70 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

[El Bandito]

Have a like.

Shame PGI wont implement such solution cause it is too simple and effective.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2015 - 06:39 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

Because a Mech under a ECM umbrella is not impervious to LRM fire. Well of course, unless you are totally "dependent" on "others" to get your missile Locks for you.

What do you tell the Pilot who took the time and care to get his TAG laser on a target and get missiles to it? Sorry but you simply have to eat this BS 50% spread thing, because of Whines, even though he/she did exactly what was needed to negate the enemy Mechs ECM cover under the current rule set of MWO?

Stop carrying LRM's without the means to negate ECM ffs. Problem solved.

Edited by Almond Brown, 23 April 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

Dude! Just WOW

Seriously great idea!

[MechWarrior3671771]

Yup. People need to remember than an ECM nerf will also marginalize all the counters to ECM.

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Because a Mech under a ECM umbrella is not impervious to LRM fire. Well of course, unless you are totally "dependent" on "others" to get your missile Locks for you.

What do you tell the Pilot who took the time and care to get his TAG laser on a target and get missiles to it? Sorry but you simply have to eat this BS 50% spread thing, because of Whines, even though he/she did exactly what was needed to negate the enemy Mechs ECM cover under the current rule set of MWO?

In that situation TAG will cancel ECM, making all missiles launched towards the target have no spread penalty. I see no problem here.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2015 - 08:03 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Because a Mech under a ECM umbrella is not impervious to LRM fire. Well of course, unless you are totally "dependent" on "others" to get your missile Locks for you.

What do you tell the Pilot who took the time and care to get his TAG laser on a target and get missiles to it? Sorry but you simply have to eat this BS 50% spread thing, because of Whines, even though he/she did exactly what was needed to negate the enemy Mechs ECM cover under the current rule set of MWO?

Stop carrying LRM's without the means to negate ECM ffs. Problem solved.

LOL, I don't even use lrms exept I play my MDD for the fun of spamming lrm 30's in 6 packs of 5.

The issue is that lrm is a dysfunctional implemention of what it is in TT and does heavily imbalance many stuff in MW, this starts from choosing emchs with ecm oer those not having some. To the fact that a MM with many ecm on one side and many lrm on the other is just going to fail by randomness of MM.

But the solution to make ecm what it was, a counter to missiles, and not a cloak bubble, that would just be great and balance a lot stuff. Lrm's would suddenly not be useless vs a lrm mech at 800 m, because show me how epically ou tag him hidden behind his comrades with that lousy tag range. Or that amazing narc launcher.

LRM's are considered the most annoying OP'ness by noobs and the most pointless wepaon system by good players. Simply because how unreliable they are due to, terrain, positioning and ecm.

giving ecm a "nerf" to lrm's without obsoleting the entire weapon system may make them not totally worthless in the eyes of good players, and newbies can still use their lrms to some degree without being totally useless once they face any ecm protected mech..Especially when they may have chosen the trial CPLT A 1.

And when you have tag and narc or bap? it des what it already does, negate the ecm effect. so the spread then is normal again. So where is the problem there?

LRM's are a problem, because together wiht how ecm works they are both in conjunction a totally unbalanced and broken feature. And thats why many skileld pilots don't use lrm's and hardly truly care about ecm. But an entire weaponsystem in such a state is not how it should be.

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

In that situation TAG will cancel ECM, making all missiles launched towards the target have no spread penalty. I see no problem here.

So what would be the point of either ECM, or LRM's for that matter, if one does not provide protection, or causes a spread pattern so wide that <10% of all missiles, might hit the intended target? LRM's already suck remember.

Some players still know what to do when the "incoming missiles" warning signal sounds.

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

So what would be the point of either ECM, or LRM's for that matter, if one does not provide protection, or causes a spread pattern so wide that <10% of all missiles, might hit the intended target? LRM's already suck remember.

Some players still know what to do when the "incoming missiles" warning signal sounds.

1. Some. Others, not so fortunate.

2. At least it is not a hard counter. Especially on launchers with 5 or 10 size. ECM will deny accuracy, TAG will restore it. They both will function.

3. LRMs do suck but that is partly due to current ECM--which needs reworking. OP's proposal is much better than what we have now.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2015 - 09:38 AM.

[Lily from animove]

We could change the entire way how tag, narc bap and ecm work.

ecm
will not provide hidden doritos and the non-lockability anymore
will not cause the "low signal" indicator anymore

will increase lock time by 25%
will incrase missile spread by 50%

tag:
will negate ecm effect when ecm is on a target mech
otherwise:.
will decrease locktime by 25%
will decerase missile spread by 20%
20% of the lrm damage will additionally be provided as damage for the one using the tag on the scoreboard. (this way tagging for yourself, and tagging for others does actively score for the tagger on the board)

narc:
the same as tag, just with the narc mechanics (maybe make them stack with each other)

bap:
negates ecm.

@almond, I doubt less than 10% missiles will then hit the target. Only if the mech is a light and the missile is a bigger one like lrm 20 or lrm 15. Yet they will not all hit the same location anyome on bigger mechs as a tighther spread does. A reason why i se the 6 lrm 5 MDD form time to time is that lrm 5's are a lot tighter than lets say 2 lrm 20. this makes "sniping" CT's and penetrating AMS much easier with the clan stream mechanics. Lrm boats can make a load of damage, but often very inefficient one because of th spread. tagging will then be a big benefit even if the opponent does not bring any ecm. And so the teamwork for both for both the tagger and the one shooting the tag has a bigger impact than the currently "just faster locktime".

Also that way, the risk of takign a tag and going into line of sight battles for lrm mechs is more proficient then than the current hide beind and spam missile tactics. because you know there is a real benefit for using a tagger.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 April 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Apnu]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Stop carrying LRM's without the means to negate ECM ffs. Problem solved.

^^^ This.

If I'm packing LRMs, I'm also taking TAG and/or BAP and/or Artemis, or the LRMs are some little harassment thing because I had extra tonnage and I don't care.

But its also for that reason I wonder why people whine about LRMs so much.
Ok, those players who hang back 700-800m from the target with no LOS and say 'locks please!', those guys are tools.

But LRMs themselves? They're the most penalized IS weapon system in the game!

They have spread issues, and need tech (or quirks now) to close that up at the expense of tonnage.

ECM. Most games see ECM deployed on multiple mechs. If you're really going to run LRMs you have to take TAG and use it often. The MM doesn't consider ECM balance when it makes its matches, so its not unusual to see one side with 3 ECM and the other 0. If the LRM is facing 3 ECM its going to be a tough match for them, no matter how much TAG and BAP they're packing.

Missile locks. Lock on time, target decay, lock loss in mid flight... ugh. Need BAP and modules to improve that. More non-damage enducing tonnage used plus a lot of c-bills in modules.

Ammo dependence. (Shared with ballistics and other missile systems)

Minimum range. Get in under 190 and you're ineffective. Have to pack backup weapons in case that happens, eating up more tonnage that can be used for other things like more ammo. And those weapons you aren't going to use much unless something gets in your face, but as a LRM boat, you goal is to not directly brawl with the enemy. So its half-wasted tonnage, it will save your bacon tho, from time to time, but from a pure min-max perspective, its a waste.

Slowest travel time of any weapon. Only the flamer and machine gun with a speed of 100 is slower than the LRM 160 speed.

Intervening terrain. Sure you can shoot over some stuff, but it depends on the angle the shooter is to the terrain object, or the angle of flight to the target and terrain in between.

Spread damage. LRMs rarely go where you want them to when you do get a hit. Also not all the missiles will hit, some can pass between mech parts (legs, arms, some torso shapes) and hit the dirt.

AMS. The one counter system in the game specifically designed against LRMs. No other weapon system suffers this. And every mech can take AMS, and every mech that has AMS protects all mechs in the AMS' range.

Low DPS compared to other weapons. AC10, DPS of 4.00, SRM6, DPS of 3.23. LRM10, DPS of 2.67. PPC, DPS of 2.50

LRMs can be powerful in the right hands and to break 500+ damage you need intelligence, patience and skill. But you also have to pack 3, 4, 5, tons of other things to overcome the LRM penalties. That's a lot of counters on top of the counters all weapon systems have in the game (cover, target movement, heat, LOS).

Yes LRMs are a noob weapon, but those noobs send a lot of missiles in the dirt, more than 3/4 I think. But like the autoshotty in CS, in the hands of an expert, they are a weapon to be feared.

[Apnu]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

We could change the entire way how tag, narc bap and ecm work.

ecm
will not provide hidden doritos and the non-lockability anymore
will not cause the "low signal" indicator anymore

will increase lock time by 25%
will incrase missile spread by 50%

tag:
will negate ecm effect when ecm is on a target mech
otherwise:.
will decrease locktime by 25%
will decerase missile spread by 20%
20% of the lrm damage will additionally be provided as damage for the one using the tag on the scoreboard. (this way tagging for yourself, and tagging for others does actively score for the tagger on the board)

narc:
the same as tag, just with the narc mechanics (maybe make them stack with each other)

bap:
negates ecm.

@almond, I doubt less than 10% missiles will then hit the target. Only if the mech is a light and the missile is a bigger one like lrm 20 or lrm 15. Yet they will not all hit the same location anyome on bigger mechs as a tighther spread does. A reason why i se the 6 lrm 5 MDD form time to time is that lrm 5's are a lot tighter than lets say 2 lrm 20. this makes "sniping" CT's and penetrating AMS much easier with the clan stream mechanics. Lrm boats can make a load of damage, but often very inefficient one because of th spread. tagging will then be a big benefit even if the opponent does not bring any ecm. And so the teamwork for both for both the tagger and the one shooting the tag has a bigger impact than the currently "just faster locktime".

Also that way, the risk of takign a tag and going into line of sight battles for lrm mechs is more proficient then than the current hide beind and spam missile tactics. because ou know there is a real benefit for using a tagger.

I think ECM is one of the few things that should be more TT based. On the table top, ECM does not mess up targeting. If an LRM mech can see it, they can try to hit it. If someone else can see it, the LRM can try indirect fire, but at a penalty. ECM negates special tech like TAG, Artemis and so on.

Instead, ECM removes all target info and target detection, which punishes lock-on weapon systems, but not direct fire weapon systems unfairly. ECM is essentially a nerf for missiles and nerfs the scouting role. Its backwards.

I really see no reason why we must have a Fog of War in MWO. In the fluff if a mech was "on" every other mech knew where it was. Of course if we had that there'd be no real need for scouts, but again, ECM, is the magic box that wrecks that, huge part of, role warfare.

[Mercules]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

3. LRMs do suck but that is partly due to current ECM--which needs reworking. OP's proposal is much better than what we have now.

Wrong. LRMs suck because in a face to face battle the person launching LRMs is almost cored from direct fire before his first missile hits. LRMs suck because the counter to them is to break lock which is incredible easy to do.


ECM is awesome because IT HIDES YOU. The LRM protection is just bonus.


If everyone brought AMS it would completely shut down LRMs from the enemy team. Notice no one brings AMS but lots of people bring ECM... it isn't because of LRMs it's because ECM HIDES YOU.

[Fate 6]

This idea is great. I never use LRMs for obvious reasons but I want to be able to use them because they are just cool to use. Watching missiles fly is fun, and they do look pretty great in this game. It would be cool to be able to have LRMs without boating.

[Almond Brown]

Mercules, on 23 April 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Wrong. LRMs suck because in a face to face battle the person launching LRMs is almost cored from direct fire before his first missile hits. LRMs suck because the counter to them is to break lock which is incredible easy to do.

ECM is awesome because IT HIDES YOU. The LRM protection is just bonus.

If everyone brought AMS it would completely shut down LRMs from the enemy team. Notice no one brings AMS but lots of people bring ECM... it isn't because of LRMs it's because ECM HIDES YOU.

Quote

Given the technology level of the Succession Wars era, it isn't surprising that this equipment was heavier and bulkier than the systems that inspired it. Interestingly, it could operate in either an offensive or defensive capability: It could seek targets like a Beagle Active Probe, or hide the unit mounting it like a Guardian.

[Mercules]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

*Stuff*

Is this where I point out I never said it shouldn't hide the unit, just that this is why it is awesome. BTW, also from Sarna

Quote

Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.[4]

[Almond Brown]

Mercules, on 23 April 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Is this where I point out I never said it shouldn't hide the unit, just that this is why it is awesome. BTW, also from Sarna

I thought MWO had Angel ECM? Did we get a downgrade?

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Messing with missile spread is a problematic balance path anyway. I have a comprehensive rework for ECM, other electronics, and LRMs, that'd be both lore-friendly and easy to balance in an ongoing fashion.

1 - ECM changes to the following: 180m AoE. Any mech inside the Aoe (friend or enemy), and any mech targeting a mech inside the AoE, suffers the following: +50% lock-on times, +100% target info times, -50% tracking speed for guided weapons.

2 - BAP changes to the following: 180m AoE. The mech can detect any other mech within that radius and within LoS, even if the mech is powered down. Within half radius (90m), it can detect any mech even if it is outside of LoS. ECM does not interact with BAP.

3 - TAG changes to the following: -30% lock-on times, +30% tracking speed for guided weapons.

4 - Artemis IV changes to the following: -60% lock-on times (LRMs only, LoS only), +10% missile velocity, -10% spread (SRMs only).

5 - NARC changes to the following: -60% lock-on times, +60% tracking speed for guided weapons.

6 - Command Console changes to the following: +25% zoom, -50% target info time, -50% lock-on times. Any other friendly mech that targets the same mech as the CC mech gains an instant lock of the CC mech has a lock already, and instant target info if the CC mech has target info already.

7 - LRMs remain the same in most ways, but their targeting is reworked along the lines of the SSRM system. Each launcher fires groups of 5 LRMs that will target a "bone" together (LRM5s do 1 group, 10s to 2 groups, 15s do 3 groups, and 20s do 4 groups). Indirect fire does not use this system, instead generating a "saturation" pattern where the missiles spread out over a wide area (small launchers would be terrible for indirect fire, then).

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 23 April 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[Lugin]

Almond Brown, on 23 April 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

I thought MWO had Angel ECM? Did we get a downgrade?

Nah, we've got (enhanced) Angel with (no-bulk/no-heat) stealth armor masquerading as Guardian/Clan ECM.

Edited by Lugin, 23 April 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

LOL, I don't even use lrms exept I play my MDD for the fun of spamming lrm 30's in 6 packs of 5.

The issue is that lrm is a dysfunctional implemention of what it is in TT and does heavily imbalance many stuff in MW, this starts from choosing emchs with ecm oer those not having some. To the fact that a MM with many ecm on one side and many lrm on the other is just going to fail by randomness of MM.

But the solution to make ecm what it was, a counter to missiles, and not a cloak bubble, that would just be great and balance a lot stuff. Lrm's would suddenly not be useless vs a lrm mech at 800 m, because show me how epically ou tag him hidden behind his comrades with that lousy tag range. Or that amazing narc launcher.

LRM's are considered the most annoying OP'ness by noobs and the most pointless wepaon system by good players. Simply because how unreliable they are due to, terrain, positioning and ecm.

giving ecm a "nerf" to lrm's without obsoleting the entire weapon system may make them not totally worthless in the eyes of good players, and newbies can still use their lrms to some degree without being totally useless once they face any ecm protected mech..Especially when they may have chosen the trial CPLT A 1.

And when you have tag and narc or bap? it des what it already does, negate the ecm effect. so the spread then is normal again. So where is the problem there?

LRM's are a problem, because together wiht how ecm works they are both in conjunction a totally unbalanced and broken feature. And thats why many skileld pilots don't use lrm's and hardly truly care about ecm. But an entire weaponsystem in such a state is not how it should be.

Way too much misinformation here. LRM's are effective, especially if you focus on it's suppression qualities instead of being a "mech killer". PGI has already tried letting LRM's be more effective resulting in the lurmapocalypses of 2013 &'14. This mistake probably won't be repeated.

Please read this to use them effectively Lrm Boat - Help

There are some decent ideas here but making LRM's deadlier isn't the answer. I would add that maybe they consider some modules for ECM and TAG.
-module to negate Low Signal
-module to give TAG a Target Decay effect. Scaled a bit to how long the TAG is held so it's not a use it and immediately duck, that might be too powerful

...and other considerations here.