. With quirks there was a chance to buff the chassis into a new role, be it with extra speed or armor or agility or all together.

We could even add some hardpoints, I mean why is that off the table? In closed beta hardpoints where switched all day, why not use this as balancing? (Yeah I know, dynamic geometry is hard but the dragon doesn't have it yet).

I bet if you get a speed quirk for the dragon of another 10-15% you'd see more of those mechs. No power creep and still a good alternative to a 65 tonner.

[Pjwned]

I've been saying this for a little bit now actually. At first I was pretty satisfied with the quirks if only because they were new, even though I still thought that 50% cooldown quirks like on the DRG-1N were pretty insane, but now after things have kind of settled in I'm not very happy with how quirks are handled in a lot of cases; I will say that quirks have still been rather helpful and brought some needed variety to mechs though.

Some mechs have it right and simply have some small weapon quirks to help out a bit, maybe an armor quirk here or a torso twist quirk there as well, but other mechs have completely ridiculous weapon quirks so potent that you might as well pick the weapon to determine your mech rather than picking your mech to determine the weapon, e.g TDR-9S (formerly) and now STK-4N as well as others. There should be a lot less focus on absurd weapon quirks and more focus on other aspects like movement, or when weapon quirks are applied they shouldn't be so heavy handed.

I think a mech like the CN9-AH (and similarly, the HBK-4G) is a good example of quirks pretty much done right with some armor for its arms and a couple quirks for its 2 weapon systems, and that most mechs shouldn't really go much beyond those sorts of quirks, but with the way things are now there's dozens of mechs that go way past that level and for some mechs there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it either.

[XX Sulla XX]

Since people do not like nerfs better chance or armor and ammo boost to lower time to kill. Then more quirks to balance lowest mechs

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 21 April 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[kesmai]

What? Balance?
It is just a failure to balance IS vs. Clans without any thought of balancing IS vs. IS or Clan vs. Clan. PGI remInds of a used car salesman that rather uses new paint than getting rid of the rust to sell a car.