117 replies to this topic

[Co Starring]

"How we gonna handle this..? The redneck way!

Edited by Co Starring, 10 July 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Rayspace]

Adm Awesome, on 10 July 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

It looks pretty inevitable and even penny arcades video over it was really shaky. Like comparing WoW to League of Legends. It's MUCH easier to avoid Power Creep in a skill based game than it will ever be in an RPG. The big difference is skill based games require the player to change, in other words, to get better at the game, and so the game itself doesn't change itself very often at all. It's more static mechanics, where players repeat over and over in hopes to get better. An RPG like WoW though? You do the exact same thing at lvl 1 as you do at 85, you tap any number between 1-0 or wherever you put your spells. The player doesn't really have to change all that much, maybe get better at strategy like knowing what order to use spells or when to use certain ones, but that's not something you really need to repeat, you just test it a bit, or even just read a guide that figures it out for you. A game like that would be boring if you did the exact same content over and over because you really can't grow as a player like you can in a skill game. The only way to keep a player engrossed in an RPG at that point is giving them more stuff to go through. It's almost simulating linear play style in old RPG's. In a game like, say Final Fantasy, no one complains that the old dungeon they did at beginning of the game isn't back in the game later. You go through levels, and as you beat them, the past ones get obsolete, just as you would throw away weapons in WoW for a more powerful one, you would in a single player linear rpg as well.

So I really only think Power Creep is really that bad in a skill based game like league of legends, or that card game that was in that Penny Arcade video. It shouldn't be encouraged too much in an RPG, but new content, and making old content obsolete isn't the end of the world. However his explanation on the use of "incomparables" is once again in a solution, but he really didn't talk enough on how to use it for an MMORPG. To do so, you'd have to make the RPG simulate that it's having new content, when really treating it like a skill based game. That is, instead of building upwards (raise cap from 60 to 70, then 70 to 80 and so on) to build it sideways instead. Put more classes, more dungeons, more mechanics, change the story around a bit once and a while. These all simulate that your game is changing content, when really you're adding small things but keep the game itself standing still. That new class you're playing as may make the game feel drastically different, but the truth is you're still playing the exact same game. This is probably the only way to really beat Power Creep in an RPG, as hard as it may be. You can only think up of so many classes and dungeons.

Now finally to actually get on topic with MWO. It's a skill based game, so it's really gonna be hard to have power creep. The only "power creep" I can see coming soon is intentional if they decide to do it. What I mean is the Clan technology. If it follows Canon, then of course those mechs are going to have to be more powerful and such, rendering the mechs that come at launch to be obsolete, and maybe it's not a bad thing, say maybe we get to "trash" all our old mechs for a ton of C-bills and cash in on new mechs and technologies. Sure some people will be butthurt that their favorite mech is now obsolete, but it'll get that person to stop playing nothing but that one mech and have fun trying different ones. Maybe you can pay to have your mech "upgraded" kinda like giving it Clan technology such as better armor, weapons, and heat management.

There really isn't any power creep in this game. The game is only a grind if you do not like fighting battles because that is what this game is all about. IS mechs will never become obsolete. An IS mech can have the same total armor a clan mech can have. An IS mech can have the same absolute speed a clan mech can have. The only difference is the weapons, weight, space, and heat. A clan ppc might be a little more efficient but it is still a PPC. Just because you can pack more weapons doesn't mean you can shoot them straight or manage the heat properly. When it comes down to it a 70 ton IS and 70 ton Clan mech going head to head, the pilots skill is more likely to affect outcome than the technology. The Clan mech might have a slight technical advantage but it will come down to pilot skill in the end.

[Adm Awesome]

Harusee, on 10 July 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

There really isn't any power creep in this game. The game is only a grind if you do not like fighting battles because that is what this game is all about. IS mechs will never become obsolete. An IS mech can have the same total armor a clan mech can have. An IS mech can have the same absolute speed a clan mech can have. The only difference is the weapons, weight, space, and heat. A clan ppc might be a little more efficient but it is still a PPC. Just because you can pack more weapons doesn't mean you can shoot them straight or manage the heat properly. When it comes down to it a 70 ton IS and 70 ton Clan mech going head to head, the pilots skill is more likely to affect outcome than the technology. The Clan mech might have a slight technical advantage but it will come down to pilot skill in the end.

I dunno, I am clueless over the lore, just everyone makes it out that Clan stuff is so much better, and I have to admit, ER lasers were my favorite, and I believe that came along with Clan technology as well. Yes it's true that there really isn't much room for power creep in this game, mainly because it's already an old universe, where they've had decades to work out balancing, and so they don't even need to actually "make" anything since 90% has been made in the story and table top game, but you truly can't be 100% sure there won't be Power Creep until the game comes out.

[Lavi]

shadowvfx, on 09 July 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

One of the most effective means I can think of for balancing Clan and IS mechs would be in repair costs. If Clan tech/weapons costs 2x what IS tech does to repair, it will seriously alter the playing style of those using the Clan tech. In the end, I feel that repairing mechs may end up being a great balancing tool for equipment that may be a bit over powered in a match.

hummm

I partly agree with you.
making them expensive to maintain will (IMHO) surely make them tend to play in a safe way..
avoiding brawling, prefering wichever gun layout that is cheapest to maintain.

it can be a balancing factor...
BUT

if clanners are "forced" somewhat to play a certain style... they are not clanners anymore.. They become a consequence of the balancing system.

I prefer, as some other poster here, a BV implemented on mechs/equipment and put BV limits in the engagement system.

Please pardon me the silly numbers.
If the IS forces are allowed a BV of 1000 clanners would be allowed to field 750...

then... if the mechs you have in your drop ship cant perfectly adjust the BV restrictions... you will drop with even fewer BV... for example.. IS 998 Clanners (710).

that would resemble somewhat the bidding system of clanners.. making them choose which mech fit in the BV of the combat

[Haydin]

Adm Awesome, on 10 July 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

I dunno, I am clueless over the lore, just everyone makes it out that Clan stuff is so much better, and I have to admit, ER lasers were my favorite, and I believe that came along with Clan technology as well. Yes it's true that there really isn't much room for power creep in this game, mainly because it's already an old universe, where they've had decades to work out balancing, and so they don't even need to actually "make" anything since 90% has been made in the story and table top game, but you truly can't be 100% sure there won't be Power Creep until the game comes out.

Some neat Inner Sphere stuff:

Rotary Autocannons YEARS before clans (and aren't as bulky, even if they are shorter range)
Reactive/Reflective armor before the clans
Heavy Gauss
Assorted Autocannon and missile munitions, including armor piercing rounds, inferno rounds, swarm munitions, and Thunder LRMs that create minefields
More variety in artillery munitions
Light Autocannons (especially good with those special munitions)
C3 technology (going to be HUGE in this game if they can implement it well)
MMLs (fire both LRM and SRMs AND can have an attached Artemis IV)
Plasma Rifle
Extralight Gyros, Compact Gyros, and Heavy-Duty Gyros
Triple Strength Myomer/physical weapons IF they get implemented
One-shot rocket launchers that have the potential to due absolutely stupid amounts of one-shot burst
Stealth armor


...and that's not even going into any of the experimental stuff. The IS has a version of LRMs, for example, that have almost DOUBLE the range of normal clan and inner sphere long range missiles. The clans have stuff that is just better than lostech, definitely. But the NEW stuff the inner sphere started making after the invasion? The clans don't even have stuff that they can compare it to.

TL;DR: Clan tech might have bigger better numbers, but inner sphere tech fights back with a giant toybox of goodies that is unlike anything the clans can make.

Edited by Haydin, 10 July 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[DARKSUN SG]

Hi I think to deal with the power creeps of clan invasion we just need to deal with the number of players in
Inner sphere and clan

An extract from wiki IS and Clan military organisation ( source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization_(BattleTech))

"From a game balance standpoint, the Clan organizational structure allows BattleTech players to quickly assemble a balanced game of two Inner Sphere Lances (8 Mechs) versus a Star of Clan forces (5 mechs). Superior Clan technology makes up for the difference in numbers, assuming similar weight classes of typical Mechs. Other formations are such as using infantry, vehicles, and even warships typically use the Star organization format."

Just follow this and I think there will be players who will be considering joining the clans

[Rayspace]

Adm Awesome, on 10 July 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

I dunno, I am clueless over the lore, just everyone makes it out that Clan stuff is so much better, and I have to admit, ER lasers were my favorite, and I believe that came along with Clan technology as well. Yes it's true that there really isn't much room for power creep in this game, mainly because it's already an old universe, where they've had decades to work out balancing, and so they don't even need to actually "make" anything since 90% has been made in the story and table top game, but you truly can't be 100% sure there won't be Power Creep until the game comes out.

As long as the Devs do not add non-canon weapons and or do not adjust the damage/heat/etc of the weapons then I do not see the clans as an unstoppable force. As already mentioned, the clans had a system that created forced imbalance, because they thought they were better than everyone else they tended to field less equipment and manpower. This system implemented in MWo will probably reduce the amount of clan hardware versus IS hardware anyway but I still contend pilots various differences in skill will make more of a difference than the minor improvements clan equipment provides.

[Jarvis]

As this is a mechwarrior game, a lot of customers are going to expect to be able to play clan mechs with clan gear with stats based on the tabletop game. I honestly can't see them not having them without alienating a large proportion of the player base.

Clan tech will need to be offset by LosTech and numbers. Mucking around with stats of clantech is just going to annoy a lot of people.

[Sprouticus]

Power creep is not really an issue. Some system however cause others to become obsolete, which will shelve weapons som systems when the new ones are introduced

1) Double Heat Sinks- Its not so much the sinks themselves as the 10 free ones you get in the engine. This is ESPECIALLY true of light and medium mechs which have the crit slots to spare

2) CERLL/CERPPC- This is a pure balance issue. The range and damage is huge.

3) UAC's - The UAC was setup as a response to the double heat sink issues. To make things even they needed to bump ballistic damage. Thus the UAC. The down side (jamming) is only a very small issue compared to other systems with side effects (XL engines)

4) FF Armor- In the space/crit slot trade off, FF is king. Again, especially for light mechs with the slots to spare. They have effectively no downside if you have the crit slots to spare (tactically. Operaitonally/repair-wise they do). At least XL engines have serious trade offs. If all mechs are capable of FF armor, almost no one will use standard armor. And few will use XL engines. The exceptions would be IS mechs with a lot of high crit slot weapons. (AC20, LBX10, Gauss). Most of the clan versions of weapons take less crit slots so FF armor is more viable.

5) Clan LRM- Again this is just a balance issue. CLRM's are so small and light that it is absurd IMO. 1 less crit (20%), HALF the tonnage, and no minimum range. They had to invent Streak SRM's just to make it so a clan player would LOOK at SRM's.

(Im probably missing a couple of things)

Luckily all of these things can be balanced in one way or another. PGI cannot change the tonnage or crit slots for weapons (well they cant raise them anyway). But they can lower them. The can change range. They can change damage. They can change hardpoints. They can change recycle rate. They can change Ammo/ton. They could even change armor points per ton (although I doubt they will).

They will start off with BT values, but as balancing is completed, you WILL see some of those things change. MW != BT. And while I'm a big supporter of using those numbers as a starting point, Im also a big supporter of making changes for the following reasons

1) tactical balance
2) ensuring no mechs or systems are shelved.

If that means some mechs are buffed beyond their actual value in BT, so be it. If that means limiting engine upgrades or downgrades or armor type or engine type to certain variants, so be it. If that means buffing or nerfing weapons systems, so be it.

[Cake Bandit]

That's a pretty good of power creep actually being a problem. Your first sentence is actually the exact thing that makes it a problem. Those things were brought around to get people to buy more stuff/balance a game that escalates in linear fashion.

Guys who show up day 1 still need to be on equal footing with guys playing for months. And if starter gear is obsolete, they're screwed.

Edited by Cake Bandit, 10 July 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Sprouticus]

While I agree that starter folks need to be able to play, saying that they need to be on exactly equal footing is wrong IMO. As I understand it, LoL allows you to have multiple charcters and wile some characters are better than other (or situational or something), a new player does not start with all characters

Same goes with MWO. Older players may have more selection to choose from, but as long as the new players are viable the system shoudl work fine.

That having been said, if hard to acquire weapons/systems do give a tremendous tactical advantage, that could be a problem. It depends on how big the advantage. If a player has to get to a certain rank or get lucky to get access to FF armor for instance, that would be an issue in my mind.

[Proteaus]

A good example of this power creep would be what happened in world of tanks.they introduced the new U.S,
T 110 , making all the other tier 10 tanks in the game obsolete.After that in the clan wars it was whoever had most T 110 won the battles.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Here's another way to balance the tables between IS and Clan, they don't get Skill Trees. They field "superior" mechs and think as a whole they are already better than IS pilots then the skill tree for a Clanner isn't needed. It allows for better balance of the IS pilots experience compared to clan pilots. It still falls in line with canon as well.

[Ogryn]

It's worth mentioning that the tabletop BV2 rules handled most all of this. In general, smart choices in mechs (not wasting points on C3 or MASC) and halfway intelligent tactics, IS mechs can field about 2 to 1 by tonnage. Generalizing the numbers, but that's what it ends up with. And what happens is that while the average clanner can absolutely SMOKE any single IS mech, they need to be able to handle 2x their tonnage. Beyond that, 2x the armor to knock off before the juicy crits come in.

What most matches degenerate into is the clan player capping about half the IS team, but the IS team walking up and smacking six kinds of hell out of the clanner. A GOOD clanner will be a kiting, sniping, range wh**ing b*tch, because if he gets pinned down, he will get stomped by the IS advance. Most clanners don't learn, and get nailed by the IS making sacrifices to close, pin, cripple and beatdown.

Clanners cheat by getting all 3 strengths at once. Speed, armor, and weapons. Where they pay is in the meta game of BV/Cost. IS gets to play Russia to the clanner Germany. While every single stat and weapon of the IS is inferior, they can field more of them at once. And to be honest, most of the IS later game Battle Armor and vehicles are flat out more optimized than the clan. Using them, and the comparatively cheap weapons they mount to supplement your already cheaper mech forces by anchoring lines of advance or playing area denial in an area, while clanners have issues doing the same? It leads to an average IS player winning more matches against an equal skill clanner.

Breaking Zell and above all playing a more vicious metagame is required. Too many times I've seen a fresh clan player bawling about indirect LRM fire smoking most of his Timbers armor before he can even get a solid shot on me, because my Hetzers smoked his one scout.

[ThunderThumb]

IMO implementation of power creep or clan mechs will simply have the vultron effect on the mechs. 3025 or a timberwolf won't matter it will be equally oppportunistic to Frankenstein your old mech with new gear; or your new mech with old gear(heaven forbid). As long as they have some way to balance the GameBreaker Tech idc who has what. If I'm like spiderman in a mech and I get my groin field-goaled by a nub (who can't even manuaver properly) bc of tech, I'll have issues.

[Rixx]

I still think the best way to handle the Clan power creep is this:

The clan invasion starts as a dev/AI event. No clan players to start with. After X months of the event, allow players to join the clans as bondsmen (follow canon as we are all IS mechwarriors to start with right?).

Clan vs IS tech is unfair though, once they join the clans, the battles will be lopsided.

Nope, loyalty! A bondsman has to earn his acceptance into the clan based on his performance, and the game will already have a loyalty system in place. When a clan bondsman starts playing as a clanner, he'll have limited access to certain weaker (possibly non-omni even) chassis and weaker weapons. They preserve the good mechs/equipment for their top warriors, not their stravag Isorla. You could even force a C-Bill (not MC) wipe and perhaps even rob them of non-cash purchased chassis. You're starting over as a clanner, you don't get to bring your sweet warehouse full of equipment (you'd keep anything purchased with MC or straight cash). This would make becoming a clanner a tough descision. Start over (for the most part) or keep your goodies and remain IS.

Now the matches would be IS with IS tech vs Clanners with IS tech or low end clan tech (to start with, IS/Clan tech is not interchangeable, that takes time, so they wouldn't have founder atlases with clan tech). Clanners fight their way up through the loyalty ranks and gain access to better/bigger chassis and more equipment.

As the Isorla's average loyalty levels rise, it triggers certain 'events'. These events would be releases of new IS tech (chassis/weapon systems) that would help keep the playing field level. Another event would be the clan/IS equipment adaptation allowing each others tech to be integrated into each other's mechs. Another event could be limited time availability of the other faction's equipment...so a Davion raid on a Clan weapons cache releases a limited supply of clan LRM20s into the IS market. And for one weekend, IS players can buy clan LRM20s (considerably more expensive than IS version, or even what clans pay for them, but there is a limited supply right). Or a Smoke Jaguar raid on a mech factory netted a large supply of nearly finished Urbanmechs, so now the clans can buy urbanmechs for a short time. You could even have discoveries of lostech to help the IS.

The dev controlled invasion, leading to bondsman with limited access to clan tech, leading to increased IS tech, and eventually interesting universal events would be awesome. It would allow us to relive the events of battletech lore in a first person perspective. A dev controlled invasion would let us relive the horror of going face to face with these 'alien' invaders. The bondsman experience would give the players the feeling and experience of being a bondsman and working your way up to acceptance in the clan. The new tech and stolen tech would give us the experience of the arms race post invasion. It would be very dynamic, and would allow the developers to keep the playing field level between the two factions without serious modifications to either factions tech.

[Steelo]

Great post

[GCValentine]

Rixx, on 10 July 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

Or a Smoke Jaguar raid on a mech factory netted a large supply of nearly finished Urbanmechs, so now the clans can buy urbanmechs for a short time. You could even have discoveries of lostech to help the IS.

I would rather die than let vat-born clanner scum touch even a single precious IS urbanmech.