117 replies to this topic

[nektu]

CCC Dober, on 04 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

You're mistaking this game with another one. There is no need to grind as such. All classes are unlocked from the beginning and you don't have to grind to 'unlock' a new Mech. Just go and buy it either with earned c-bills or cash. You can unlock certain variants, but this won't stop you from customizing the base variant you start out with. Also you don't need to grind weapons as such, same deal as with Mechs.

Of course you will have to grind - selling people a new mech will make them money once for each player. Adding new mechs is a lengthy and expensive process that will happen regularly of course, but that is not enough to ensure a continuous revenue.

So, of course they will add some mechanic that keeps people playing and spending money. And the only way to keep people playing while still spending some amount regularly for an extended amount of time is a grind. Everything else will simply be "over" too early for them.

Edited by nektu, 04 July 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[Voodoo Circus]

so basically there are 2 ways for devs not to mess Clan vs IS am I right?

1- Clan assets will be outnumbered in the battle field to balance the stronger clan mechs/weapons while
staying true to canon where the IS defeated the clans by outnumbering them

2- Clan tech is nerfed to have some disavantages so it can balance with IS tech


What not to do

1- balance Clan tech by cost.(This opens the "Pay to Win" route taking out the Skill portion of the game where premium accounts,larger merc companies/factions can field the best equipment in the game everytime alienating the rest of the community from the "territorial wars", and eventually killing the player base )

2- Dont balance at all. In which case IS tech will become obsolete and no one will use them making the game lose in diversity becoming
a one dimensional gameplay of Mad cat vs Mad cat alphaing each other.

[Kanifeli]

In my opinion this game will not be very affected by the different tecs that will come out.

Ii hate to do it but in this case it is the best game to use as a reference... In WoT you can have the best tech out there gold bullets and all but if you lack the skill you will be dead 1 min into the match. Same will be here. I suck at speed shooting so a small mech is not for me. You give me the best equipment on a small mech and I'll still end up dead with very little contribution to the battle. More than the equipment it is the ability of the pilot to put that equipment into good use that will determine if a battle is even or not.

Also, as mentioned here already, All techs that I know off are balanced in this franchise. you get more power but pay in heat or reload speed or both. And in the case of the TomTom accuracy. The one weapon I could never use properly was that #%&$#&"%$& artillery

[Min0taur]

IMHO, there are 2 ways to deal with the 'Clan' problems I can think of...

1) Clan is AI exclusive:
When released, we will play IS vs IS PvPs, but over time, as the game grow and develop, they may add some kind of missions Players vs AIs (Where the objectives would be more complex and more challenging than a simple 12 vs 12 battle)...
Some missions could be against IS AIs, and some could be against Clan AIs...

2) Clan Mechs and tech could be the 'Ferrari' of your mechbay:
You're IS, but you can buy Clan technology at High cost... And if you use it in battle, the repair/reload bill should be much higher than it's IS counterpart...
In other word, the reward for a battle would be the same (depend on the class: Assault, Heavy, etc...), whatever Mech you decide to choose. But the repair bill, will be much higher if you use Clan tech... So with a IS mech, you're sure to get some kind of profit, whatever the outcome may be. But with a Clan mech, your reward may be too small to cover the repairs, if you take too much damage or if you're destroyed...

Edited by Min0taur, 04 July 2012 - 02:41 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Voodoo Circus, on 04 July 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

What not to do

2- Dont balance at all. In which case IS tech will become obsolete and no one will use them making the game lose in diversity becoming
a one dimensional gameplay of Mad cat vs Mad cat alphaing each other.

please, think about it and NEVER EVER forget this sentence....

[Temu]

"We already have some LosTech. =) LB-20s, SSRM-6s, are examples of LosTech that is still Lost."


that's not lost tech..Star league tech only had srm-2 streaks..they never got to bigger launchers before the fall. Only special tech star league had that isn't available in 3049 would be the Cameleon light polarization stealth system. Inner Sphere developed them by taking what the learned from the lost tech and analysing the clan versions of the models they didn't have.

[CCC Dober]

nektu, on 04 July 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Of course you will have to grind - selling people a new mech will make them money once for each player. Adding new mechs is a lengthy and expensive process that will happen regularly of course, but that is not enough to ensure a continuous revenue.

So, of course they will add some mechanic that keeps people playing and spending money. And the only way to keep people playing while still spending some amount regularly for an extended amount of time is a grind. Everything else will simply be "over" too early for them.

As far as I understand it, the grind has been associated with the Mechs themselves and being a necessity to succeed/reach endgame content. Since we can just pick any Mech and weapon to play, there is none as such.

The only real progress as I see it (or grind if you like) will be the pilot that collects exp in each Mech and variant. You don't need to progress through tiers to unlock new Mechs and weapons. It's up to you if you consider that a real grind. The way WoT handled it, now that was an ugly grind, basically necessitating fully pimped out tanks to do anything worthwhile in their weight class in order to qualify for the next weight class. Repetitive, ridiculous and downright unfair in combination with the Fail Maker and the randomized game mechanics.

The same is not true in this game. Even a bone stock scout Mech can deal the listed damage and do its job. You try that in WoT and you're bound to fail, hence the grind. From what I can see, none of that will be present over here at MW:O and that's excellent news IMO. I'm confident that the devs gonna make it a way more pleasant experience overall. No worries on my end.

Edited by CCC Dober, 04 July 2012 - 04:23 AM.

[Project_Mercy]

I would propose the later clan tech/is tech/tech readouts is what caused the destruction of TT Battletech to begin with. The initial introduction of the clan tech was crazy, but it balanced out somewhat. The issue was the 3055-3056+ changes, basically invalidated a lot of what Battletech was. It appealed to the "Munchkin" crowd, and basically drove the wargammers away to GW games. I used to run BT tourneys at GenCon and Origins with some buddies. I saw it happen right before my eyes. We were able to regarner a lot of the original people by basically restricting our tourneys to 3025 or 3050 tech, but the damage was done. They were tired of Battletech and slowly just gave up on it. To some extent (along with trying to pimp Crucible and other poor choices) this is what killed FASA.

Take D&D? Same thing happened to it. As each version came out, and they kept releasing new material with power creep in it, it basically invalidates the old material, and slowly alienates your original audience. It's a bit like the cable company who discounts your bill for the first 6-months/year, but then it goes up. But while it's difficult to find competition (at least here in the US) to swap data providers, games are a dime-a-dozen. You upset people, and they're gone, forever.

This is the wonder of Games Workshop. They figured this out, and every few years they just toss the system out. The fluff stays the same, crazy things happen, but they toss it out. Agreed, it still upsets people, but those people stick to the old system. They still buy figs.

Power creep is never good for a competitive game. That's the reason sports games codify their environment. Same ball, same padding, same fields, same goal, etc.

This is the irony of MWO. When Smith & Tinker originally came out with MW5/O, they said "We're rebooting battletech to start over with a clean slate." Most of the BT people I knew basically shed a cry of relief and said "Finally, some sanity. We're getting a reset." Then PGI/MWO takes that momentum, but proceeds to take the canon (the broken part) and throw out the TT rules (which actually worked). I'm still buying in so far, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I haven't seen a clear indication that they understand the power creep pit fall and plan to do something about it. If the game isn't designed for it to begin with, they will never be able to patch it in later.

[Seabear]

The ultimate limit to clan tech is in the nature of the clans themselves. First, the clans were never very numerous. Second, the clan bidding system insured that the clan force on any field is the minimum force. Third, the clan sense of honor makes a clanner subject to the IS swarm tactics - at leat for the first 2 years after the invasion. If canon is followed, the clan players will have to bid and/or fight each other for the right to paticapate in combat with the IS forces. As long as the clanners play true to the clan lore, it will be a challenge but not impossible. Remember that IS tactics are TEAM tactics versus the clans duelling tactics.

[Project_Mercy]

Seabear, on 04 July 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

The ultimate limit to clan tech is in the nature of the clans themselves. First, the clans were never very numerous. Second, the clan bidding system insured that the clan force on any field is the minimum force. Third, the clan sense of honor makes a clanner subject to the IS swarm tactics - at leat for the first 2 years after the invasion. If canon is followed, the clan players will have to bid and/or fight each other for the right to paticapate in combat with the IS forces. As long as the clanners play true to the clan lore, it will be a challenge but not impossible. Remember that IS tactics are TEAM tactics versus the clans duelling tactics.

Except what do you do when everyone's playing a jedi?

That's basically what you're saying. It's similar to other meta limits to players, such as Jedi in SWG. It will only cause strife and anger, and in the end it won't actually limit anything, beyond putting a road block between starting players and the majority of the active player base.

There's a lot more people who played MechWarrior then got into Battletech (which at that point was in the 50's), than the other way around. They view IS tech as basically old/crap/something for suckers. That may not be the current case here on the forums, but I'm confident it will be the case when the game goes live. The majority with either want to be clans, or they won't care and want to be the strongest (aka, clan tech).

The easy way out is to go the SWTOR route, and just nerf/boost the others to match. It makes sense, but in practice all it does is deteriorate the reason people play in that world. It feels "off" and over time it just isn't compelling. My gutt says this is what PGI is going to attempt, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[pesco]

How about we associate a score like battle value (BV) with each item and by extension each Mech and by further extension each team. Let the matchmaker sort it out. Problem solved.

I'd also like to see matches with unbalanced numbers of players. Say 3 IS lances (12 players) against 2 Clan stars (10 players). It would be very much in line with canon, too.

[Suko]

One of the most effective means I can think of for balancing Clan and IS mechs would be in repair costs. If Clan tech/weapons costs 2x what IS tech does to repair, it will seriously alter the playing style of those using the Clan tech. In the end, I feel that repairing mechs may end up being a great balancing tool for equipment that may be a bit over powered in a match.

[SomaticMutilation]

o.O

[Wyr]

shadowvfx, on 09 July 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

One of the most effective means I can think of for balancing Clan and IS mechs would be in repair costs. If Clan tech/weapons costs 2x what IS tech does to repair, it will seriously alter the playing style of those using the Clan tech. In the end, I feel that repairing mechs may end up being a great balancing tool for equipment that may be a bit over powered in a match.

That would cause frustrate players, not balanced game. I don't think repair costs would change playstyle. There are quite a few MMOs and since when repair costs was anything but money sink?

[Captain Nice HD]

Theoretically, access to Clan equipment could be restricted to Clan players exclusively, and Clan verses Inner Sphere matches be balanced by making the Clan team much smaller than the opposing Inner Sphere force (say, a Star against a Reinforced Company). It would outright prevent the ClanTech-driven power creep in Inner Sphere verses Inner Sphere matches, without implementing a complicated (and potentially exploitable) balancing system into matchmaking like Battle Value.

Meanwhile, the proliferation of recovered Star League LosTech is much less of an issue because most examples have downsides that help offset their advantages (XL Engines, I'm looking at you).

[Ranek Blackstone]

shadowvfx, on 09 July 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

One of the most effective means I can think of for balancing Clan and IS mechs would be in repair costs. If Clan tech/weapons costs 2x what IS tech does to repair, it will seriously alter the playing style of those using the Clan tech. In the end, I feel that repairing mechs may end up being a great balancing tool for equipment that may be a bit over powered in a match.

This is how it's limited in some of the lore. Merc Companies pay through the bloody nose to get clan tech, and it's a sign of status to be trusted with a clan mech because of it. For the price of a single Clan omnimech, you can buy 2-3 IS battlemechs of similar tonnage.

I also imagine that repairing clan tech is going to a pain for the same reason. Clan Endo steel is better then IS ES frames, because of the reduced bulk. Which means that to replace that seriously damaged leg your Clan omni has, you'll have to either salvage that leg off another mech, or find a clan that will sell you parts. And just think of the mark up, plus contracting a jump ship to actually SHIP it to you.

As I've said earlier in this thread, BV works in TT because all rolls are random. Just because my BV is lower then yours doesn't mean I can't hammer your cockpit from 630m away with a UAC/5 until you die from it. Skill plays a much larger roll then TT would give it credit for.

[Sythiss]

i dont know why i keep reading people saying that making the repair costs higher would balance clan tech in this game. you can litteraly buy in game currency. so... gosh i broke my mech, well five bucks will fix that, I dont have an actual answer as clan tech will be better than IS tech. but i trust that by the time the clans arive i will have practiced in my mech and still take on the clanners just fine. Me and my friends, battlign against all odds, better mechs and standing firm to the last man. Hoahh

[WrentheFaceless]

This is one of the few games power creep doesnt bother me, a skilled inner sphere could take a clanner no matter how good their tech was.

[Captain Nice HD]

WrentheFaceless, on 09 July 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

This is one of the few games power creep doesnt bother me, a skilled inner sphere could take a clanner no matter how good their tech was.

Just because the gap is not insurmountable does not mean that it isn't there. Clan 'Mechs are invariably tougher, faster, and stronger than their Inner Sphere contemporaries. No matter how trivial the improvement, Clan Tech makes Inner Sphere tech obsolete.

Sure, an exceptional MechWarrior in an Inner Sphere 'Mech can defeat a Clan MechWarrior of lesser skill, but in a battle between MechWarriors of equal skill, victory will go to the pilot backed with Clan equipment nine times out of ten. And it's hardly a comfort to Joe Average and I.M. Newbie, either. New players need to test their mettle against foes of equal potential to develop the skills and experience that they will need to combat foes against whom they are at a handicap, but they will automatically be at a disadvantage beyond the gulf in skill against their more seasoned peers if veteran Inner Sphere players are permitted to acquire superior Clan equipment.

[Adm Awesome]

It looks pretty inevitable and even penny arcades video over it was really shaky. Like comparing WoW to League of Legends. It's MUCH easier to avoid Power Creep in a skill based game than it will ever be in an RPG. The big difference is skill based games require the player to change, in other words, to get better at the game, and so the game itself doesn't change itself very often at all. It's more static mechanics, where players repeat over and over in hopes to get better. An RPG like WoW though? You do the exact same thing at lvl 1 as you do at 85, you tap any number between 1-0 or wherever you put your spells. The player doesn't really have to change all that much, maybe get better at strategy like knowing what order to use spells or when to use certain ones, but that's not something you really need to repeat, you just test it a bit, or even just read a guide that figures it out for you. A game like that would be boring if you did the exact same content over and over because you really can't grow as a player like you can in a skill game. The only way to keep a player engrossed in an RPG at that point is giving them more stuff to go through. It's almost simulating linear play style in old RPG's. In a game like, say Final Fantasy, no one complains that the old dungeon they did at beginning of the game isn't back in the game later. You go through levels, and as you beat them, the past ones get obsolete, just as you would throw away weapons in WoW for a more powerful one, you would in a single player linear rpg as well.

So I really only think Power Creep is really that bad in a skill based game like league of legends, or that card game that was in that Penny Arcade video. It shouldn't be encouraged too much in an RPG, but new content, and making old content obsolete isn't the end of the world. However his explanation on the use of "incomparables" is once again in a solution, but he really didn't talk enough on how to use it for an MMORPG. To do so, you'd have to make the RPG simulate that it's having new content, when really treating it like a skill based game. That is, instead of building upwards (raise cap from 60 to 70, then 70 to 80 and so on) to build it sideways instead. Put more classes, more dungeons, more mechanics, change the story around a bit once and a while. These all simulate that your game is changing content, when really you're adding small things but keep the game itself standing still. That new class you're playing as may make the game feel drastically different, but the truth is you're still playing the exact same game. This is probably the only way to really beat Power Creep in an RPG, as hard as it may be. You can only think up of so many classes and dungeons.

Now finally to actually get on topic with MWO. It's a skill based game, so it's really gonna be hard to have power creep. The only "power creep" I can see coming soon is intentional if they decide to do it. What I mean is the Clan technology. If it follows Canon, then of course those mechs are going to have to be more powerful and such, rendering the mechs that come at launch to be obsolete, and maybe it's not a bad thing, say maybe we get to "trash" all our old mechs for a ton of C-bills and cash in on new mechs and technologies. Sure some people will be butthurt that their favorite mech is now obsolete, but it'll get that person to stop playing nothing but that one mech and have fun trying different ones. Maybe you can pay to have your mech "upgraded" kinda like giving it Clan technology such as better armor, weapons, and heat management.