117 replies to this topic

[ManDaisy]

By that point we'll probably see the introduction of alternate ammo for older weapons.

[Squigles]

Tombstoner, on 02 July 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

I am expecting a tier / battle point type of match making similar to WOT. So yea you could run into a clan mech some day but your probably never going to be in a stock 3025 mech

I imagine you very well could be...well, not stock probably. I expect if we ever see IS vs Clan PvP battles (Who knows, Clan may be purely PvE), that it will be numerically unbalanced to provide balance against the tech advantage.

[Kraven Kor]

ManDaisy, on 02 July 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

**** wot. Level 1 mechs should perform like level 1 mechs. The thing with battletech/mechwarrior is level 1 mechs (zombies) can often still kick *** even against advanced tech. One thing no one who hasn't played battletech realizes is that advance tech just lets you have more firepower but never more armor. An Atlas with level 2 tech take the same damage, and only has just as much armor as a level 1 tech Atlas. Its the same way with Clans as well... an 100 Dire Wolf carries the same amount of armor as an 100 ton atlas.

That is not entirely true.

A 3025 Mech with standard armor, internal structure, etc. fitting max armor takes X tons.

A 3058 Mech with ferro fibrous armor, fitting max armor, takes less tonnage to do so. Same total number of armor points *if both designs max armor for their weight*. But the ferror fibrous guy has more tons to play with; but less crits.

I can assure you that, all dice rolls being equal, the more advanced mechs will tear the older mechs apart. ER Lasers did more damage, had greater range, and often weighed a bit less and/or took less crit space than a standard version. Clan Autocannons took less crits and weighed less.

So a Clan mech is going to outrange you, it is going to have more firepower, and is going to devote less tonnage to armor than you. That doesn't make it 'unbeatable' but it does give a serious advantage.

[hornet331]

Lightdragon, on 02 July 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

power creep wont affect this game at all, players will still be able to use their favorite old designs and be able to upgrade their tech as they go to fit their playstyle

It does, when you can make setups that aren't possible with other mechs, or only with big sacrifices. E.g. a mad cat can fit similar weapon power compared to an atlas, while being faster and only loose a bit on the armor side... or the omnipod system...

[Felix Dante]

Squigles, on 02 July 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I imagine you very well could be...well, not stock probably. I expect if we ever see IS vs Clan PvP battles (Who knows, Clan may be purely PvE), that it will be numerically unbalanced to provide balance against the tech advantage.

That's what I imagined for PvP...My guess is that if they denied us access to playing Clans, they would be losing a lot of business right off the bat from hard-core clanner-types. Probably make them a premium service too!
So to help balance Clan vs. Inner sphere would be 12 vs.10 battles (1 Company of IS mechs vs. 2 Clan Stars of Clan Mechs) or less (remember the Clan bidding process is to REDUCE the amount used for a combat...to limit losses and reduce waste).

They will probably also implement some basic tonnage/skill leveling vs. players too so that one side doesn't have any immediate advantage.
Also, the Clans fought other Clans constantly. So don't be surprized to find eventual battles like that too of course!

Edited by Felix Dante, 02 July 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[William Petersen]

Kraven Kor, on 02 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

ER Lasers did more damage, had greater range, and often weighed a bit less and/or took less crit space than a standard version. Clan Autocannons took less crits and weighed less.

IS ERLLas compared to LLas:
generates 50% more heat for around 33% more range. Same damage, same tonnage, same crit-space. They cost twice as much in C-Bills, and about 33% more BattleValue.

Clan ERLLas, however, you're right. Compared to IS LLas(as above):
generates 50% more heat for around 60% more range. 20% more damage, 20% less tonnage, 50% less crit space. They cost twice as much in C-Bills, and twice as much in BattleValue.

[Ricama]

The easiest way to balance clan mechs is to first not allow clan on is mechs, then make every Clanner pick a number between 2 and 10. This is their bid number, matches are aranged by first picking the person with the lowest bid, then filling it out from the highest bid (so the guy who selected 2 will be paired up with someone who picked 10.) people's need for command will probably set most of the clan side at 6-7, with the occasional troll bidding 2-3.

[PewPew]

I don't think this game is going to be as susceptible to power creep as people believe.

Weapon systems, chassis, engines, .... all that is limited to what exists. There is no lvl 1 ERLL, lvl 2 ERLL, lvl 3 ERLL, and so on. There is only the ERLL and the CERLL. The CERLL is better, but that's where it stops. The fundamental concept of power creep is that there's an infinite progression of things becoming more and more powerful. This is not the case in MW.

[ManDaisy]

Kraven Kor, on 02 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

That is not entirely true.

A 3025 Mech with standard armor, internal structure, etc. fitting max armor takes X tons.

A 3058 Mech with ferro fibrous armor, fitting max armor, takes less tonnage to do so. Same total number of armor points *if both designs max armor for their weight*. But the ferror fibrous guy has more tons to play with; but less crits.

I can assure you that, all dice rolls being equal, the more advanced mechs will tear the older mechs apart. ER Lasers did more damage, had greater range, and often weighed a bit less and/or took less crit space than a standard version. Clan Autocannons took less crits and weighed less.

So a Clan mech is going to outrange you, it is going to have more firepower, and is going to devote less tonnage to armor than you. That doesn't make it 'unbeatable' but it does give a serious advantage.

Only on an open field. I assume in MWO, The "clan" or level 2 mech will still be limited by max instant heat, and line of sight. Without superfly radar much of the range advantage can be negated by stealth tactics. Also almost all clan mechs use an XL engine which although not as bad as knockout with an IS XL engine, still carry significant penalties when they lose a side torso.

[Elkarlo]

MadCat
BV (1.0) 2,252
BV (2.0) 2,737
Awesome
BV (1.0) = 1,623
BV (2.0) = 1,875
Hunchback
BV (1.0) = 932
BV (2.0) = 1,054

Very Easy for the Madcat the Enemy can field a Modern 3 ERPPC Awesome AND a Hunchback.

Installing Clan Weapons into a Mech will increase your BV.
So no real Powercreep.

[William Petersen]

Elkarlo, on 02 July 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

MadCat
BV (1.0) 2,252
BV (2.0) 2,737
Awesome
BV (1.0) = 1,623
BV (2.0) = 1,875
Hunchback
BV (1.0) = 932
BV (2.0) = 1,054

Very Easy for the Madcat the Enemy can field a Modern 3 ERPPC Awesome AND a Hunchback.

Installing Clan Weapons into a Mech will increase your BV.
So no real Powercreep.

IF they use a BV system, then yes. That was the primary mechanism of balance between the tech levels (though, it was imperfect), and if they don't (as we have no indication they have) implement it or something similar, then we are in for some 'trouble' (right here in River City). =-/

[Squigles]

Elkarlo, on 02 July 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

MadCat
BV (1.0) 2,252
BV (2.0) 2,737
Awesome
BV (1.0) = 1,623
BV (2.0) = 1,875
Hunchback
BV (1.0) = 932
BV (2.0) = 1,054

Very Easy for the Madcat the Enemy can field a Modern 3 ERPPC Awesome AND a Hunchback.

Installing Clan Weapons into a Mech will increase your BV.
So no real Powercreep.

That of course assumes that BV is used as a balancing factor at all in MWO. It very well could be, but as of now, most of us are totally in the dark about such things.

[Elkarlo]

William Petersen, on 02 July 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

IF they use a BV system, then yes. That was the primary mechanism of balance between the tech levels (though, it was imperfect), and if they don't (as we have no indication they have) implement it or something similar, then we are in for some 'trouble' (right here in River City). =-/

They got a worked over System which they already have(imperfect some know how to trick it out), why shouldn't they use it?

[Solarisjock]

Honestly, I hope they use an economic system to balance it out. make the C-bills earned each match balanced for Tech 1 games. if you want to run your Expensive clan tech gear. Take a CERLL for example, your standard IS LL is about 100k C-bills while if i remeber correctly (at work away from books) a CERLL is 500k C-bills. meaning it should cost 5x as much to repair that super awesome clan tech.

[Voyager I]

That just means that only Premium Accounts could afford to reliably field high-end equipment. That's probably not the path we want to go down.

[wanderer]

CCC Dober, on 02 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

OP: Most of the coming technology is balanced somewhat. Costs were usually the deciding factor in the past.
And then some of the more powerful ones, like XL reactors, Endo Steel or MASC have side-effects. But there are indeed a few items that really stand out from the crowd, such as Omni Mechs in general, electronics in general, LAMS, Light Gauss Rifle, Clan Gauss Rifle, Clan Hyper Assault Gauss (i.e. HAG40) and Rotary AC10/20s. Just to name a few ...

The good thing is that most of them are not exclusive items that work only with certain Mechs. So the power creep can be limited to the economic side of the game.

Rotary 10/20's never existed in canon. And frankly, there is no balance between Clan and IS gear. Nor could their be, other than literally limiting the Clan user's numbers to reduce broken-ness vs. a larger IS force.

[Solarisjock]

Voyager I, on 02 July 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

That just means that only Premium Accounts could afford to reliably field high-end equipment. That's probably not the path we want to go down.

very true, and is not a road i would want them to go down. However, they are in a business to make money somehow, and even with a 150% (or 182% if Premium+ founders mech) i doubt you would be able to make up the difference if it costs 500%

it would make the IS tech 2 stuff into an interesting bracket of mildly affordable, but you will still most likely lose money though.

[Grimarch]

Isnt Double Heat Sinks costing 3 slots not 2, thats why you get the bonus fro the initial 10?

[Project_Mercy]

There is no BV in MWO.

Either they'll try to balanced the Clan gear to the IS gear (aka, nerf it), or they'll just assume everyone's going to mount clan gear on their IS mechs and call it a day. The mechs are already getting.. "nudged" by PGI to make them more balanced between each other, so it's not astoundingly off-base that they just nerf clan tech.

To some extent MWO is the fluff of battletech, stuck on a new mech game, since they've thrown out most of the TT rules and balancing.

[Synra]

The power creep effect doesn't really apply to mechwarrior. If you think it does, you are severely misunderstanding the concept.

I will use world of warcraft as an example here, because we are all likely familiar with it, and it's just about the biggest offender of power creep. Some years ago I leveled a priest. Going from 1 to 60 and obtaining reasonable equipment, I had something like 2,000 HP and 5,000 mana at level 60. But entering into the burning crusade content offered a rediculous step up in equipment power. By the time I reached 70, a mere 10 level later, I had jumped up to about 8,000 hp and 8,000 mana. Then, my stats once again skyrocketed as I entered the Lich King content. By the time I reached 80, I was up to something like 50,000 hp and 30,000 mana. Likewise Cataclysm equipment would have doubled those numbers in a mere 5 levels. These gains are beyond rediculous.

Along with these massive leaps up in power with each expansion pack, the regular patches and balance changes also have a huge impact on player performance in the lower levels. I remember when Scarlet Monestary was difficult. Today if you run it, your team will charge through it like a bulldozer.

This is power creep. Ongoing patches and updates overpowering characters over time.

However, we are talking about battletech here. Most of the rules and mechanics are already pre-defined, decades ago. While players will earn exp, the bonuses of that will be minor. PGI isn't going to suddenly release an expansion pack featuring new 200 ton mechs with equipment that completely trumps all previous stuff.

Sure, clan stuff is better, and it is coming someday, but it's not that big of an upgrade. Your mech isn't going to suddenly jump from 2,000 hp to 50,000 hp in a short period of time, and be completely untouchable by older equipment.

If there is any power creep in MWO, it will be in the form of player skill more than equipment. Some players will become crazy good, but that's on their own merit, not poor game design (looking at you WOW).