70 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Romeo Deluxe, on 23 April 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Way too much misinformation here. LRM's are effective, especially if you focus on it's suppression qualities instead of being a "mech killer". PGI has already tried letting LRM's be more effective resulting in the lurmapocalypses of 2013 &'14. This mistake probably won't be repeated.

Please read this to use them effectively Lrm Boat - Help

There are some decent ideas here but making LRM's deadlier isn't the answer. I would add that maybe they consider some modules for ECM and TAG.
-module to negate Low Signal
-module to give TAG a Target Decay effect. Scaled a bit to how long the TAG is held so it's not a use it and immediately duck, that might be too powerful

...and other considerations here.

Thats why nearly any high rank player is always brining those evil lrm's all day.
LRM's are dead weapons, because they are bad, unreliable and too easy to counter even without ECM, ecm makes them just pointless. They are only deadly vs people who really make the most basic positioing mistakes. and their supression value is not even big, because you usually anyways ALWAYS stay close to cover.

surpression quality? its low, because you pop out, you shoot, lrm warning, and you are in cover before anythign impacts., it often hardly matters if one fired his lrm or not, you would anyways be hidden again already.

And those ideas do not make lrm's deadlier, they make them just not as useless if ecm is around, which for the few poor souls still using lrm is just matchup lottery how useful they will be.

[Stoned Prophet]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

Why cant you just handle ecm as it is? Its really really REALLY easy to play against...

[Mystere]

Stoned Prophet, on 23 April 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Why cant you just handle ecm as it is? Its really really REALLY easy to play against...

Translation: Use Mark 1 eyeballs, see enemy mech, shoot and kill enemy mech.
Alternate 1: Use Mark 1 eyeballs, see suspected enemy ECM mech, shoot and kill enemy ECM mech.

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

Do real-life electronic countermeasure systems spread enemy fire? Or do they blind enemy radar, or make enemy radar see things that are not there?

[mark v92]

Nice thinking there

It used to work well. You would see 1 or 2 ecm on the field per team.
Now a lot of mechs can carry it. Disable 1 ecm mech and 3 others are still covering it.

Besides you suggestion i would go for no dorito for the ecm carrier, for the team around him no target info and slow locks only.

Anyway signed.

[Sorbic]

Mercules, on 23 April 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Wrong. LRMs suck because in a face to face battle the person launching LRMs is almost cored from direct fire before his first missile hits. LRMs suck because the counter to them is to break lock which is incredible easy to do.


ECM is awesome because IT HIDES YOU. The LRM protection is just bonus.


If everyone brought AMS it would completely shut down LRMs from the enemy team. Notice no one brings AMS but lots of people bring ECM... it isn't because of LRMs it's because ECM HIDES YOU.

El Bandito's statement is more accurate, and you'll notice he says it's part of why LRMs can suck. Definitely better than a blanket "this is how it is" statement. Plus if you're F2F battling a DF mech you're doing it wrong.

Your AMS reasoning is a big reason why you won't see many LRMs in comp large group play, because if it ever became a thing they can PLAN how to negate it and so ECM's it's real benefit becomes hiding folks. Of course your statement falls flat everywhere else where you can't rely on others to bring AMS or ECM. Plus there the fact that the current ECM glut does lead to less folks bringing AMS but even so there are generally more mechs with AMS than ECM.

[Stoned Prophet]

mark v92, on 23 April 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

Nice thinking there

It used to work well. You would see 1 or 2 ecm on the field per team.
Now a lot of mechs can carry it. Disable 1 ecm mech and 3 others are still covering it.

Besides you suggestion i would go for no dorito for the ecm carrier, for the team around him no target info and slow locks only.

Anyway signed.

This is the ONLY reasonable suggestion ive ever heard in this regard. But it stills shows people NEED those doritos for some reason I just dont understand.

[Mercules]

Sorbic, on 23 April 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Plus if you're F2F battling a DF mech you're doing it wrong.

Which is not how LRMs are supposed to work. ECM isn't even supposed to affect LRM locks... so....

[Nothing Whatsoever]

All I can think of is:

Edited by Praetor Knight, 23 April 2015 - 08:13 PM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

Thats why nearly any high rank player is always brining those evil lrm's all day.
LRM's are dead weapons, because they are bad, unreliable and too easy to counter even without ECM, ecm makes them just pointless. They are only deadly vs people who really make the most basic positioing mistakes. and their supression value is not even big, because you usually anyways ALWAYS stay close to cover.

surpression quality? its low, because you pop out, you shoot, lrm warning, and you are in cover before anythign impacts., it often hardly matters if one fired his lrm or not, you would anyways be hidden again already.

And those ideas do not make lrm's deadlier, they make them just not as useless if ecm is around, which for the few poor souls still using lrm is just matchup lottery how useful they will be.

You didn't read through the link and I stand by my statements. LRM's are not the best weapon, they are hardly a dead weapon system. Especially in the solo queue. Myself as well as probably 98% of the players will never play in a competitive tournament, so that part of the argument only applies to 2% (and probably less) of the players.

Presently I won't even contemplate bringing them into CW. However, CW and it's maps & modes will change then who knows.

I have lead charges many times in my CN9A, keeping several opponents behind cover as we charged them. I have knocked 4 opponents back behind a ridge while teammates closed in on them. Then kept a couple others behind a corner while teammates cleaned out those 4. I rarely even bother with indirect fire unless I'm helping a teammate locked in a duel and I know by a quick glance at the map that the duel is occurring in the open. Those slow ass missiles are way faster than my mech.

A sniper is even easier to deal with unless they are a particularly good sniper. The LRM's won't miss but the sniper will if you keep moving. I use this rocking back and forth at varying lengths to make them miss more than hit me. Long range duels can be fun. Main point is there are ways to make use of this weapon system.

Mess around with it some time, you might like it.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 23 April 2015 - 08:11 PM.

[El Bandito]

Romeo Deluxe, on 23 April 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

A sniper is even easier to deal with unless they are a particularly good sniper. The LRM's won't miss but the sniper will if you keep moving. I use this rocking back and forth at varying lengths to make them miss more than hit me. Long range duels can be fun. Main point is there are ways to make use of this weapon system.

Unless the sniper is out in the open, LRM boat is never going to out duel it. By the time you manage to lock onto him with Lurms, he will shoot his load in your face and duck back into cover, and you will be cussing about how cheap Radar Derp module is. Also, ERLL snipers are not gonna miss.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 April 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

can we stop quirking ****** is mechs

[Navy Sixes]

Romeo Deluxe, on 23 April 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

PGI has already tried letting LRM's be more effective resulting in the lurmapocalypses of 2013 &'14.

'13 is before my time, but I've heard stories. Not sure what this "Lurmapocalypse of '14" is all about, unless of course you're talking about the week-or-so that PGI upped the LRM's speed by a fraction, hoping to make them less likely to cause the enemy to laugh at you until they wet themselves, and a lot of meta players got zerged while derping (ZWD) through open terrain without AMS. Anyway, rather than adapt their playstyle to allow for a new threat on the battlefield, Russ' Twitter-buds threw tantrums until PGI broke down and fixed their wittle game for them.

Is that the "lurmapocalypse of '14" of which you speak?

Also, great idea OP!

[Kenyon Burguess]

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

because missile spread modifiers leaving the launcher is easy to code, but arriving on target thru XX ecm bubbles is impossible to code.

[Navy Sixes]

Geist Null, on 23 April 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

because missile spread modifiers leaving the launcher is easy to code, but arriving on target thru XX ecm bubbles is impossible to code.

Artemis registers a locked target as LOS before the missiles leave the tubes and tightens the salvo's spread. Registering a locked target as ECM-protected before the missiles leave the tubes and loosening the salvo's spread runs on the same principle and is at least possible.

Edited for clarity

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 23 April 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[Novakaine]

Pfft Noob this.
This what a good missle boat brings to the table.
I just don't understand all the hate.
But haters gonna hate.

[Y E O N N E]

I dunno, Novakaine, that looks like you got carried pretty hard and had a lucky series of last-hits. Have a better example?

Tycho von Gagern, on 23 April 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

I dunno. Since you need a lock on the ECM-bubbled mech to fire on them before they leave the launcher, impossible may be hyperbole.

But you don't need a lock to fire on something in an ECM bubble. LRMs have a dumb-fire mode, and I've seen it used to great effect.

And that's what I don't like about this idea. You'll have to code in behavior that stops the missiles from spreading inside an ECM bubble when dumb-fired. So that's two additional flags to check for over how they currently work, increasing the complexity.

Besides, scattering missiles doesn't make sense. ECM usually works by just preventing a target lock in the first place.

[Romeo Deluxe]

I gave you a Like Novokaine, but those end reports don't tell the whole story. Damage does help with the c-bills at the end. My CN9A can easily bring in 300 damage, and 600 damage is my newer running average since I've practiced with them more. Have gotten a few 800+ but with the ammo it tops out at roughly that. Quite hard to climb higher.

OTH I point to my post above regarding leading charges and on working as suppression. That will always bring in more wins than worrying about kills.

[Navy Sixes]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 April 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

But you don't need a lock to fire on something in an ECM bubble. LRMs have a dumb-fire mode, and I've seen it used to great effect.

Dumb-fired missiles will not be affected by ECM, just as dumb-fired missiles do not enjoy the tighter spread bestowed by Artemis.

Yeonne Greene, on 23 April 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

You'll have to code in behavior that stops the missiles from spreading inside an ECM bubble when dumb-fired. So that's two additional flags to check for over how they currently work, increasing the complexity.

You're trying to hang on to your Jesus Box. I get that, and I'm willing to have a debate over its merits. But let's not pretend that this is some kind of impossibly complex programming task, when MW:O is already coded to perform this very function every time an LRM+Artemis launcher locks onto a target, registers it as LOS, and fires.a tightened salvo.

Yeonne Greene, on 23 April 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

ECM usually works by just preventing a target lock in the first place.

According to Battletech, Guardian ECM (which is what we have) does not negate LRM locks. That may not make sense to you. Using giant stompy robots instead of tanks doesn't make sense to me, personally, except its a lot of fun for everyone who plays.

Missiles are supposed to be an equal point in the MW:O weapons trident, equal alongside ballistics and energy (rock/paper/scissors).But LRMs are garbage, partially because to have any serious impact on the game (be it as a suppression system or a mech-killer) LRM-mechs are required to pack tons and tons of extra junk just to get them to work as advertised (Artemis, BAP, TAG) This, along with AMS, a defensive system available to all mechs that has no counterpart against ballistics or energy, forces LRM-players to commit to boating. The biggest reason LRMs are garbage is because one 2-ton Guardian ECM can so acutely diminish their effectiveness that it makes them not worth the trouble.

The magic Jesus box makes sense to people who run energy and ballistics. They're having fun. But if you want a game where the weapon categories are balanced, one that's fun for everyone who plays, ECMs that cause a +50% missile spread make as much sense as giant stompy robots.

[Pjwned]

Personally I think an increased lock time would be better, like how it works when targeting an ECM mech outside its bubble except remove the stupid stacking effect that happens currently, but increasing spread of incoming missiles isn't a bad idea either.

[Lily from animove]

Mystere, on 23 April 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Translation: Use Mark 1 eyeballs, see enemy mech, shoot and kill enemy mech.
Alternate 1: Use Mark 1 eyeballs, see suspected enemy ECM mech, shoot and kill enemy ECM mech.



Do real-life electronic countermeasure systems spread enemy fire? Or do they blind enemy radar, or make enemy radar see things that are not there?

oh I didn't know we play a RL game, I always thoguht this was a Batteltech based game.

and even in RL there is no 100% brekaing your radar thing, it will just make it inaccurate. dependign on the systems interaction both have. But the current way is always a 0 or 100 efficientcy. Which is why lrms ae poop, because they are unreliable and MM random dependend.
It's funny that my sensors simply can find a mech with heat vision, but the magic box disallow my heatvision to identify the location of that mech. In RL I only would need 2 camreas for this and not even complex "radar systems". Ecm implemention makes just no sense the way it was done. Not by logic, not by RL, not even by BT lore. And it for the gameplay can break an entire weaponsystem, which is one of a few reason why this weapon system is one of the worst and hardly used above average elo.

Also, that eyeball theory is great, I didn't knew my eyeballs could guilde missiles. It's exactly why laservomit is such meta today, because use mark 1 eyeballs, try to dumpfire lrms at the mech just walking 10m to the side, and not destroy the mech.
End match, use mark 1 brain and unequip lrms. If keeping the enemy mech in the crosshair would cause the missiles to fly to the crosshair location, now that would be working with eyeballs mark 1 and not obsoleting lrm's vs ecm covered mechs.
Dumpfire works only on short ranges when traveltime is short enough to land when the mech is still there, which is unfortunately with the minimum lrm range not feasable. or it works vs sitting ducks, but this is what I do not consider because my setup will not base on the hope of my opponents making dump decisions.


and then, wow, look what ams makes with missiles and what the weight of ams, is. ecm also negates the need for ams, because that one t ecm. All those benefits for you and your team, vs the tonnage ams and its ammo has and thats lousy benefits. How can one consider ecm being balanced. it would be a strong and okish system when only affecting the mech having it. But the current way with the entire bubble thing, the cost/benefit of an ecm system is just over the top of what it should be.

Geist Null, on 23 April 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

because missile spread modifiers leaving the launcher is easy to code, but arriving on target thru XX ecm bubbles is impossible to code.

You need a lock anyways to launch lrms's and if the target locked has ecm, just make leaving missiles having the bigger spread. Then its entirely a "leaving launcher" mechanic and the check routine is not that much higher or truly complex. I guess the current checkroutine if a ecm is applied to teammates and all this is causing quite a lot more complexity.